john4618 Posted May 18, 2004 Share Posted May 18, 2004 Whats the consensus here on upgrading power cords for processors and amps ??? Should the power cord for both the processor and the amp be upgrade or just the amp or what ??? I just read this on Signal Cables site: An immediate improvement in bass extension and details, as well as a wider and deeper soundstage. Is this actually true ??? Is there such a noticeable difference as suggested by this statement ??? Which brands of power cords are best/recommended ??? (Signal, CobaltCable, others ???) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gullahisland Posted May 18, 2004 Share Posted May 18, 2004 ---------------- On 5/18/2004 5:44:23 PM john4618 wrote: What’s the consensus here on upgrading power cords for processors and amps ??? Should the power cord for both the processor and the amp be upgrade or just the amp or what ??? I just read this on Signal Cables site: “An immediate improvement in bass extension and details, as well as a wider and deeper soundstage.” Is this actually true ??? Is there such a noticeable difference as suggested by this statement ??? Which brands of power cords are best/recommended ??? (Signal, CobaltCable, others ???) ---------------- All a bunch of hooey! I would spend the money on a line conditioner (Monster makes a decent one for $200) before spending a bunch of money on power cords. But even then, I think you could "hear" a greater improvement by putting that $200 to work elsewhere in your system. (better source, etc.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minn_male42 Posted May 18, 2004 Share Posted May 18, 2004 SNAKE OIL!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michael hurd Posted May 18, 2004 Share Posted May 18, 2004 Why stop at upgrading the last 4 feet or so of power wire? Phone your local utility company and ask if they can " upgrade " the wiring form the pole mounted transformer or substation. All a bunch of nonsense if you ask me. As long as the wire is heavy enough to handle the current demands, then it is fine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cluless Posted May 18, 2004 Share Posted May 18, 2004 I agree with Minn male on this one, Snake Oil Inc. is the place to go for power cords and they also carry an excellent array of green markers for CD and DVD enhancement. Frankly, I can think of alot of ways to improve my system or music/dvd collection before I reach a need to improve my power cords. Hey, but to each his own.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D-MAN Posted May 18, 2004 Share Posted May 18, 2004 Well, a controversial subject, cool. One of my first tweaks. Very noticable results which I believe are simply from more available current flow, i.e., less resistance to current flow. I am running AudioQuest AC cables on everything that has the EIC plug (except for my MC C-40 preamp which is hard wired - don't ask me why). Vast improvement over the stock wires (on a $5k piece of gear that comes with a 98 cent piece of 6 ft. crap). No comparison. I would recommend: 1) amplifier - increased low frequency output, better imaging, velvet black space, dead silence, sparkle. 2) source - in my case, the Meridian cd player: clearer, more well defined, less veiled. If you try it and don't like it, then POST HERE and BLAST ME. I know you'll be sold. DM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebes Posted May 18, 2004 Share Posted May 18, 2004 What about older gear such as 70's/80's receivers/amps with the two prong cords. Safety, proper grounding? Got a bunch of this stuff and not sure if I should do it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D-MAN Posted May 18, 2004 Share Posted May 18, 2004 I get a big kick out of all of the nay-sayers here... I don't get it - did you actually TRY this and didn't like the results or what?! Go ahead, beat me up, but I still know better! DM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justin_tx_16 Posted May 18, 2004 Share Posted May 18, 2004 I only upgrade obviously crappy power cables and I just use what computer companies call "server quality" computer cables. They are typically very heavily shielded and not too expensive. I upgraded my HK430's power cable, sounded the same but I felt much better about the quality of the power, got rid of a little interference I was getting from a halogen light that was not far away. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toddvj Posted May 18, 2004 Share Posted May 18, 2004 I purchased an upgraded power cable for my Denon AVR-4802, and felt like it made an immediate difference (less noise, more defined vocals, and overall "cleaner" sounding, although that is hard for me to describe). A friend of mine with the same receiver, who upgraded at the same time as me also reported better video quality when running his game systems through the component video switching, I didn't notice any difference in video quality. I guess you could argue either way whether some high end seperates is any comparison to my Lowly receiver. You might say, if you had better Amp/Processor, it wouldn't make a difference, or you might say, There is no possible way that an upgraded power cord made a difference on that thing. But I'm convinced I heard a difference, so to me it was worth the $. I never even considered bringing it back once I hooked it up, whether anyone thinks it's snake oil or not. Or as we used to say when I sold the stuff "Smoke and Mirrors." I also have high end speaker cables, interconnects, Video cables, and a Good Line conditioner, which I believe make a huge difference, even though I know that lots of people don't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the plummer Posted May 18, 2004 Share Posted May 18, 2004 isn't there some test, like an Ohm Impedence test that could be performed to see if the cables that come stock with the unit were "adequete" for the power consumption of the maximum needs for the unit in question. But lets not forget, if the power from the electric company is inferior, the power cable will make no difference. Remember, your entire audio system is only as good as its weakest link. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wheelman Posted May 18, 2004 Share Posted May 18, 2004 It makes total sense. I mean if your going to upgrade any wire in your system why not the power? The only thing i can tell you is. Have you ever used a crappy extension cord then used a good one? Yep you bet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minn_male42 Posted May 19, 2004 Share Posted May 19, 2004 ---------------- On 5/18/2004 7:57:40 PM D-MAN wrote: I get a big kick out of all of the nay-sayers here... I don't get it - did you actually TRY this and didn't like the results or what?! Go ahead, beat me up, but I still know better! DM ---------------- yes, i did try a couple of power cables from signal cable..... had a couple friends and we did a double blind test comparing it to a generic cable that was the same gauge.... NO DIFFERENCE!!!! if you feel good about your upgraded power cord....then good for you.... but there is absolutely no science behind it..... you cannot prove with any sort of scientific theory or measurement with a 'scope or any test equipment available that there is any difference between your expensive aftermarket power cable and a generic cable of the same guage.... if you want to delude yourself then more power to you...but i have better places to spend my money.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Posted May 19, 2004 Share Posted May 19, 2004 I run my home movie and music reproduction system off a APC UPS and when I first did it, I noticed a slight improvement with my big ole horns, but NOT other loudspeakers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frzninvt Posted May 19, 2004 Share Posted May 19, 2004 I bought a nice Digital power cable from Signal Cable corp, I was going to use it on my Denon AVR-4800 but sold it to my brother in law. I used it briefly with my NAD T163 A/V preamp but it only has the two prong connector and the cable seemed to fit loose in the socked since it was designed for plugs with the ground connection. I did not notice any improvement with it though. I offered it here on the forum as it has not even really been used at a good discount off what I paid for it. It is a 3ft version. I am using it on my Dell PC currently, if you feel compelled to at least give one a try I will sell it to you if you like. It is made of really nice components. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TauRus Posted May 19, 2004 Share Posted May 19, 2004 I agree with minn_male. At one point I was also very intrigued by all this "cable science". Especially, I was impressed by the "scientific" articles on the AudioQuest web site. Luckily I knew a person who was selling AQ products and therefore had an opportunity last year to test the whole package from AQ: a NAG series power cord, YIQ4 component cables and Cobra (I think that was the name but not 100% sure) analog interconnects. I had these cables for about two weeks in my house, testing them on my equipment, listening to my music. As much as I wanted to hear a difference between AQ cables and other more affordable options, I could not detect any - neither in video nor in audio. I mean, if you would compare them to crappy cables you WILL see and hear the difference, but that was not the case in my test setup - the other cables I had from Outlaw Audio and Blue Jeans were as good as AQ. Another friend of mine was also willing to give them a try and his equipment is a lot more high-end than mine. After some time he also reported total lack of any perceivable improvements. So, the AQ package went back to the seller, and I am using Outlaw Auio cables, that are of good quality and at the same time are very affordable. The equipment I was testing the cables with were: Klipsch Ref series speakers (RF3/RC3-II/RB5-II), Denon AVR3803 receiver, Denon DVD2900 player, JVC D-VHS player, Hitachi CRT RPTV, Adcom ACE-615 PLC, Comcast STB. So, I lean towards calling many of those claims as Snake Oil, though depending on what you are upgrading from you might indeed see and hear the difference, but I believe the same will happen with any higher quality products. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artto Posted May 19, 2004 Share Posted May 19, 2004 DUMB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D-MAN Posted May 19, 2004 Share Posted May 19, 2004 ---------------- On 5/19/2004 8:28:14 AM minn_male42 wrote: yes, i did try a couple of power cables from signal cable..... had a couple friends and we did a double blind test comparing it to a generic cable that was the same gauge.... NO DIFFERENCE!!!! if you feel good about your upgraded power cord....then good for you.... but there is absolutely no science behind it..... you cannot prove with any sort of scientific theory or measurement with a 'scope or any test equipment available that there is any difference between your expensive aftermarket power cable and a generic cable of the same guage.... if you want to delude yourself then more power to you...but i have better places to spend my money.... ---------------- Good opinion on a controversial subject with NAMES of less-than-satisfactory performance products. Thank you. I'm serious. This is exactly what this forum needs instead of endless arguments. Your personal experience is helpful and could prevent somebody's cash from flying out of their wallet and into the greedy pockets of those who would exploit the easily "deluded"... I've thought about "not going there", but I have to say: There IS REAL SCIENCE behind it: IF WIRES WERE ALL THE SAME, THEN WHY AREN'T WE ALL USING PURE DC (as Edison wanted) FOR OUR HOUSES? The answer is: DC inccurs TOO MUCH LOSS in long tranmission lines. AC inccurs LESS LOSS (still lossy) in the same transmission lines. However, if wires were all the same then the type of signal would not matter... Therefore, one can assume that SIGNAL variation effects transmission along any given conductor. Losses can be reduced by introducing less resistance to signal variation. For anyone to assume that "a wire is just a wire" should research high power transmission lines, power transformers and substations on your local power grid which presumably you are directly connected to. The hash on your local grid notwithstanding, the short little wire plugged in between your component and the wall outlet is still part of the grid proper and has many limits imposed on its ability to handle current the first of which is its diameter and resistance. The ability to disipate heat means that it is rated in WATTS and has a fixed value of safe current flow (that is a function of current times voltage). If wires were all the same then this would be unneccisary, would it not? Defining meaningful measurements: 1) it depends on what you are trying to measure and how good your equipment is at measuring "it" if "it" can be defined in a meaningful sense, in this case, EXACTLY how is the power supply in your equipment effected by the quality of AC feeding it; that is - how good is your rectified AC power supply to start with? 2) if you are talking the reduction of "loss" of current in a particular conductor, the following values are of importance: RESISTANCE, INDUCTANCE, and CAPACITANCE and of course varying SIGNAL FREQUENCIES 3) the metalurgy and structure and available surface area of the conducting material(s) involved and the resultant levels of SKIN EFFECT in the transmission of current along the conductor - in that current wants to run on the skin-side of the conductor as much as possible 4) the initial quality of the AC source at the wall outlet employed - how do you define that as compared to what? 5) the only reasonable comparison would be a true DC supply that replaces the rectified AC power supply in your equipment Edison and Westinghouse and Tesla all had a field day with this stuff. DM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minn_male42 Posted May 19, 2004 Share Posted May 19, 2004 ---------------- On 5/19/2004 3:58:50 PM D-MAN wrote: There IS REAL SCIENCE behind it: IF WIRES WERE ALL THE SAME, THEN WHY AREN'T WE ALL USING PURE DC (as Edison wanted) FOR OUR HOUSES? The answer is: DC inccurs TOO MUCH LOSS in long tranmission lines. AC inccurs LESS LOSS (still lossy) in the same transmission lines. However, if wires were all the same then the type of signal would not matter... Therefore, one can assume that SIGNAL variation effects transmission along any given conductor. Losses can be reduced by introducing less resistance to signal variation. For anyone to assume that "a wire is just a wire" should research high power transmission lines, power transformers and substations on your local power grid which presumably you are directly connected to. The hash on your local grid notwithstanding, the short little wire plugged in between your component and the wall outlet is still part of the grid proper and has many limits imposed on its ability to handle current the first of which is its diameter and resistance. The ability to disipate heat means that it is rated in WATTS and has a fixed value of safe current flow (that is a function of current times voltage). If wires were all the same then this would be unneccisary, would it not? DM ---------------- all good points..... i agree...all wire is not just a wire..... what i am saying.... and most electronic engineers will say is that all wire of the same gauge and same strand count will perform the same.... no matter what kind of fancy jacket you wrap it in..... 12 gauge standed copper cable will perform the same as the next 12 gauge stranded copper cable - no matter what kind of test that you can imagine or dream up...... in a double blind test...you or i will not be able to tell the difference.... and all of the "virgin copper", "cryogenically aligned copper", "directionally aligned magnetically correct windings", etc. etc. etc. will not make any difference in a real double blind test.... there are hundreds of miles of transmission lines which are most likely aluminum (a lousy conductor compared to copper-but used because of its lighter weight and lower cost) that bring the power to your outlet.... not too mention the 50 to 100 feet of romex in the walls (solid 12 or 10 gauge copper)..... please explain how your 6 foot "magic" power cord can alter or change the power that goes to your component.... ask any of the power cable manufacturers that same question and you get a bunch of nonsense about cable construction, but NONE of them can scientifically explain what their cable does...... in fact, the more you research these cable companies the more and more it looks like a con game.... no real answers are given.... alot of vague generalities... if you were doing a research paper on the patent medicine sellers from the early 1900's that traveled around selling their "miracle" medicines, you would see many similarities..... "Defining meaningful measurements: 1) it depends on what you are trying to measure and how good your equipment is at measuring "it" if "it" can be defined in a meaningful sense, in this case, EXACTLY how is the power supply in your equipment effected by the quality of AC feeding it; that is - how good is your rectified AC power supply to start with? 2) if you are talking the reduction of "loss" of current in a particular conductor, the following values are of importance: RESISTANCE, INDUCTANCE, and CAPACITANCE and of course varying SIGNAL FREQUENCIES 3) the metalurgy and structure and available surface area of the conducting material(s) involved and the resultant levels of SKIN EFFECT in the transmission of current along the conductor - in that current wants to run on the skin-side of the conductor as much as possible 4) the initial quality of the AC source at the wall outlet employed - how do you define that as compared to what? 5) the only reasonable comparison would be a true DC supply that replaces the rectified AC power supply in your equipment" again...interesting points.... but not addressing the real question..... do any of these characteristics that you've just listed affect the amount of power going to your equipment?? if a generic 12 gauge cable delivers a full 15 amps to a power amp..... will your "magic" power cable deliver 16 amps??? "signal frequencies"?...and how does that apply to a 15 amp circuit at 60 hz???? your post raises questions, but offers very few answers for people who don't know or haven't made up their mind about power cables..... i'm in sales..... convince me that your high end power cable will make my system sound better..... with a product backed up by science and tangible benefits.... your "sale" should be easy..... and you have to sell me with facts that you can present here on this forum or links you provide..... convince me and i'll order a cable today! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iXtreme Posted May 19, 2004 Share Posted May 19, 2004 Actually I believe you're wrong on the AC / DC power transmit and loss thing. All hydro companies transport their power on those large metal towers using DC voltage. It transfers cleaner and looses less in the "long" haul. It gets converted to DC before it enters and converted back to AC after it arrives. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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