JSJ Posted February 1, 2005 Share Posted February 1, 2005 russ i was not talking or telling you what your spiritual thoughts should be i don't want to start a discussion with you about god all i was trying to do was tell you about a place that might be able to help you with your problems with all the anger you have you can get help from people even if they do not know you if you think with your heart open all the time thats all i am sorry my information thing is wrong i was born in 1947 i am not just 47 years old i am 58 years young just my view jsj Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebse2a3 Posted February 2, 2005 Share Posted February 2, 2005 After following this thread for several days I wanted to add my experience and a couple thoughts FWIW. First I use to own a DBX 4BX unit and this was around the time that CD's where getting started also. I don't remember having any noise issues with my system and I have to say when used with discretion many LP recordings sounded much more realistic with a much quiter background(I can remember especially liking the impact restoration feature). I also noticed because of the low quality of alot of CD recordings even they where enhanced and I do believe made more realistic sounding. Now I don't have the unit anymore because just like a lot of people I've bought and sold equipment over the years learning and experiencing new things in this hobby but to be honest if I had it today I wouldn't hesitate to use the DBX to help make any recording that needed it more realistic. I believe the important thing to keep in mind is that its all "STEREOPHONEY" an "ILLUSION" just a "Tricking of our Brain". So if Stereo, Surround Sound, or Expanders or Equalizers etc. can help to create a more realistic illusion and connect us with the music then what have we done wrong. Are we not just continuing the "Trick". Lets face it Recordings vary all over the place in quality. Even today a recording might sound good in the car but buy and play it on a more revealing system and you can't stand to listen to it. So since most of us have no control over the decisions going into a recording or the equipment used to make it the only control we do have is sometimes trying to undo the damage so that maybe we can get some pleasure from listening to it. There are some artist who's music I really like but I won't buy their recordings because they are just so bad you can't fix them and whats really ashame is future generations won't be able to appreciate their talent because the quality recordings weren't made.Thank goodness some of the old Bluesmen have been recorded by caring labels before they pass on. Ultimately what do you want from this hobby. I've always loved building speakers and amplifiers and trying to understand room acoustics especially as it pertains to my own situation. But ultimately I want that illusion (Believability and Connection To The Music) like the first time I heard the KHorns. So I'm just saying what ever makes your music connect with you (tubes,solid state, CDs, LPs, Mono, Stereo, Surround, Expanders, Equalizers etc.)and brings you pleasure is right for you and if someone disagrees don't feel like you need to defend your decision. Its All An Illusion!!! mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coytee Posted February 2, 2005 Author Share Posted February 2, 2005 ---------------- i am very curious as to what ev speakers were in a home audio place in the late 70's early 80's..... as you mentioned, ev stopped making home speakers long before that..... interesting.... I happen to own a pair of EV Interface D speakers, bought them in 1978 as I recall, perhaps 1979. They were my first venture into buying anything to do with stereo. I still own them. A bit beat up perhaps, but they have what some call a babycheeks (?) tweeter, downward firing woofer and their -3db point is 28 hz at 106 db if I recall. And yes, I DO still have a brochure of this very speaker in my hands I could post to show you the monster. If I recall correctly, they weigh something like 115 or 120 lbs and also use an eq (as part of their design) They had the Interface A, B C & D as I recall, probably others, but at that point, I wanted what I understood to be the BAD BOY (D series) so didn't pay much attention to their other stuff. This was before I knew of Klipsch. I bought my LaScalas perhaps 2 years later. I must say this, and you're gonna love this one... mate the LaScalas with their "mid bass punch" along with the EV's with their true floor shaking abilities and you end up with a really nice FULL sound. Each speaker seems to have a strong point that the other one misses. Interestingly, even though the LaScalas use an EV tweeter (clearly not the same type in the LaScala) if you do an a/b test with them side by side, there is a distinct difference in their sound. The EV's are less in your face, seem more balanced and in my opinion, are quite a fine speaker that will do some SERIOUS hiney kicking. Indeed, there is a sticker on the back side of them next to the inputs stating: Warning, prolonged use of this speaker at its rated power can cause permanant hearing damage Now tell me that ANY 18/19 year old is going to pass THAT speaker up compared to the next (name your brand) speaker that DOESN'T say that Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coytee Posted February 2, 2005 Author Share Posted February 2, 2005 For those that want to see one of EV's offerings back in the late 70's Page 1 of the brochure Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coytee Posted February 2, 2005 Author Share Posted February 2, 2005 Page 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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Coytee Posted February 2, 2005 Author Share Posted February 2, 2005 4th and last page. Again, I have a pair of these, they will literally SHAKE the foundation of your home (don't ask me how I know ) Mine are in suprisingly good condition once you realize that through college & moving about the country, I've moved them probably near 30 times over the years. The one part that's really gotten beaten up on them is the grill. One of them had come apart at the joints and "one day" I was going to simply glue it back together... well, then one of my dogs found it, knocked it off (never chewed on it), and the cat loved to lay on it. I can't seem to be willing to part with them because of how good they sound, yet, I'm not really sure I'll ever have a place for them in any system (now that I have K-horns to go with my LaScalas). The wifey won't much care for "them big ole ugly speakers" in another room of the house... so there they sit, waiting for me to figure out what their future might bring. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coytee Posted February 2, 2005 Author Share Posted February 2, 2005 i am not trying to measure the "quality" of equipment by the market..... what i have been trying to get across is that there is NO MARKET for these devices in the home audio field.... if there was ANY MARKET at all - someone would be trying to sell all of us on buying one..... i think that you underestimate the power of the capitalist system..... you may criticize my debating skills all you want, but it is a FACT that NO ONE recommends these devices in the high end market.... i have asked several times for anyone to list a SINGLE MANUFACTURER that recommends using a compressor/expander with their home audio equipment..... Still Waiting........ Still Waiting....... i could wait forever and you will not find a single example.... if compressors/expanders were a "good idea" in the home audio area.... there would be at least ONE speaker, amplifier, or receiver manufacturer recommending them..... o.k. - show me ONE reviewer in an audio magazine that recommends using a compressor/expander in a home audio system... same result..... the few people on this thread that have claimed sonic improvements by using these devices are far fewer than the number of people who claim to hear improvements from expensive interconnects and speaker cables...... but at least there are discussions about the subject in nearly every audio forum... with proponents on both sides.... as well as reviewers doing professional reviews in audio magazines on the topic... have you EVER read another thread on a different forum in which posters recommended these devices in a home audio system????..... no - i haven't either... and it is not due to the fact that these outboard units are considered "professional" gear..... many, many people use professional parametric equalizers in their home theaters to eq their subwoofers..... behringer and rane are two of the professional brands that many consumers use for this purpose.... Interesting that you brought up equalizers... do you equate equalizers with the same logic/verbosity that you do the expander? (be careful of your public answer) because... If you look at the EV brochure that I've attached (you ARE aware of who EV is since I think you said you sold them and liked them...we might agree that they are at minimum a "decent" manufacturer who uses science & good sense with their products perhaps?) Anyways, you will see that EV indeed DOES have an EQ that they specifically use for their Interface line. You never really stated if you think eq's are to be shunned. I'd venture to guess that you WOULD have put them into the same boat as the dbx had I not shown an article that in fact, refutes your comments, HAD you indeed done so. We'll never really know for sure now, will we. (note that I am NOT suggesting EV supports expanders, just that they (a speaker manufacturer) specifically DO have an inline EQ for their speaker) Who luvsssssss ya baby! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frzninvt Posted February 2, 2005 Share Posted February 2, 2005 Trust me, he hates Eq's with the same passion as expanders/compressors we have been around the block on that one too! Same logic applies. My favorite EV speakers that I have ever heard were the Eliminator's that I heard in little hole in the wall club in Germany circa '86-'89. Do they still make them? I think that they were horn loaded they sounded incredible and I think they were powering them with a Phase Linear amp, it was kind of champange metal colored with two long LED banks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minn_male42 Posted February 2, 2005 Share Posted February 2, 2005 ---------------- On 2/2/2005 9:48:50 AM Coytee wrote: Interesting that you brought up equalizers... do you equate equalizers with the same logic/verbosity that you do the expander? (be careful of your public answer) because... If you look at the EV brochure that I've attached (you ARE aware of who EV is since I think you said you sold them and liked them...we might agree that they are at minimum a "decent" manufacturer who uses science & good sense with their products perhaps?) Anyways, you will see that EV indeed DOES have an EQ that they specifically use for their Interface line. You never really stated if you think eq's are to be shunned. I'd venture to guess that you WOULD have put them into the same boat as the dbx had I not shown an article that in fact, refutes your comments, HAD you indeed done so. We'll never really know for sure now, will we. (note that I am NOT suggesting EV supports expanders, just that they (a speaker manufacturer) specifically DO have an inline EQ for their speaker) Who luvsssssss ya baby! ---------------- electro-voice did use an equalizer in a now discontinued speaker line.... you can see that it was a HUGE MARKET SUCCESS!!! ..... wait - they had to discontinue them because they weren't selling enough of them... just like bose uses a specially designed equalizer that goes with their 901 speakers... what is your point? i never said that equalizers were the same as compressor/expanders.... in fact, many professional and commercial installations use them all them time... as well as high end home theaters... (but you will rarely find a compressor/expander used in the playback chain) the fact does remain though - they are usually not found in high end home audio systems... and even the most costly equalizers can introduce noise into the signal path... i've tried outboard eq's before in my system and found that they are detrimental to the sound in my system.... compressor/expanders are very useful tools in the recording studio and on stage for live music performances..... please notice - these intended uses are all on the front end of the signal chain - NOT on the playback side... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minn_male42 Posted February 2, 2005 Share Posted February 2, 2005 ---------------- On 2/2/2005 10:11:53 AM Frzninvt wrote: Trust me, he hates Eq's with the same passion as expanders/compressors we have been around the block on that one too! Same logic applies. My favorite EV speakers that I have ever heard were the Eliminator's that I heard in little hole in the wall club in Germany circa '86-'89. Do they still make them? I think that they were horn loaded they sounded incredible and I think they were powering them with a Phase Linear amp, it was kind of champange metal colored with two long LED banks. ---------------- frz!! you're back! the eliminators are still made... here is the latest incarnation of these speakers http://www.electrovoice.com/Electrovoice3/products.nsf/pages/Eliminator_i Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dodger Posted February 2, 2005 Share Posted February 2, 2005 So let's sum this up. An audiophile would never use a home unit. Do McIntosh MC-60s, 2 MC240s, a C-20, Sony 2251 LA, with Shure/SME 3009 Series III with Ortofon OM-40 count only as mid-fi? Do 37 years of experience - starting at age 15 as a Roadie, at 16 starting to work the sound, working with Mick G. who has done mix-downs, remixes, Recording for Streisand, Carly Simon etc. Give any Credence. Does The Eastman School of Music Recording Training Count? Being # 1 in the classes mean nothing? Or did I throw my money away at a lousy school? The dbx came along prior to DVD. Not meant to remove ticks and pops. That's Burwen. Does working at the same Studio that does the GM/Buick commercials count? One reason for the demise of dbx for home use was the promise of the dynamic range of CDs. Too bad that went out the window. We are at the point where LPs were prior to the RIAA Equalization Curve. For one company you would set your Pre-Amp one way and so forth. SACDs suffer the same compression, expanders as Standard CDs. There are many manufacturers of Computer programs, Stand Alone Hardware units that are employed. Two amusing favourites are the units the "will give your CD, SACD that analogue sound." and "give your digital Recordings tube-like sound." I'll note that a copy of Sweetwater's Catalogue for reading as they also sell to the public. Tube Microphones are making a come-back. But I only own for Public Sound Use, Shure Beta- 58s as they are the most requested. I still have 6 of the "Buchanan Hammers," an E-V product. Several others for various uses, including E-V Electrets. But for anyone to state that what the owner of a system adds or does not add is not an Audiophile is wrong. I would love to see a CONSISTENT definition of an Audiophile. You do not even need to own a system to be an Audiophile. To answer the original Posted question - leaving all of the rest to be argued out by those who Know, Dr. Who, Rick, Marvel and others I see as having the open minds - others, please tak no offense if I did not name you but I can't include all names- There is no way to figure if the CD has been subjected to dbx units, other Compression units. Nor can they be aware of any and all Expander units. There are too many available of both. The can be aware of one large source of Compression - the Engineer. Their use of all that may be available on the board. Low Frequency trim is a technical compression as you limit certain frequencies while boosting others, that compresses the signal. It is not just EQ. The statement made by the Poster regarding by not using an Expander are we not listening to a degraded signal.? The signal starts to degrade the second it hits the microphone. Different Microphones have different specs, sounds, then if you believe Cables make a difference the sound goes from microphone to cable, to Patch bay, to Board with Engineer's subjective control - need I really go on? And as for Audiophile, Webster's New World College, Third Edition, defines an Audiophile as a devotee of high fidelity sound reproduction on record players, Tape recorders, etc.. There is nthing in there or in two more recnt Webster's about owning. Until standards are set regarding the type of soft and Hard - ware that is used, how much to add or remove, any Equalization, what frequencies, boost or lower and on down the line. The signal is degraded. ALL that we are listening to on our systems is a reproduction of almost infinite factors. We ask our systems to be completely, or nearly complete conduits of all variable as they reproduce the sound. A note on part of the disagreeing: you can be an Audiophile and only own a boom box. As a former card carrying Member of the Musician's Union, I consider myself a Professional. Knowing who for and where ia have worked in Sound, Recording, Mix Down and Home Audio only adds to that. I have used dbx on LPs. I beleve a Standard should be set on the actual Volume levels of CDs and SACDs - both are compressed, dial in signal low and high volume levels, step back and let your computer program do the rest. After that's done you will have served radio first and the consumer second to sound the best. Google search or Dog Pile Search any or all what I have Posted. And order a Sweetwater Catalogue, that will give you the tip of the iceberg as to what is available to The Professionals. dodger Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dodger Posted February 2, 2005 Share Posted February 2, 2005 Minn_Male: I do thank you for noting your prefernces, few do. But, they are not recommended for several basic marketing reasons: Consumers had some problems setting them up. One company is not going to recommend equipment made by another Company. The opposite of your argumemnt is how many manufacturer's tell buyers NOT to use them. Most tell you to use the "cables supplied," in hooking up a system. The whoosh got a very bad rap, rightfully so. A number of purists do not want even a bass or treble control in the pathway - introduces noise. You have your stated opinion on Expanders. That's your right. As it is by others to utilize Expanders. I would never walk into your house and say what should or should not be used unless I bought your system and paid all of your expenses. If you walked into my home and told me what to use, or that noise is added, first I WOULD think about whether I could live with noise if any, in my system. If I could and you persisted in stating noise, I would politely ask you to leave. My intention is not to argue with you, you have a lot of experience and knowledge and seem to be happy with your system. Whether recommended or not, if an individual CHOOSES to use an Expander, it IS their right. I do not use mine anymore. For my own reasons. So both sides be happy that you have a system - life. This pales to the Tsunami Disaster. And anyway life is too short to worry. dodger Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dodger Posted February 2, 2005 Share Posted February 2, 2005 On a serious note, has anuone heard from cluless? Is all well? dodger Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minn_male42 Posted February 2, 2005 Share Posted February 2, 2005 ---------------- On 2/2/2005 11:15:47 AM dodger wrote: ....Whether recommended or not, if an individual CHOOSES to use an Expander, it IS their right. I do not use mine anymore. For my own reasons..... dodger ---------------- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SilverSport Posted February 2, 2005 Share Posted February 2, 2005 ...intersting thoughts...I too believe that if it was REALLY the best thing out there...EVERYONE would be using it...that said...we are all trying to "hear" what we THINK the artist/musician/etcetera was sending...this goes through many channels until it reaches the "end user" (Us) and WE decide if this is acceptable to our listening environment...that's why there isn't one speaker, one amp, one tuner, one processor, etc...if there was one true best sound reproducer...we would all, like lemmings be purchasing it...some do get closer than others and I think that is why most of us here like Klipsch...we CAN have differences of opinion and we can BOTH be right as it pertains to our preferences...nobody here is going to tell me I am wrong...I do however keep an open mind to those who have more EXPERIENCE as their point of view manytimes carries more weight than my bias...just a thought and my .02 Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dodger Posted February 2, 2005 Share Posted February 2, 2005 ---------------- On 2/2/2005 11:56:03 AM minn_male42 wrote: ---------------- On 2/2/2005 11:15:47 AM dodger wrote: ....Whether recommended or not, if an individual CHOOSES to use an Expander, it IS their right. I do not use mine anymore. For my own reasons..... dodger ---------------- ---------------- Those being more CD use and using my alternate, SS (Parasound) plus Cornwall IIs system. Going to Parasound Halo. Did not wish to bother removing it from my TT based system. dodger Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dodger Posted February 2, 2005 Share Posted February 2, 2005 ---------------- On 2/2/2005 12:03:20 PM silversport wrote: ...intersting thoughts...I too believe that if it was REALLY the best thing out there...EVERYONE would be using it...that said...we are all trying to "hear" what we THINK the artist/musician/etcetera was sending...this goes through many channels until it reaches the "end user" (Us) and WE decide if this is acceptable to our listening environment...that's why there isn't one speaker, one amp, one tuner, one processor, etc...if there was one true best sound reproducer...we would all, like lemmings be purchasing it...some do get closer than others and I think that is why most of us here like Klipsch...we CAN have differences of opinion and we can BOTH be right as it pertains to our preferences...nobody here is going to tell me I am wrong...I do however keep an open mind to those who have more EXPERIENCE as their point of view manytimes carries more weight than my bias...just a thought and my .02 Bill ---------------- Excellent post. Obviously a good deal of thought, on target. dodger Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrot Posted February 2, 2005 Share Posted February 2, 2005 ---------------- On 2/2/2005 10:18:05 AM minn_male42 wrote: electro-voice did use an equalizer in a now discontinued speaker line.... you can see that it was a HUGE MARKET SUCCESS!!! ..... wait - they had to discontinue them because they weren't selling enough of them... just like bose uses a specially designed equalizer that goes with their 901 speakers... what is your point? ---------------- When I saw that the EV speaker used its own EQ unit in order to get adequate bass response, I immediately thought of Bose 901 too. This is a well-known easy cheat in lieu of accurate bass response. Why buy Klipschorns when you can EQ KG4s and get as much bass as you want? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gilbert Posted February 2, 2005 Share Posted February 2, 2005 After all the hoopla this thread has produced....I feel like I was on a rollercoaster. Yesterday evening, I was laughing so hard at some of minn's responses that my wife came and chewed me out for making too much noise. . . . But all a really care about right now is ...Does this mean my gear is going to bring me more money???? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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