Cal Blacksmith Posted January 5, 2005 Share Posted January 5, 2005 I hate to put a tangent on this discussion but I think that what we have here is a failure to communicate.... er sorry, is another "wire" discussion. I know I have NO experience with circuit design or construction but isn't DC, DC? and a well designed ample sized power supply will result in the same DC voltage? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted January 5, 2005 Share Posted January 5, 2005 Jim, I think those Shuguang's probably sound pretty good in their own right. At least with the KT-88's, comparing the various Russian and Chinese tubes over time, I always ended leaning towards the Chinese tubes. They all seemed to have some sparkle on top, and not near as dry sounding as the Sovteks and Svetlana's. "The more massive the supply, the less overall difference there will be between SS and tube rectifiers IN THE SAME CIRCUIT. Why not regardless of circuit? Sure, circuits sound different, but if we're just talking about the function itself, it would seem that if properly executed, with sufficient filtering -- why should there be any difference at all? "In most tube amplifiers (not all), regulated B+ supplies completely kill the sound characteristics we are after, unless you were after making your tube rig sound like an SS rig...regulated supplies on tube rigs suck the life out of them and make the treble sound like SS." This is some very undeneenish stuff here:) I think what we are primarily after is the cleanliness in the sound that tubes give us. Regardless of topology, there is this general characteristic in the sound that provides some good distance from what silicone brings. When you say something like, "makes the treble sound like SS" -- what does that mean exactly? I've listend to some solid state that is supposed to sound "tube-like". O.K., it doesn't have that characteristic sharp, incisive sound that pins the ears back a little, and so they say it is "warm -- "like tubes". It shares this one, single attribute, and somehow it is now "part of the family". I think it's a load of crap. Taken as a whole -- it sounds completely different! "Sounds like SS" is the same kind of thing to me. I think it's misleading. I've owned several SS rectified tube amps, including the one I have now -- and none of them have a treble that sounds like SS. SS rectified tube amps may share the single characteristic of being a bit more forward in nature -- but they aren't hashy, filmy, dry, or ear piercing like solid state can sometimes be through horns. A little bit more foward -- but still very clean, and very transparent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guy Landau Posted January 5, 2005 Share Posted January 5, 2005 ---------------- On 1/5/2005 6:12:59 AM jt1stcav wrote: I'd like to eventually replace the Shuguang 300BCs with the Dragons ---------------- They're both made in the same factory by the same tooling and are probably the exact same tubes. "Golden Dragon" is a brand name that was chosen for export purposes only. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted January 5, 2005 Share Posted January 5, 2005 Guy, Guess what tuner I listened to all day yesterday All, This subject has been beat to death around here a number of times ! Start searching and the answers or opinions are there. This is just another subjective part of audio that there is no absolute answer to. I like my tube amps and preamps tube rectified as much because I'm a tube freak then anything else. one major advantage to tube rectification is its easier on components and also in some instances makes the amp much easier to work on. Plus it gives the loons another tube to roll and swear they heard some huge difference Craig Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ben. Posted January 5, 2005 Share Posted January 5, 2005 I changed out rectifiers the other day in my MC30s. I heard a HUGE difference. The right channel stopped oscillating!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garymd Posted January 5, 2005 Share Posted January 5, 2005 ---------------- On 1/5/2005 11:04:34 AM bclarke421 wrote: I changed out rectifiers the other day in my MC30s. I heard a HUGE difference. The right channel stopped oscillating!! ---------------- My New Year's resolution is to ask as many stupid questions as possible. What does a channel sound like when it's oscillating? How would one know if they had an oscillating channel? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted January 5, 2005 Share Posted January 5, 2005 ---------------- On 1/5/2005 11:04:34 AM bclarke421 wrote: I changed out rectifiers the other day in my MC30s. I heard a HUGE difference. The right channel stopped oscillating!! ---------------- Ben, are you serious ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thoriated_Tiger Posted January 5, 2005 Share Posted January 5, 2005 ---------------- On 1/5/2005 11:12:53 AM mdeneen wrote: Note that my comments about "treble sounding like SS" had to do with regulated supplies in tube amps, not SS diodes in tube amps. Different issues. ---------------- The amp I currently use has the most liquid, detailed, defined, refined treble I've yet heared, with absolutely no trace of hardness, harshness, lack of spatial cues, or anything I'd associate with run-of-the-mill SS designs. The clarity and spatial cues in this amp are very reminiscent of a really nice triode single ended, however, it's actually a somewhat bizarre pushpull design using a pair of beamies per channel. And it's fully regulated. The regulating is done by transistors and tubes. If this amp had *any* trace at all of SS-like sound, the Fortes would immidiately alert me to it -- but all I get is just music. The only SS-like behavior in this amp is the woofer control. The fortes are now ruled by an iron fist in a velvet glove. That's the one and only SS-like trait I seek. The rest of it is just magic, as magical as my choke-regulated, 5AR4-rectified Dyna Stereo 70 was -- just more magic, and about 20 times cleaner at any volume with even the most demanding of passages. As for regulation "sucking the life out of tube amps".. I'll also have to disagree there. This one has more bounce, more swing, more mojo, more slam, than just about anything I've heared short of live music. And it's fully regulated. And so's the preamp (tube signal, SS rectification and regulation.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ben. Posted January 5, 2005 Share Posted January 5, 2005 ---------------- On 1/5/2005 11:40:06 AM NOSValves wrote: ---------------- On 1/5/2005 11:04:34 AM bclarke421 wrote: I changed out rectifiers the other day in my MC30s. I heard a HUGE difference. The right channel stopped oscillating!! ---------------- Ben, are you serious ? ---------------- Yup. No more blublublublublublublublublublublublublublublub..... It was intermittent. Every few days it would happen. If I shut things down and waited a few minutes before powering back up, it would go away. A pair of fresh 1960 RCAs are making things happy now. Runs noticably cooler, too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted January 5, 2005 Share Posted January 5, 2005 Hmm have you tested the old rectifiers yet ? I believe your using 5U4's aren't you? Were they known good 5U4's when you started using them? Craig Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yaffstone Posted January 5, 2005 Share Posted January 5, 2005 You'd get ripple from the battery charger if it was left plugged in. Anyhow, all power supplies are basically made this way. Think of the capacitor used to smooth the ripple as a rather small battery. For absoutely clean power, the trick would be to have a large enough battery to supply hours of listening. The environmental issues, weight, cost, and very small difference in performance (possibly detremental as the voltage drops) are all reasons to keep the amps plugged in and make DC voltage in whatever archetecture one is using (tube or SS). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seti Posted January 5, 2005 Share Posted January 5, 2005 ---------------- On 1/5/2005 1:33:04 PM yaffstone wrote: You'd get ripple from the battery charger if it was left plugged in. Anyhow, all power supplies are basically made this way. Think of the capacitor used to smooth the ripple as a rather small battery. For absoutely clean power, the trick would be to have a large enough battery to supply hours of listening. The environmental issues, weight, cost, and very small difference in performance (possibly detremental as the voltage drops) are all reasons to keep the amps plugged in and make DC voltage in whatever archetecture one is using (tube or SS). ---------------- Correct me if I'm wrong but could I go to bestbuy and buy the biggest battery backup power supply they have fully charge it and then run on batteries when I listen to music and also have conditioned power as well as battery supplied power? Whats the difference in power conditioners for audio and computer applications? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ben. Posted January 5, 2005 Share Posted January 5, 2005 ---------------- On 1/5/2005 1:15:48 PM NOSValves wrote: Hmm have you tested the old rectifiers yet ? I believe your using 5U4's aren't you? Were they known good 5U4's when you started using them? Craig ---------------- Not yet, and yes, they're 5u4. I was using 40's or 50's era Sylvanias, 5U4G. They looked and sounded great, bettering the ST style GE I had around at the time. They were purchased as used tubes, and I didn't pay a whole lot for them. The RCA in there now don't seem to be lacking anything sonically, though it's hard to say as I've changed a few things around lately. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted January 5, 2005 Share Posted January 5, 2005 Your corrected UPS type backups are AC not DC. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ben. Posted January 5, 2005 Share Posted January 5, 2005 ---------------- On 1/5/2005 2:01:42 PM seti wrote: Correct me if I'm wrong but could I go to bestbuy and buy the biggest battery backup power supply they have fully charge it and then run on batteries when I listen to music and also have conditioned power as well as battery supplied power? Whats the difference in power conditioners for audio and computer applications? ---------------- Trouble is that the UPS will supply AC from those batteries, so your equipment will still have to convert it back to DC again. I'd imagine the AC provided might be a bit cleaner, though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ben. Posted January 5, 2005 Share Posted January 5, 2005 Figgers. Hmph. So much for my imagination. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marvel Posted January 5, 2005 Share Posted January 5, 2005 Most generate a stepped sine wave. They can be made to put out a vrey, very clean sine wave. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seti Posted January 5, 2005 Share Posted January 5, 2005 ---------------- On 1/5/2005 3:00:49 PM mdeneen wrote: "I'd imagine the AC provided might be a bit cleaner, though. ====== Usually it's much, much worse as a result of very cheapo inverters. mdeneen ---------------- Thanks glad I didn't just assume and just buy one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yaffstone Posted January 5, 2005 Share Posted January 5, 2005 The point is not to replace the sine wave from the wall with one generated by a battery driven inverter. The point to a battery is that it would avoid the need for rectification completely, delivering a flat DC supply to whatever in the circuit needs it. This brings up a point. What is the rectifier used for in a tube amp? Is it used to supply bias to the tube grids? If so it would be really nice to have a stable, ripple free DC supply to start with so as not to introduce power supply ripple on top of the signal. Could someone post a simple tube amp schematic so we can study it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted January 5, 2005 Share Posted January 5, 2005 We don't need to study LOL !!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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