difference of 1 dB...

[Klipschguy]

I'd say B, but its subtle, and I could be wrong. It is so subtle there is no way you could detect it if wasn't a CONTINUOUS signal. How many dB difference would there have to be if the signals were intermittant? ...and not just a single frequency? How about two separate tones played 1dB apart separated by a 10 second pause?!

Negligible.

Remember when Klipsch speakers were about good sound and forgetting about all that inaudible, psychacoustic audiophile nonsense. Whatever. To each his own. Flame away, I won't post in this thread anymore.

[minn_male42]

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On 3/3/2005 7:54:35 PM Klipschguy wrote:

I'd say B, but its subtle, and I could be wrong. It is so subtle there is no way you could detect it if wasn't a CONTINUOUS signal. How many dB difference would there have to be if the signals were intermittant? ...and not just a single frequency? How about two separate tones played 1dB apart separated by a 10 second pause?!

Negligible.

Remember when Klipsch speakers were about good sound and forgetting about all that inaudible, psychacoustic audiophile nonsense. Whatever. To each his own. Flame away, I won't post in this thread anymore.

----------------

i agree totally.... once you start introducing many more variables the difference would be much harder if not impossible to hear...

[WMcD]

The classic texts say that 10 dB is perceived as a doubling of intensity when you're anywhere above 40 dB. Of course 0 dB is a reference, the lowest intensity a young person can detect. I read that the structure in the ear moves less than the diameter of an atom at that 0 dB.

The ear-brain can do some marvelous things. Hams use "CW" which comes out of the radio as a Morse code tone. I'll point out that what you see/hear in Western movies, the click of the receiver at the Western Union office is something a bit different.

However, radio operators can hear CW tones 18 dB under the noise. The noise in such situation is band limited. Still this is pretty impressive number.

It makes you wonder what people can hear with speakers and amps and music.

Gil

AB9BE

[WMcD]

On the other hand, we did ABX testing of wire at the last Klipsch convention. No one there could hear the difference between the presented wires when music was played. We were not allowed to listen to Monster brand wire.

I listened with wideband pink noise off a CD in the ABX and could not hear any difference.

Gil

[BS Button]

B-Falls and jumps back up

[uncle_rico]

Listened to each once, B is the drop. Listened on Sony MDR-V700DJ headphones.

[filmboydoug]

My ears-o-tin couldn't tell the difference. Course, I have just been listening to nightwish cranked.

[colterphoto1]

filmboydoug- you and DrWho need to get together. Nightwish was his 'test' music on my system. More noise I have never heard LOL.

you guys talking about me and the physcho....babble? I'm not trying to be scientist-boy, just trying to make conversation and meaning out of the thread. Perhaps I'm trying to make it something it's not. Agree that in real life situations it's got to be different.

Are you saying that with systems at normal vols that the 3dB rule, then is probably correct. Guess I'd have to agree upon more thought.

Michael

[DrWho]

Well it was definetly B, with a 1dB drop at exactly 3 seconds and then another 1dB increase back to refrence at 6 seconds.

I'll find a good short music clip and do the 1dB thing there too...i guarantee that it'd be way harder to tell the difference

btw, nightwish rocks

[dodger]

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On 3/4/2005 3:52:54 AM DrWho wrote:

Well it was definetly B, with a 1dB drop at exactly 3 seconds and then another 1dB increase back to refrence at 6 seconds.

I'll find a good short music clip and do the 1dB thing there too...i guarantee that it'd be way harder to tell the difference

btw, nightwish rocks

----------------

In order to have a valid study, you will need the following:

A supervisory person for the validity check,

One person to administer the test using: either the same speakers or the same headphones or both,

The speakers and / or headphones need to be calibrated, need the frequency range plotted and the same level, SPL at the same frequencies,

It would have to have a control group,

make sure that no-one in the group utilizes a sound level meter,

No multiple playbacks by either the proctor or the person taking said test,

There must be changes in the order played - I noticed one changed his answer in a post with no Edit comment,

As I noted Webtv only downloaded one tone from the file, knowing webtv, I would have to say it down loaded A, after one listen i could tell that ther was no change, therefore i had to address my answer, then state B,

Ambient background noise must all be the same,

More than 2 pieces should be done, each using multi instrumement/tone or voice for differentiation,

The Hearing Curve of each subject needs to be known, along with SPL sensitivity,

The equipment needs to follow standara hearing test procedure - varying each ear played into, utilization of the same tones at the same level to eliminate "Guessing"

There are more, but this was fun to note whether some could or could not, notice.

Michael noted the change after 8 listenings per the first post by him yesterday.

Others noted listening sevral times.

ColterPhoto1 noting a 3 db change has been published and validated, in numerous articles on Audio and more importantly, ,any Professionally trained, degree holding Audiologists.

It is also recognized as the noticable change in studies performed by OSHA, Agriculture Division , BC, Canada, American and also Canadian Audiologists Associations.

dodger

[krispykoilz]

Thanks for the test DrWho Listening to the two tones with my KV3 (the only speaker I have hooked up on my computer at the present time) I would definitely say a drop is noticable on B, however I did keep listening to A as I thought I heard it being slightly louder by the time the tone finished playing ie. a very gradual increase from beginning to end. I think I've ruled that out though.

[fletcherkane]

Hey JohnnyHoliday,

Its great to find out that there is at least one other forum member who has spent too much time in collegiate theory and ear-training courses. I hated them at the time, buy have been forever grateful for that training.

Playing those two files, through my labtec desktop speakers at work, it was immediately obvious that b had the db drop.

This test is a good way to see if you have lost any hearing from listening to music too loud for too long.

[DrWho]

btw, i forgot to mention that this isn't intended as a "study" by any means...just a fun little exercise. i did the same thing with pink noise, but i could notice a 1/4 dB change! I think it has to do with the fact that the random noise doesn't line up perfectly at the change. well, i made two seperate sound files using NCH tone generator. i need to bust out a mixing program to make it a continuous wave form, but even then i think i will get the same results.

Coming up later this evening: short clip of nightwish with a 1 dB change

[Marvel]

I thought I remembered correctly, but science has come to state we can hear a 1db change, not 3db as has been stated here. The site below has great explanations on the decibel, along with samples (both visual and aural)

http://www.phys.unsw.edu.au/~jw/dB.html

Marvel

[sfogg]

Marvel,

", but science has come to state we can hear a 1db change"

Actually it has been proven that some humans can hear to about 1/3 of a dB change if the change is fairly wide range.. I think covering 3 octaves or more is what is usually specificed.

Shawn

[sfogg]

"i did the same thing with pink noise, but i could notice a 1/4 dB change!"

That isn't outside of the known range of human hearing.

But, did you do it using the PCABX program I listed earlier?

That takes away the possibility that you were influenced by knowing which file was what.

It is also interesting to see how much changing the delay between samples in the PCABX program will effect the outcome of a person's results. Typically results go down the longer a blank space there is between samples... which reinforces how fleeting audio memory is.

Shawn

[minn_male42]

----------------

On 3/3/2005 10:52:00 AM johnyholiday wrote:

true pitch ear means i can listen to a song, an tell you what key it is in, a note an tell you what note it is,a scale an tell you what mode it is ,ie that song is in the key of C, using an ionian scale , with the melody ,or solo tonel center(root note),also know as ear training ,yes you can train your ears, it's even a class were you repeatly pound the same note on a piano, 3 units i think ,or it's a god given gift also......

----------------

the correct term is "perfect pitch"... or "absolute pitch"....

http://perfectpitch.ucsf.edu/ppstudy.html

"What is Absolute Pitch (Perfect Pitch)?

Absolute Pitch, commonly referred to as Perfect Pitch, is an intriguing behavioral trait involved in music perception and is defined as the ability to recognize the pitch of a musical tone without an external reference pitch. To be considered a Perfect Pitch possessor, an individual must have the ability to identify pitches accurately and instantaneously."

http://www.science-frontiers.com/sf102/sf102b07.htm

"Perfect pitch and sundry syndromes

Writing in response to a report in Science by G. Schlaug concerning the brain asymmetry observed in musicians with perfect or absolute pitch* (SF#99), O. Sacks expands the domain of the phenomenon to include other human talents. Sacks says that perfect pitch, though common in musicians, occurs only in about 1 of every 10,000 people. Among the autistic, however, the incidence rises to perhaps 1 in 20. He next moves on to "savants;" that is, individuals with exceptional mathematic, mechanical, musical, and artistic talents, but with serious deficiencies in other human attributes. Calculating prodigies and other "idiot savants" immediately come to mind here. Sachs claims that perfect pitch is is even more common among the savants. In fact, all muscial savants seem to have it. Perfect pitch is also common among those with Williams syndrome, which he defines as:

"a -- syndrome which predisposes to hyperacusis and exceptional development of auditory, musical, and verbal skills, combined with striking visual and conceptual deficits."

(Sacks, Oliver; "Musical Ability," Science, 268:621, 1995.)

* A person with perfect pitch can identify a tone without needing a second tone for comparison. SF#99 = Science Frontiers #99."

[LarryC]

True, though I thought people who lack perfect pitch, especially by those strict definitions, could not be ear-trained to develop it. Good "relative" pitch, the ability to pick up minute differences in pitch between two notes, can perhaps be developed further by ear-training, but I believe that perfect pitch, the ability to identify a note all by itself without a reference, is a different story.

Larry

[minn_male42]

----------------

On 3/4/2005 11:33:13 AM LarryC wrote:

True, though I thought people who lack perfect pitch, especially by those strict definitions, could not be ear-trained to develop it. Good "relative" pitch, the ability to pick up minute differences in pitch between two notes, can perhaps be developed further by ear-training, but I believe that perfect pitch, the ability to identify a note all by itself without a reference, is a different story.

Larry

----------------

you can actually develop a sense of perfect pitch... there is even a course you can buy that will develop your perfect pitch skills....

it includes books and CD's..... i actually purchased this course back when it was only available on cassettes... surprisingly - it does work if you put in the time and effort..

a side benefit is that your relative pitch skills are also enhanced....

http://www.perfectpitch.com/

[dodger]

The notice of 1 db has been via the use of a steady tone.

What is still put forth and is accepted is 3 db, with some experiencing a change at 2 db with a full group.

I presented my post as a basis for Dr. Who to set up a test, and have it validated.

With Grants in excess of $75,000.00 from The New York State Division of Criminal Justice Services, I have had to run a Security Program for Seniors. That had to be able to be duplicated. A received no services other Than A Security Survey. B received, 6 pin Deadbolts, window bars that can open and window pins for double hung windows.

The protocol is for that program and for Dr. Who to set up a publishable treatise, both would be the same.

There have also been studies by some of the questionable hearing assistance device Companies that show the inability to note a 1 db drop is a cause for purchase of one of their units.

Other studies note SPL, ambient air temperature, humidity, Occupations, Any expectations, Place of Residence - a City, in the Country, proximity to noise pollution causing areas such as Airports, Train Stations, Truck Terminals, Expressways. And on.

For the Average person, the accepted norm is still 3 db.

A Google Search noting singular tones, full spectrum Orchestras, Rock Bands note the relation to ability at approximately 3 db.

Before it is mentioned, the studies for 1 db will also show.

I will leave any thoughts from here.

dodger