Coytee Posted January 31, 2005 Author Share Posted January 31, 2005 ---------------- btw - it is spelled "original" ---------------- Well, I got it right once anyways Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minn_male42 Posted January 31, 2005 Share Posted January 31, 2005 ---------------- On 1/31/2005 2:17:27 PM Coytee wrote: As a point of interest, I one day rewired things, guess what I found? I had a certain noise factor with straight tube, low, but discernable. I put 3bx (only) into system with ZERO music playing, noise level when up but when playing music, noice level during the music was WAY reduced relative to the ambient noise ON THE RECORDING as well as background of electronics... the net quiet, was "more black". I put Audio Control (only) into system, introduced no more noticable noise than the tube amp alone. My conclusion was, the 3bx was the additive factor with background noise when at idle. However, I also concluded that when I'm listening to music, it GREATLY reduces the background noise that I otherwise hear from my tube amp ONLY. If others agree, great. If others disagree, great. I don't really care what business others mind, it's their energy to spend. I happen to have done a side by side comparison and feel that there are times that the outboard items DO impact in a positive sense, the sound, for those that disagree, well is all I have for you/them. There are also times, I do NOT have them in the food chain, so I'm not proposing it's a 100% all the time "good thing to do", as you are proposing it's a 100% all the time, "bad thing to do" (relative to noise or other factors). It's your black/white attiude about it that (to me) dilutes your argument. ---------------- good for you!!! my argument is supported by nearly every "audiophile" on the planet.... like i said.... if you "think" it sounds better - Good For You!!! btw - i just noticed over 8 pages of DBX equipment for sale on ebay!... and there are more than a few 3BX units going for about $50.... maybe you could buy three or four of them and lower your noise floor even furthur!!!! ROTFLMAO and unless you can show me ANY reputable audio company/authority that actually recommends using DBX units in a home audio system - all you have proven is that you are very good at deluding yourself!!! maybe i should ask "what color is the sky in your world?" LOL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frzninvt Posted January 31, 2005 Share Posted January 31, 2005 Russ, since it is not obvious to you Gilbert is selling all his DBX gear to finance his new indulgence - Tube Gear! It comes with a healthly price tag (McIntosh tube gear that is) so he needs the cashola. Most people don't use DBX gear because they aren't aware that it exists if for no other reason. The DBX consumer group went out of business in 1989-1990 since they got rich from the royalties of developing MTS/SAP with Zenith. In addition, you continually babble on about noise and artifacts and you use Carver Pro Series (light dimmers) amps as part of your home system with a Pioneer receiver as a preamp - God I cannot think of a worse combination of hash and grain. No wonder you have no interest in DBX gear you already have enough noise issues running those unclean pro gear amps - huge venues don't require the ultimate in clean sound so those amps aren't going to sound as clear as those dedicated for home use. So stop being a Richard Cranium. I am not trying to push the DBX gear on anyone I am just saying it works well for me with what I am doing with it. Like you said if folks want to use it fine! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minn_male42 Posted January 31, 2005 Share Posted January 31, 2005 ---------------- On 1/31/2005 2:35:55 PM Frzninvt wrote: Most people don't use DBX gear because they aren't aware that it exists if for no other reason. The DBX consumer group went out of business in 1989-1990 since they got rich from the royalties of developing MTS/SAP with Zenith. ---------------- actually - one of my points in this discussion - if there was ANY market for outboard processing in the high end home audio market - someone else would have products out there for sale... BBE is trying to market their products at just this area.... but their products do the same thing as all the professional processors out there - they add noise and ultimately degrade the sound in a high quality system.. if you are using cheap speakers with a low end receiver - a BBE Sonic Maximizer might improve your sound.... but put the same Sonic Maximizer in a high quality system and it definitely degrades the sound... the capitalist system has shown us very well that if you have a "black box" that you can tout as a "sound improver", there is someone out there who will buy it (i.e. power conditioners, expensive interconnects, cable risers, etc)..... if there was ANY chance that the "home audio enhancer" could sell to the high end market, there would be companies lining up to market that device.... there simply isn't anyone doing it!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coytee Posted January 31, 2005 Author Share Posted January 31, 2005 shhh... Russ drives Pioneer power... he might not think Mcintosh is up to snuff with it being noisey and all... Oh, and Russ... I forgot to mention in my list, I also have a Yamaha CR 2040 (2x120) roughly 1980 also? that I purchased new AND, I have a Yamaha HT A 2070 that I also obtained new. Still have em both along with some VHS, CD, DVD players that I haven't the foggiest memory about. Geez, the more I type, the more I see why my wife says I got a bunch of STUFF Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shade Posted January 31, 2005 Share Posted January 31, 2005 I thought I'd post as I've used a number of DBX's products in the past. I used to be a big fan of DBX's old line. I've owned expanders from the old alanlog 1 bands up to the 3BX-DS. On my old systems, it opened up the music, and provided a drastic impovement. A number of stereo upgrades later, (Klipsch speakers, & pretty much all the electonics) I started using it less and less. Eventually I did a comparison with it in & out of the system. I felt that what it added to my system was negated by the noise it introduced. A post earlier mentioned it reduced the noise in their system. I'm not sure how that works out, as it is not part of the unit's function. The main fucntion is the expansion, which just makes the quiet passages quieter & the loud passages louder in an effort to improve poor/heavily compressed recordings. The DS series can also increase/decrease transients & channel separation, but it isn't made to decrease noise. For those using them, I'd suggest removing them for a few days (physically, not using the built in bypass) and see how you like the sound. You may find you prefer it out of the loop. If so, great...free stereo upgrade. If you find you prefer it in your system, that's great too. You're happy with your equipment, and what YOU hear. That said, I still use a 3BX-DS in my bedroom system. I find it helps out a fair bit there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted January 31, 2005 Share Posted January 31, 2005 Hey Russ, what is your exact personal experience with the processors in question? I have no opinion either way, and from a neutral outside source you are sounding very childish in your claims. I'm not saying that your claims are invalid, but rather that you could be expressing yourself better such that others might take you more seriously. Any kind of blanket statements in my opinion are completely invalid unless one can justify it with his own personal experiences and detail all the important variables. Yes, there are generalities that can be found throughout the industry, but there never ceases to be exceptions to the rule. Claiming that the majority of compressors/expanders produce noise and then using that generality to claim that the processors in question produce noise is bad logic. However, if you have personally tried them and heard noise for yourself, then that is an irrefutable point...to which it would be interesting to discuss why some people hear noise and others don't. As a side note, noise level isn't even a worthy measurement of how good a system is. As long as noise isn't distracting to the listener doing the listening, then it's a completely mute issue. Obviously you don't care for any noise in your system. Is it fair of me to assume that you have treated the acoustics of your listening environment so as to reduce the noise floor in your room? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JJkizak Posted January 31, 2005 Share Posted January 31, 2005 Gee, nobody badmouthed my Hughes Expander/Compander yet. Well, noise isn't a problem with me because I can't hear anything over 12.5khz and that's at real loud levels. JJK Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coytee Posted January 31, 2005 Author Share Posted January 31, 2005 ---------------- On 1/31/2005 5:37:32 PM JJKIZAK wrote: Gee, nobody badmouthed my Hughes Expander/Compander yet. Well, noise isn't a problem with me because I can't hear anything over 12.5khz and that's at real loud levels. JJK ---------------- JJK... here you go: +_$)($_)#@(*%_#@(*V+)$I(#*#@+)$(+@#/_$)( I just badmouthed your Hughes Expander/compander Welcome to my nightmare lol. Ok, all that said, I just swapped out my Khorns and installed 2 of my Academy's. I did an "a/b" test again. I still maintain, in my system, the way I have it setup, I get net LOWER noise with the 3bx engaged. There are a couple of members here, who live within 15/20 minutes of me. If they'd like to come in and listen critically to it, I'd be happy to buy them lunch for their time (unless that's construable as a bribe? ) It really does work though, at least, in my experience. Peace/love to all that participated in this (one way?) discussion Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marvel Posted January 31, 2005 Share Posted January 31, 2005 Shade, You should get a lower noise level. That was the intent of the dbx noise reduction system in the first place. You said it yourself when you said it made quit passages quieter. If the threshold is set correctly, this is what should happen. The first noise reductions units used a set 2 to 1 compression ratio, which was then expanded on playback as a 1 to 2 ratio. Less setup and maintenance. Dolby used multiple bands with variable compression on each band. It required more alignment to get it to work right. The aftermarket dbx units are working the same way, but not all music is going to benefit from its use. Ever listen to a dbx encoded album. No noise on playback. Never caught on for vinyl lovers though. Not the way Dolby B, C, and HX did for cassette tapes. Marvel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minn_male42 Posted January 31, 2005 Share Posted January 31, 2005 ---------------- On 1/31/2005 5:37:17 PM DrWho wrote: Hey Russ, what is your exact personal experience with the processors in question? I have no opinion either way, and from a neutral outside source you are sounding very childish in your claims. I'm not saying that your claims are invalid, but rather that you could be expressing yourself better such that others might take you more seriously. Any kind of blanket statements in my opinion are completely invalid unless one can justify it with his own personal experiences and detail all the important variables. Yes, there are generalities that can be found throughout the industry, but there never ceases to be exceptions to the rule. Claiming that the majority of compressors/expanders produce noise and then using that generality to claim that the processors in question produce noise is bad logic. However, if you have personally tried them and heard noise for yourself, then that is an irrefutable point...to which it would be interesting to discuss why some people hear noise and others don't. As a side note, noise level isn't even a worthy measurement of how good a system is. As long as noise isn't distracting to the listener doing the listening, then it's a completely mute issue. Obviously you don't care for any noise in your system. Is it fair of me to assume that you have treated the acoustics of your listening environment so as to reduce the noise floor in your room? ---------------- i sold professional/commercial audio for about 4 years at an electronics distributor... DBX was one of the lines that we handled... along with many other brands of compressors/expanders... off and on i auditioned (at home) different units from DBX, alesis, yamaha, behringer, aphex, and A.R.T. for about 6 months i had a BBE Sonic Maximizer (model 362NR), a Rane ME60 graphic equalizer, and a DBX DDP digital dynamics processor in my system.... after i upgraded to klipsch speakers from my old KLH model 17's, the noise from those units was waaaaaaaay too loud... when my old receiver (pioneer elite 24tx) died and i got a new elite 55txi with a carver professional ZR1000 digital amp - the noise floor dropped even more... i tried the same Rane EQ with the new receiver and amplifier and the noise was even more apparent than before (BTW - the DBX DDP processor contains basically the same circuitry as the 3BX except the controls are totally digital... it also had many more features as well) as Shade mentioned.... even using the bypass switch on these units did not really remove them totally from the loop - the noise still remained... you need to physically remove them from the electrical circuit... in ALL the units that i owned and ALL the units that i tried in my system and at work - there was always noise present... i stand by my earlier comments.... if you are actually hearing an improvement (on klipsch speakers) using any of these units then you really need to consider upgrading your electronics and yes my listening room/home theater is acoustically treated - several drapes hung in approprite places, carpeting, and very plush (and comfortable) furniture..... (maybe one of the few benefits of being divorced!!! - i can hang whatever i want on the walls to improve the sound in my room) no SERIOUS audiophile on the planet uses any sort of outboard processor in a two channel listening system..... i might not be able to afford the most expensive equipment, but i can set my system up along the same guidelines as the people who spend the mega-bucks on their systems.... and i have personally heard the damage that these sort of processors do to the sound Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gilbert Posted January 31, 2005 Share Posted January 31, 2005 ---------------- On 1/31/2005 1:46:43 PM minn_male42 wrote: hey gilbert!!!! still waiting to hear why you are selling your DBX stuff??? LOL ---------------- Sorry for the late reply minn, but some of us have to work for a living. Maaaan!, I've have got to hand it to you. You are quite the antagonist. And you sure no how to beat a dead dog, actually, most of you guys going at it back and forth are just beating a dead dog. For christ sakes, open your eyes and your mind.... Does the term different strokes for different folks sound familiar. And as to answer your question, if your truely interested in knowing why I'm selling my dbx gear, then you'll have to go and read the add description for my 5BX-DS. If you have any questions after that then I suggest you read this.... http://forums.klipsch.com/idealbb/view.asp?topicID=57687&forumID=68&catID=19&search=1&searchstring=&sessionID={8B082A8C-C7C6-414E-899A-499E2E6F73D0} And if you still have got it, then I'll spell it out for you. But geeze, please stop beating the dead dog. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minn_male42 Posted January 31, 2005 Share Posted January 31, 2005 ---------------- On 1/31/2005 7:53:47 PM Gilbert wrote: ---------------- On 1/31/2005 1:46:43 PM minn_male42 wrote: hey gilbert!!!! still waiting to hear why you are selling your DBX stuff??? LOL ---------------- Sorry for the late reply minn, but some of us have to work for a living. Maaaan!, I've have got to hand it to you. You are quite the antagonist. And you sure no how to beat a dead dog, actually, most of you guys going at it back and forth are just beating a dead dog. For christ sakes, open your eyes and your mind.... Does the term different strokes for different folks sound familiar. And as to answer your question, if your truely interested in knowing why I'm selling my dbx gear, then you'll have to go and read the add description for my 5BX-DS. If you have any questions after that then I suggest you read this.... http://forums.klipsch.com/idealbb/view.asp?topicID=57687&forumID=68&catID=19&search=1&searchstring=&sessionID={8B082A8C-C7C6-414E-899A-499E2E6F73D0} And if you still have got it, then I'll spell it out for you. But geeze, please stop beating the dead dog. ---------------- we are simply having a discussion about the pros and cons of using professional outboard processors in a home two channel audio system.... SORRY if you feel that is hurting the re-sale value of your DBX unit...... but this is a forum - discussion is what it's all about.... you are right - different strokes for different folks.... you USED to like the DBX unit before other priorities came up (tube amplifers).... i tried a DBX unit (along with other outboard processors).... hey - we're similar.... i also sold my DBX unit on ebay after deciding that it was not helping my system anymore - that it was actually hurting the sound in my system.... i can post my opinions like anyone else.... and if you have inferior equipment, then perhaps some sort of compressor/expander might actually improve the sound in your system Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gilbert Posted January 31, 2005 Share Posted January 31, 2005 Dude, are clearly an antagonist, no doubt. You have no idea what I have, or have had. You obviously didn't read my item description or the recommended thread. And as for this thread hurting the resale value on my dbx equipment... nah, you give yourself far too much credit. Further, I would hardly call $20,000.00 (retail value) worth of Krell equipment inferior, not to mention 2 Khorns, 6 ALK'd Cornwalls, and a nice powersub. And that's just my HTS. Discussion, you say?... What you are doing my friend is not discussing. To have a discussion means to listen as well as to speak. What you are doing is running at the mouth, much like an over flowing toilet that's clogged with.... you know what. You will never hear me disrespect or slam someone else's gear or opinion's just because they're different from my own. I respect most peoples opinions (except yours now). And any day you want to compare system's, I'll be happy to oblige you. If your ever in Tulsa, give me call. I'll be happy to entertain you. Finally, I am out of this thread. Yes, your right, it's because I affraid it's going to kill my dbx resale value. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minn_male42 Posted January 31, 2005 Share Posted January 31, 2005 ---------------- On 1/31/2005 8:47:15 PM Gilbert wrote: Dude, are clearly an antagonist, no doubt. You have no idea what I have, or have had. You obviously didn't read my item description or the recommended thread. And as for this thread hurting the resale value on my dbx equipment... nah, you give yourself far too much credit. Further, I would hardly call $20,000.00 (retail value) worth of Krell equipment inferior, not to mention 2 Khorns, 6 ALK'd Cornwalls, and a nice powersub. And that's just my HTS. Discussion, you say?... What you are doing my friend is not discussing. To have a discussion means to listen as well as to speak. What you are doing is running at the mouth, much like an over flowing toilet that's clogged with.... you know what. You will never hear me disrespect or slam someone else's gear or opinion's just because they're different from my own. I respect most peoples opinions (except yours now). And any day you want to compare system's, I'll be happy to oblige you. If your ever in Tulsa, give me call. I'll be happy to entertain you. Finally, I am out of this thread. Yes, your right, it's because I affraid it's going to kill my dbx resale value. ---------------- LOL another person who can't make his point so he leaves the conversation! BTW - i did read your ad on ebay!....nice ad copy - do you work for the bose marketing department? "I originally purchased this unit from my brother-in-law, with the intension of building myself the ultimate in Audio and Home Theater systems. But I have now changed my mind and I'm going in a different, and simpler direction." so the DBX 5DX-DS is not the unit for the "ultimate in audio and home theater systems"?.... it is either fantastic sounding and does a spectacular job or as you have decided a "simpler" method is a better way to go..... SAME THING I HAVE BEEN SAYING THIS ENTIRE THREAD! "The DBX 5BX is by far the best, most elaborate audio dynamics controller ever built in consumer or professional products alike. Nothing else has ever come close, and without a DBX engineering team around anymore, there probably never again will be anything equivalent." you're right - the old DBX engineering team was the last group of smart engineers on the planet - no one else could possibly produce a product as GREAT as this DBX product! LOL - what a joke!.... even Bose ad copy is not quite so over the top! "Assuming those of you reading this are already aware of the importance of dynamic range control" oh yes - (as i mentioned ealier in this thread) - many, many high end home theaters and high end home audio systems use outboard dynamic range controllers - WAIT - that's right NO ONE USES THESE OUTBOARD PROCESSORS IN HIGH END SYSTEMS!!!! LOL i could go on - but our faithful readers can only stand so much humor in one post!!!! i do enjoy a good conversation about many topics including this one - but no one else seems to be able to back up their comments with any factual information or better yet any references to a manufacturer actually recommends this sort of unit.... hey - i'm not asking for much..... just give me one manufacturer that recommends using a compressor/expander with their equipment!!!!! and as for anecdotal evidence that "it made my system sound better" - i have no frame of reference as to what your system sounds like... yes, i have heard some mega-buck systems that sounded only so-so because of the room and/or a poor synergy between the electronics and the speakers.... the DBX unit that you are selling might very well have improved the sound in your room with your particular system..... but if sonic improvements are possible with "$20,000 worth of krell equipment", then where are the DBX competitors - those companies that could sell this type of unit for big bucks to people who can afford "$20,000 worth of krell equipment"????? and your comment "Nothing else has ever come close, and without a DBX engineering team around anymore, there probably never again will be anything equivalent" is a load of b.s. - if there was money to be made you can be assured that someone would and could do it again and probably even do it better! - it won't happen because there is no market for it! and ultimately since there were "less than 2000" of these 5BX units produced - the rest of can only go out and buy current products - just like the ones that i use to own and the ones that i borrowed from my former employer and tried in my system..... and NONE of those provided any sonic improvement.... just added unacceptable levels of noise and distortion artifacts.... good luck with your ebay sale!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shade Posted January 31, 2005 Share Posted January 31, 2005 "You should get a lower noise level. That was the intent of the dbx noise reduction system in the first place." The expanders aren't exactly noise reduction units. When they make the quiet passages quieter, it is more in regards to volume than noise. They do work pretty similarly, but I think the end result is different. Now their noise reduction units, those were quite nice. "Ever listen to a dbx encoded album. No noise on playback. Never caught on for vinyl lovers though." I have heard DBX encoded recordings on cassette using the DBX NX-40s. Recording from CD, with a good quality cassette & tape deck, the recorded tapes were very close to the CD. Only catch was that you needed to play it back through the NX-40. Actually, if I still used cassettes, I'd probably still be using some of this gear as there was still a definate improvement there. Come to think of it, I've actually got a lot of it laying around. Older series 2 band expander, 1BX-DS, 2 NX-40s, SNR-1 (works great for AM/FM). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike stehr Posted January 31, 2005 Share Posted January 31, 2005 "I guess I dont really want to hear anyone's opinion on the dbx subharmonic synthesizer huh?" I found one at a yard sale for 5 bucks. The power supply was fried, so I made it into a single-ended 6BQ5 amplifier. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shade Posted January 31, 2005 Share Posted January 31, 2005 Kinda off topic here, but anyone ever used DBX's speakers? I've still got a 15" sealed sub, down low that thing shook everything. Wasn't too happy with the upper bass though, it got sloppy. Was using a cheap amp, just wondering if that was typical or a fault of the amp. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coytee Posted January 31, 2005 Author Share Posted January 31, 2005 very clever! but I hope it doesn't add to much noise to your system Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frzninvt Posted February 1, 2005 Share Posted February 1, 2005 Geez, I certainly know why you are divorced! Oh my God! That festering gob under your nose never ceases. If she lasted more than a year I would be surprised. I think you need to find a girlfriend so you can get rid of some of that backed up testosterone, either that or put that overactive imagination of yours to work. As I figured he has NO direct experience with the units in question, the DBX DDP is a piece of pro gear designed and engineering by Harman International and is in no way affiliated with the original DBX consumer group. The components in question here were engineered and designed for home use and are not noisy like some of the pro gear can be. I certainly do not get any noise or artifacts? I guess I just got lucky. The reason the 3BX can lower the noise floor is it functions like a noise gate when in operation pushing the background noise and hiss to below audible levels with incoming signals present. The original 3BX also had stereo activated VCA's so the image tended to wander some, this was corrected in the latter versions by using mono-triggered VCA's. You are correct there are no companies producing these items for home use anymore with BBE's ARS being the exception to the rule. However, the DBX DS series units always draw good money on eBay so there is obviously still a strong market for these units and people are willing to pay. The 5BX-DS sold to US Serviceman overseas for $600-$700 but will easily garner double that when resold. Seems like alot of coin for a noise producing, artifact introducing component. Peace Out! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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