OT-Any Lawyers Out There

[Flason]

A friend of mine needs some advice. He and his wife separated a little over 2 years ago. She moved back to NY from FL leaving him with the 2 kids, ages 3 & 5 at the time. They have nothing in the way of paperwork describing custody, visitation, child support, or anything. They aren't even divorced or has any paperwork been started on that. Anyway to make a long story short, the kids went up for a visit the 1st week of July and now she won't return them. They were going to school locally and were supposed to start last Tuesday, but now that doesn't appear likely. I understand she has as much right to the kids as he does, but doesn't 2 years of solo support mean anything? I told him to contact the Sheriffs dept locally though they just might say this is a civil matter. What should he do? I know the 1st answer is to hire a lawyer, but what else.

[michaelstano]

You are correct in writing that, without a divorce decree which specifies custody, etc., she has as much right to the kids as he does. That she hasn't contributed support is, at this stage, largely irrelvant, unless he uses the lack of support to try to terminate her parental rights.

The first AND LAST answer is to hire a Florida attorney. He is helpless without a court order.

[Deang]

He screwed up. Royal. He should never have let them go up for an unsupervised visit. His only legal recourse at this point is to file for divorce and sue for custody.

[anarchist]

He needs to move quickly. He can make her life hell. Florida will retain jurisdiction of those children and she will be forced to visit Florida for court, etc. She will also have a difficult time keeping the children in New York if it deprives the father of his rights. She will have to establish an order permitting her to do so. 2 years of abandonment puts her at a severe disadvantage. IF she files in New York before he does in Florida, that disadvantage will be mitigated. He could get an emergency order requiring her to return the children or face kidnapping charges. He needs to move on this now.

[Flason]

I agree about moving quickly. He is so distraught he hasn't even called the police yet.

[MrMcGoo]

The wife abandoned her children for two years. This fact will not go unnoticed by a family court.

The husband is a slam dunk to retain custody, provided he moves quickly and provided the father has no problems with booze, drugs or violence etc. The father needs to bite the bullet and retain Florida counsel asap. This will not be inexpensive. Expect the wife to file in New York, unless he beats her to the punch in Florida.

Delay will look like he abandoned the children and has conceded custody to the mother.

I did forensic work for 12 years on cases of this nature. It is usually a mistake to delay at this point.

Bill

[Piranha]

----------------

On 8/8/2004 3:07:01 PM MrMcGoo wrote:

The wife abandoned her children for two years. This fact will not go unnoticed by a family court.

The husband is a slam dunk to retain custody, provided he moves quickly and provided the father has no problems with booze, drugs or violence etc. The father needs to bite the bullet and retain Florida counsel asap. This will not be inexpensive. Expect the wife to file in New York, unless he beats her to the punch in Florida.

Delay will look like he abandoned the children and has conceded custody to the mother.

I did forensic work for 12 years on cases of this nature. It is usually a mistake to delay at this point.

Bill----------------

I am not an attorney, but I have seen friends go through similar situations. From what I have seen the person that files first seems to be in the driver's seat.

I am in agreement with the others. Any delays in retaining an attorney will only hinder his opportunity to get his kids back. He needs to get one right away. As in tomorrow.

Calling the police will not help help him at all. They will not do a thing unless there is a court order awarding him physical custody. There is nothing for the police to enforce otherwise. She has not broken the law as far as I know. Posession seems to be key at this point. I believe that each parent has as much right to the children unless there is a court order in place.

[Mighty Favog]

This might sound esoteric but the fact that the children were due to be in class this past week may be a strike against her. This is all provided that she hasn't enrolled them in a school in NY. The truent officer in either NY or FL should be interested in their "not showing up" for school, since the kids already have prior history in FL and were (I'm assuming) never withdrawn from school.

[MrMcGoo]

The key principle in custody cases is the welfare of the children comes first. In this case, the mother has perhaps injured her own children twice.

The first time was her abandonment her children along with failure to support her children. The second time is her taking the children under false pretenses.

I had forgotten that school had started in Florida. Interfering in their education is not usually viewed as being in the best interests of the children.

A temporary order awarding him custody in Florida should be the fist objective. He should also ask for child support, even if it is minimal.

This case needs to be filed tomorrow in Florida. Otherwise, this father may end up litigating in New York. Home field advantage is just as important in law as it is in sports, although for different reasons.

Bill

[WMcD]

As a lawyer, I will tell your friend to get a lawyer. That is what I do myself.

For example, when I was buying a condo I did not do it myself. Better to let the people with the specialty do what they do best, day to day.

Obviously, divorce and child custody is loaded with the most elemental emotional issues. Also, such litigation, particularly across state lines, is complicated.

I suspect that your friend is a bit shell shocked, not knowing quite what to do.

There is not going to be any easy, or cheap, resolution.

I hope the fellow will hook up with a reasonably priced lawyer. The local bar association will have a referral list. This may be better than going to the Yellow Pages.

After he has found someone to represent him, some other issues have to be addressed.

Can the marriage be saved. It seems hopeless, but something worth discusssing. Is there another lover. Put it on the table. At least people will know the circumstances; hard as they may be.

Can the husband and wife be civilized and work toward a common goal of resolution with the interests of the children at heart. Shared custody is common solution. They stay with one parent during the school year, and the other for holidays.

Your friend should also consider counseling or a help group. He should not think that he is the only person in the world who has this challenge, and that he is alone. Rather, others have gone through it and survived.

Gil

[Flason]

Unfortunately, he couldn't get an appointment until tomorrow at 2pm. At least he does have the appointment. Thanks for the input.

[Amy]

Tell him good luck from me, sincerely. From what I've seen, unless the mother has broken a law or is a complete degenerate alcoholic/drug-addict/felon/diagnosed insane, she will undoubtedly win. It is the nature of the court system. Not to give your friend a doomsday mentality, but he should read this article so he knows what he could possibly be in for: http://www.fathermag.com/808/GenderBias.shtml

A friend of mine has recently lost every-other-weekend visitation of his kids (divored almost 3 years) simply because he didn't want to reconcile with his ex and it ticked her off. She zinged false accusations about him to the court (funded with his $2000/month child support) that he couldn't afford to fight and lied to his kids about things he'd said about them and things he's involved with. Now he's not even allowed to send them a birthday card nor do they want him to, and he did nothing wrong. It's amazing to me how the system works (or in this case, doesn't).

I hope it works out better for your friend.

[Cal Blacksmith]

It is really a stacked deck against the father. Sorry about your friend, I hope for the kids sake, he wins.

[MrMcGoo]

There is an enormous amount of gender bias in divorce cases. Men usually have an uphill fight.

When a mother abandons her children, she no longer enjoys the benefit of the court's bias in her favor. Actions speak louder than words.

Bill

[Amy]

This is true, but a woman with a good lawyer can come up with anything. She took some time off to stablize her home and career so she could better care for her kids? That's really all it would take. She could easily say she tried for months to contact the kids/visit them etc and HE's the one who's made it hard. This could all turn on him, depending on what kind of person she is. He HAS to file first!

Hopefully, at the very least, she isn't a vengeful vindictive person out to deny him everything.

[j-malotky]

I hate stories like these. Having gone through a painfully long, extensively bitter, and extremely expensive divorce, trying to get a fair placement schedule. Unfortunately, I retain quite a few prejudices in this matter.

Other than the importance of speed that has been reverberated here, I have to echo one point Gill brings up. Please urge him to get into a support group for people with custody problems. Check the Web, there were a lot of groups in my area when I needed help. Having people who can really relate to his crisis will help more that anything else.

What a mess. I really, really feel for your friend.

JM

[damonrpayne]

I've known many people who've gone through some horrible things. The sad fact of that matter is that the courts (at least here in Wisconsin) are _heavily_ biased towards the birth mother, to the point where the father is utterly at her mercy. There are many federally funded studies that outline the importance of the mother figure during child development, this tends to override just about everything else in the courts here.

I agree with whoever said he should prepare for the worst. As was mentioned, the law does not mess around where child safety is concerned. Unfortunately, erring on the side of saftey for the children can create some insanely unfair situations for the accused if they do not have the resources to fight. Losing one's children can do horrific amounts of mental damage, and I would recommend seeing a shrink 1 on 1 in addition to the support group. Students pursuing their PhD in psychology have to particpate in community counciling programs so good help can be had for little or no cost as well. Hopefully the attorney can help him prepare mentally.

I'm somewhat lucky to be with someone whom I don't think would ever try to take my children from me. This subject gets me so jumping mad I can't even see straight! Single fathers are demonized by common misconceptions and subject to draconian laws by state and federal goverments. It may as well be written into the statutes "If you are male, you have no rights, however you will be considered the financial vehicle for raising the children"

Case in point:

I worked with a man who was down on his luck and one day I inquired as to what was bothering him. He had three children with a woman who had just dropped off the map for almost five years. Neither he nor her kids had any idea where she went. She returns after years, decides she wants to be mommy again, and somehow gains status as custodial parent (meaning they live with her) for all three children. He pays her 20% child support, she doesn't work, spends the money to finance her lifestyle as lifetime student. She tells the kids they get cheap birthday gifts because dad has all the money. The kids are old enough now to understand but he doesn't have the money to fight the situation in court.

Case in point #2: I worked for a man during college who found out his wife was cheating on him with one of his employees. Not only was this going on in his house on his days off, but often the daughter would be home (she was around 4) and her mother always told her to be sure not to tell daddy about her visitor. She cheats, has the child help cover it up, and surprise she gets custody when they divorce.

This type of thing ruins peoples lives. Did I mention how mad I get just thinking about my friends who have been worked over by the system?!#@$

Grradfasre2093874932!@"$#%!#@

[MrMcGoo]

The courts must function a bit differently in the state of Washington. Mothers that have abandoned their children are routinely denied custody, if the father is ably represented.

It takes evidence that is properly presented to get the job done, but this is true in all litigation. The he said/ she said game needs to be proven in this state.

Example: One of my former colleagues was given custody of his son for three years while his ex was in law school. At the end of law school, she asked for return of the custody of her developmentally disabled son. Dad kept the custody of his son, but the battle was expensive. The son had developed a bond to his father. The father could also show that he could spend more time with the son, since he was a college professor. These facts were noticed by the court.

I have seen other positive outcomes, when children have been abandoned by the birth mother. When false charges are made, able counsel can usually rebut them. Incompetent cousel unfortunately causes a different result in my experience.

The horror stories usually occur with children that are too young to be allowed to express their views. It is a major danger in this case.

Bill

[Piranha]

I agree with MrMcgoo. I am seeing more and more divirced/single fathers that I know being awarded primary physical and legal custody out here in California based on the actions and lifestyle of the birth mother. Apparently the long standing bias has started to change. A least here anyway.

It is a very unfortunate situation when the parents are no longer able to communicate and make decisions for their children in a civilized manner. Who wants the court system to decide what's the best living arrangements for their children? Certainly not me.

But it is what it is. I wish your friend the best and I hope he has spoken to an attorney or will be VERY soon.

[edwinr]

Get a lawyer asap. One who specialises in family law. Do not delay. Police cannot get involved unless there are matters relating to child abuse etc. - or there is a Court Order in existence and a complaint has been made in relation to a breach.