Into the deep with headphones

[Erik Mandaville]

Craig:

You observed: " IMHO opinion its a fantasy you delude yourself into thinking they have more detail and delicacy when in reality there just playing the mid range accurately everything else is just softened or recessed back. Nothing wrong with liking it but mind you but facts are facts."

This really has nothing to do with deluding oneself or fantastic notions of any kind. Rather, it has to do with another 'fact' -- that people hear differently and have different preferences and tastes. When I listen to music, I don't sit and ponder how 'right' or 'wrong' I am about SET amps being 'better' or 'worse' than more powerful options available. I'm also not out to 'prove' anything.

I agree with you on the account that, as you said, there is "...Nothing wrong with liking it," but the 'facts' about measured response and linearity have really nothing to do with what is ultimately a subjective issue and concern. None of my amps sound rolled off in terms of HF detail and air, although I would say they probably don't have the same kind of LF control and tightness as more powerful amplifiers. You know as well as I that there are constant compromises and tradeoffs in this hobby -- from designing and building amplifiers, to the choices we make concerning components. The SET amps in our system are there because the 'fit' both the majority of the music we listen to and the way we listen to it.

In terms of facts being facts, I would rather that I allow my aesthetic sensibility influence the overall sonic character of our system. In other words, choosing a component based on an intellectual understanding of its measured response is something I'm not comfortable doing. I believe that there is not always a direct correlation between performance specifications and what is actually perceived and heard.

Erik

[NOSValves]

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On 5/23/2005 5:35:29 AM Erik Mandaville wrote:

Craig:

You observed: " IMHO opinion its a fantasy you delude yourself into thinking they have more detail and delicacy when in reality there just playing the mid range accurately everything else is just softened or recessed back. Nothing wrong with liking it but mind you but facts are facts."

This really has nothing to do with deluding oneself or fantastic notions of any kind. Rather, it has to do with another 'fact' -- that people hear differently and have different preferences and tastes. When I listen to music, I don't sit and ponder how 'right' or 'wrong' I am about SET amps being 'better' or 'worse' than more powerful options available. I'm also not out to 'prove' anything.

I agree with you on the account that, as you said, there is "...Nothing wrong with liking it," but the 'facts' about measured response and linearity have really nothing to do with what is ultimately a subjective issue and concern. None of my amps sound rolled off in terms of HF detail and air, although I would say they probably don't have the same kind of LF control and tightness as more powerful amplifiers. You know as well as I that there are constant compromises and tradeoffs in this hobby -- from designing and building amplifiers, to the choices we make concerning components. The SET amps in our system are there because the 'fit' both the majority of the music we listen to and the way we listen to it.

In terms of facts being facts, I would rather that I allow my aesthetic sensibility influence the overall sonic character of our system. In other words, choosing a component based on an intellectual understanding of its measured response is something I'm not comfortable doing. I believe that there is not always a direct correlation between performance specifications and what is actually perceived and heard.

Erik

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Erik,

Give it a rest! Geezzz who said specifications are everything? I said that there is no more mid range detail in a SET amplifier. These amps put the mid range foward and recess the rest back with limited extreme LF/HF frequency response which people percieve as more detailed mid range and delicate HF. I could easily take a PP amp and make it have the same type of sound in fact many vintage amps have this very same sound. Ever wonder why an EICO HF81 is described as being very SET sounding? Once again there is nothing wrong with liking it BUT facts are facts.

Craig

[sfogg]

Rick,

" Depending on the room, there can be a little bass boost there as well. "

That can slow down the drop off but with a horn it couldn't really keep it flat. In a very well sealed up (non-leaky) room room gain is roughly second order when it kicks in. A horn drops off fourth order. So if the room gain matches up well with the K'Horns low end it will basically make it roll off second order instead of fourth.

To really try to take advantage of room gain to extend low end response you need a speaker/sub that rolls off the inverse of the room gain. Sealed subs roll off second order.

"We stopped lynching people from Massachusetts years ago.-)"

LOL, I lived in RI for a lot longer then I have lived in Ma.... does that count?

Is your new room setup? I'd love to come down and hear the K'Horns sometime and see the rework you did on the Las. If you like I could bring down the DC-1 if you wanted to give that a whirl.

Shawn

[Deang]

"Geezzz who said specifications are everything?"

Me.

[Parrot]

Headphones are useful if you need to pick out some particular detail, or if you want to listen to something loud when someone else is sleeping. But as for using them to create a natural presentation of music, forget about it.

But if you insist on not using speakers, try earbuds. They are sort of like SET headphones.

[3dzapper]

"Is your new room setup? I'd love to come down and hear the K'Horns sometime and see the rework you did on the Las. If you like I could bring down the DC-1 if you wanted to give that a whirl."

The new room was eaten up by the IRS this spring.( I have to build one so my in-laws can use my current room when they come to live. It will have to wait now until I sell some land I have on the market. My "old" room does sound rather good on it's own with the Khorns.

I haven't done anything much with the Scala yet except to build uo that other ALK and damp the K-400. I listen to it in my back room mono-a-mano and to test amps and drivers.

Sure you could bring Lex Luther to play with. Although I don't have anything but two two channel set-ups right now, it would be no problem to move the Heresys to the rears. The wires are already in place and I have more than enough channels of amplification. My wife would say WAY MORE!

I'm building a pair of highly modded Mark IIIs. I showed her a mock up of the polished brass, drilled, top plate with the components and tubes just stiitng in their place. "Very nice" she said, "What are you going to replace with them and sell?" Me: "Nothing they are additions". Silence.

Rick

[maxg]

Put me in the camp that thinks a sub would be a good idea here. I have a sneaking suspicion that using a powered sub - or non-powered with a dedicated SS amp driving it (- or 2 come to that) would take a lot of the load of those low powered set amps and really open up the sound.

Might be an idea to get hold of a REL Strata 3 sub which I used to have (and largely regret selling) to play with. The most musical sub I have ever heard - although it might be a little small for your listening room. A couple would certainly do it (or its bigger brother the stadium - if they still make it).

Otherwise the new Klipsch subs are supposed to be really good - and SVS has a very dedicated fan base.

Of course - trading in that woodpecker for a more modern cartridge might also boost the bass response - and there are always room treatments to consider.

That was a confused post wasn't it! I am rambling....

[Audio Flynn]

But if you insist on not using speakers, try earbuds. They are sort of like SET headphones.

And add bass shakers to your recliner. It will not do much for soundstage but it will put some low end in your low end.

[NOSValves]

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On 5/23/2005 8:30:55 AM DeanG wrote:

"Geezzz who said specifications are everything?"

Me.

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Well Who said you know anything?

[Deang]

"Well Who said you know anything?"

You capitalized "who", so you unknowingly answered your own question.

[dodger]

Are we bass fishing now?

[pauln]

Just a thought about how different people hear different sound in the music...

When you have your speakers placed right and sounding good, slide your hands up to the sides of your head and place a finger behind your ear. The presence of your hands there will change the sound a little, but hold on... Now touch your ears from behind and push them forward just a tiny bit, like 1/8th inch. You will notice a sharp increase in the high end. Push them 1/2 inch forward and the high end becomes unlistenable. Now pretend you are a deer or a donkey (ha ha) and cup your ears - unbearable. The purpose of this is to reflect on people whose ears ALREADY DO stick out. If this was your girlfriend (ha ha) you would never agree on the sound of the music. And this is only an obvious and gross physical difference. The more subtle preferences are more difficult to apprehend, but they are the most real to us.

I have attended many orchestral concerts and I don't think the peak SPL in the middle center exceeds 90dB as 90dB sounds on the RS meter.

If you are listening to SPL grater than 90dB you arr beginning to hear distortion and compression by virtue of the working of the ear itself (it is not linear, not distortionless, and not full bandwidth).

[Deang]

"If you are listening to SPL grater than 90dB you arr beginning to hear distortion and compression by virtue of the working of the ear itself (it is not linear, not distortionless, and not full bandwidth)."

That's nonsense.

[dodger]

You have hit some definite points regarding hearing that all must take into account:

Sensitivity: My Mother's hearing was quite sensitive. Mine more than my Fathers.

A reading of 100 db, 90 db on a MACHINE will be perceived differently dependent upon how sensitive a person's ears are,

EDIT: the volume, possible distortion End EDIT

Hearing Curve: As a speaker or a driver will have + / - the human ear does also. Factors such as age, exposure to loud noises or music for extended periods will have an effect on a persons hearing range.EDIT: The hairs, the bones, the shape of the ear canal, the size of the earEND EDIT

Training: A person can be trained to notice clipping, early distortion, while others PERCEIVE it as part of the music.

Knowledge: Actually knowing what the instrument or a close idea of the person's voice should sound like. If all one ever heard in an electric guitar was Jimi Hendrix' rendition of "The Star Spangled Banner," the light chording of "The Wind Cries Mary" would be lost. Much as we lose when listening to instruments and foreign instrumentsEDIT: for the first time, depending upon the musician. END EDIT.

Choice: how loud do we want it.

But that can go back to how sensitive is your ear/hearing?

What is quiet to some is blaring to others and the reverse.

So, as you all know I own McIntosh, I would have no problem in properly listening to a SET amplifier.EDIT I realize this means nothing except to be open minded. END EDIT

And all of the facts, I pay attention as Dean does, but I have to give credence to a person's ability to have hearing that is either more or less sensitive than mine - at low end or high end.

EDIT: actually the peaks and valleys throughout the range. END EDIT

As my wife works in a Hearing and Speech Center, all I would have to do is ask one of the Audiologists to test my hearing and I am positive that they could find any number that are more sensitive or less sensitive. EDIT: Either in sensitivity or a change in the peaks and valleys depending upon frequency. END EDIT

That type of graphing utilizing tones throughout the audible spectrum, with controlled volumes and the person subjected several times with the tones at different levels and different points in the test may show more than any Sound Level Meter or graph of amplifier output.

Or you can just chalk it up to individual preference or choice.

[dodger]

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On 5/23/2005 1:04:58 PM DeanG wrote:

"If you are listening to SPL grater than 90dB you arr beginning to hear distortion and compression by virtue of the working of the ear itself (it is not linear, not distortionless, and not full bandwidth)."

That's nonsense.

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That really cannot be a blanket statement. That would be dependent upon one's hearing. I would say Dean is closer to accuracy.

That would an interesting question for an Audiologist - what frequencies?

[mike stehr]

"If you are listening to SPL grater than 90dB you arr beginning to hear distortion and compression by virtue of the working of the ear itself (it is not linear, not distortionless, and not full bandwidth)."

*That's nonsense.*

Dunno about a little over 90 Db, but you get up over 120 Db and your ears will distort.

Ears do distort, it may vary from individual to individual but they do.

[dodger]

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On 5/23/2005 4:16:25 PM mike stehr wrote:

"If you are listening to SPL grater than 90dB you arr beginning to hear distortion and compression by virtue of the working of the ear itself (it is not linear, not distortionless, and not full bandwidth)."

*That's nonsense.*

Dunno about a little over 90 Db, but you get up over 120 Db and your ears will distort.

Ears do distort, it may vary from individual to individual but they do.

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Definitely

[fini]

"If you are listening to SPL grater than 90dB you arr beginning to hear distortion and compression by virtue of the working of the ear itself (it is not linear, not distortionless, and not full bandwidth)."

If it sounds like a grater, it must be distorting.

[Erik Mandaville]

Craig:

You're right, this whole debate needs to be given a(LONG)rest. My response had to do with the reference to 'facts being facts' and what seemed to be the implication the SET owners are deluding themselves into hearing something that isn't there. As I said in an earlier response to this, I'm sure you're right about the differences in frequency response and performance issues, but the suggestion that people who like SET amps are living in some sort of fantasy regarding the sound quality of their amps just isn't....well...very accurate in my opinion. I've honestly never, ever said they were better, and have admitted on more than one occasion that the perceived bass response noted with a two or three watt amp has in fact been different from something in the range of maybe 30 watts. That is simple physics, which is what I think you were referring to in terms of facts being facts -- please correct that if I'm wrong! You didn't really indicate what you meant, so I was making an assumption; and that may have not been accurate.

Paul: LOL! I've taught middle school too! Earbuds? Nah, but thanks for the suggestion. I listen to headphones during the week when TV is boring. They sound incredible, and have the same sort of allure, I suspect, that all posts dealing with flea power amplifiers seem to have for you...for another opportunity to push buttons. It's really funny to me!

Rick: If you even have some old speakers around, do try the Lexicon if you have the chance! It's really a neat component!

Erik

[Parrot]

Erik,

Since you've mentioned that the $99 TEAC digital amp is, in your opinion, at least as good as any of your other amps, why not unload all of your expensive SET amps?