Audio Flynn Posted April 30, 2005 Share Posted April 30, 2005 palpable presence of the musicians exquisite low-level detail perfect timing of the attack and decay of each note above all, the truth of timbre and the sheer beauty of the music ++++++++++++++++++++ Funny adjectives truth palpable exquisite perfect( not a word i use except to describe the female form that God has given us) PP camp says SET has not enough horse power. SET says PP lacks realism. Maybe this will never be solved; but it is for me. VRD and Blueberry! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg928gts Posted April 30, 2005 Share Posted April 30, 2005 Geesh Craig, look how much time you made me spend answering your questions! I don't mind, but I do feel that what I said stands on its own without the need for clarity. I also think that this SET vs. PP debate thing has been beat to death many times before on this forum, which is why my post didn't have more details. I feel compelled, as I always do, to add my .02 to these SET threads because I think I may be a little different than your average SET owner, and I want others to know about my experience with SET. The characterization of a SET owner on this forum is one who listens to classical or light jazz at moderate volume levels. I, on the other hand, like to listen to music loud enough to really feel it, certainly higher than moderate levels. Among other types, I enjoy modern music with bands that have a drummer using a full drum set, electric bass quitar, electric guitar, keyboards, etc..., fully mic-ed up with a studio-produced sound - Rock and roll music, and rock-based music. I prefer music that is clean and easy to hear all the parts of, and I appreciate the work that a good sound engineer does to produce a kick drum sound that has all the elements of impact, with solid low-end that isn't boomy. I love it when that kick drum "loads" the room through my Khorns and I physically feel it. And I do, even with my flea-sized amps, which is why I don't understand some of the descriptions presented here on this forum about SET amps, like the original post in this thread. I just don't think those people have had the opportunity to hear what a good SET/Khorn system can sound like. Over the last year and a half, I've stuck with the SET topology because it is the best quality of sound that I've ever heard from any system, anywhere. The limitations that I speak of are overall volume level and bass impact. But these are minor limitations, not important enough to take me away from the SET topology even though I have the choice of any type of amplifier I want. The only reason I talk about limitations or wanting more bass or volume, is because I'm like any other audiophile I've ever met, always searching for more, never satisfied. But that is not meant to take away from what I already have. My background is in live sound production, I did it for 10 years on the road all over New England. I know, as any live sound engineer does, what a live rock band sounds like raw, and I understand what it takes to get that sound under control and conveyed through a sound system to an audience. I don't like to listen to noisy rock music on my system. I very much like the music of Aerosmith, but their recent recordings are noisy, very poorly done in my opinion. I can listen to their music casually, on a car radio or boom box on a jobsite. But as an audiophile, I don't like listening to their music on any type of system. It's not the system, it's the way the music is recorded. Some rock music is noisy, and the artists intend for it to be. That's just not my thing. AC/DC on the other hand is just as hard rock, but much better recorded, and a cleaner sound than Aerosmith. That kind of sound is much more enjoyable to me. It has nothing to do with hard rock vs. soft rock vs. jazz rock, etc... but everything to do with recording quality. I would submit to anyone, that the most recent Steely Dan cd is just as full of sound, impact, and bass, as the most recent Aerosmith cd. It isn't any more difficult for a SET amp to reproduce Aerosmith than it is Steely Dan, but the end result is something completely different when the recording is clean, tight, well-defined. When Eric Fritzeen sat down in my living room and listened to Steely Dan, Dire Straits, Spyro Gyra, and a few other of my choice-sounding cd's, he left much more impressed than if I had chosen Aerosmith, or the most recent offerings from Bruce Springstein or The Who, all of which are not very well recorded. A really good PP amp is not going to make Aerosmith sound better than my SET amps do, in fact, it would just end up being louder, noisy rock music. I remain open to the idea of finding, or building a PP amp that I can enjoy as much as my SET amps. I'm also experimenting with other ideas as much as I can with my limited time. I consider it all part of the audio hobby. But right now, on a quiet night in my house, with the lights dimmed, 2A3 tubes glowing, and a well-recorded cd in the transport, I'm in audio heaven. There is no compression, the sound doesn't run together, there's no lack of dynamics. I'm not trying to discern the nuances of a particular oboe sound. I'm usually air-drumming, feeling the kick and shaking my head in amazement at the sound quality of some of the passages. The room is loaded with bass and it's loud enough that my wife won't stay, and you can't talk over it. That's my SET experience. Greg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leok Posted April 30, 2005 Share Posted April 30, 2005 A late entry, but I've been busy. Addressing the notion: "SET offers a unique and somewhat tiny window" In my opinion, all amps offer a unique and somewhat tiny window. I find myself having to decide which window is best for what I want to hear in music I listen to. For me, volume is pretty far down in priority. Low level detail: accurate sibilance, upper harmonics, non-harmonic instrument material response (that woody sound in a violin or cello for example), and acoustic (not electronic) reverberation that gives a sense of space and scale. For me, amps that employ feedback, tube, and especially ss, have tiny windows that fit between their high power distortion and the low level where feedback noise begins to obscure and distort low level sound. Most of what I described above occurs, in small ensemble acoustic music I listen to, at well under a Watt. Usually at under 0.1 Watt. I've measured actual power output off the plates of of my 2A3s, for example. It was only when I removed the feedback from my pp amp that the detail I mentioned began to come through in what I consider a realistic way. Most higher power amps that I can afford use feedback. I try them now and then and find what I'm looking for simply isn't there. The tiny window that includes high power is there for those who want to hear through that window, but it is the wrong tiny window for me. I do continue to search for an amp with a slightly larger window. The part I most want to open is the high output impedance penalty I pay for no feedback. But I'm not particularly interested in sacrificing any of the low end I've worked so hard to get right. Right now I'm studying 3 class-A ss alternatives, but they all employ series caps in very low signal stages, and I've been there before. I think it all comes down to which tiny window you want to listen through. Leo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dodger Posted April 30, 2005 Share Posted April 30, 2005 In all, The question is answered: What the owner finds to be pleasing, realistic, having presence and soundstage. Hearing sensitivity varies, what is closer to whisper to one person can be quite loud to another. Db meters cannot take that into account. Age and related hearing loss are other factors. I do not own SET, as everyone knows, I'm McIntosh. But I do defend the right to own whatever makes a person happy. No matter the Topology. Without being criticized, or being told they are wrong or that their Amplifiers consume too much power - Class A - that their Amplifiers are over or under powered. We may have strong opinions, that IS all they are. This is an open Forum. Not let's change a person's mind - except to change to acceptance. Agree to disagree. There are Mini-Coopers, Corvettes, SUVs, Continentals and Mazdas all on the same roadways. Mansions, small houses, Average. 2 Channel, 2 plus center, HT. It truly amazes me that this heated debate just continues. I'm not saying there should be complete agreement. But it seems much when a negative opinion is stated and re-stated so many times. The question of what may be lacking was raised - in PP, there are better than McIntosh in my opinion. I prefer tube to SS, but that's me. I've heard some very good SS. A number of posts note that tube is better with Klipsch as most likely only the first couple of watts will be used. We own what we own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunnysal Posted April 30, 2005 Share Posted April 30, 2005 is there a "heated" debate? I think we have pretty much come down to civil interchange of our opinions about each type of amp...the way it should be...every amp sounds different, so I say buy a bunch of amps and play around...some days I want krell, some days I want my JFL...some days I want more vintage amps...tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piranha Posted April 30, 2005 Share Posted April 30, 2005 Sometimes being deaf has its benefits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted April 30, 2005 Share Posted April 30, 2005 I agree, I can't hear any of the stuff everyone here is talking about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted April 30, 2005 Share Posted April 30, 2005 Greg, You really didn't have to go through all that. You could of just answered my 2 questions but thanks for the effort. Now you answered one question but left the other unanswered. I will have to disagree with your findings in fact your opinion on what sounds real for the music you mentioned is darn right hard to swallow. I spent a wasted youth going to rock concerts and hanging/working in rock and roll clubs. In fact I visit a local Rock club that has a absolute stunning sound system even today. I find that SET can not even come close to delivering that type of music in a realistic fashion. ACDC Please ? Early Aerosmith doesn't sound good on your system? Bruce Sprinsteen latest recordings sound incredible on my system why do they sound bad on yours? Your talking to a man that owns every thing the Boss every recorded and happens to be one of my favorite Artist although I'm burned out on it. I think you need to revisit PP in a serious manor. I'm not talking a bone stock ST70 that cost $69 back in the day or even the Scott 299 that you love so much. These are nice sounding amps but far from top notch in the PP world. A $4k+ pair SET amplifiers compared to low dollar PP is hardly a fair way to make a comparison. Craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted April 30, 2005 Share Posted April 30, 2005 ---------------- On 4/30/2005 9:59:49 AM sunnysal wrote: is there a "heated" debate? I think we have pretty much come down to civil interchange of our opinions about each type of amp...the way it should be...every amp sounds different, so I say buy a bunch of amps and play around...some days I want krell, some days I want my JFL...some days I want more vintage amps...tony ---------------- I agree... What heated exchanges? this thread has been civil and there is no reason this topic should not be continued if it stays civil. You know earlier in this thread I read how the PP crowd were being portrayed as the evil doers of days gone past on this subject. That is bull it takes 2 to tango. It seems to me that the people that left after all those heated exchanges took the heated exchanges with them. It has been a very long time since we have had all out blow ups on this forum and these PP/SET discussions have existed. So what has changed? Craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fini Posted April 30, 2005 Share Posted April 30, 2005 ---------------- On 4/30/2005 10:24:42 AM NOSValves wrote: I think you need to revisit PP in a serious manor. ---------------- Here's a serious manor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg928gts Posted April 30, 2005 Share Posted April 30, 2005 16' x 22' room. I just put Stiff Upper Lip on by AC/DC and cranked a couple of tunes, followed by Lonesome Day by Bruce off The Rising cd. There's just no comparison. The engineering on the AC/DC cd is much better. My critique of AC/DC recordings is that they come off kind of muffled sounding, but I think that's intentional. Kind of like the boxy drum sound. But the kick drum and snare are much more pronounced than those on The Rising cd. The AC/DC vocals, guitars, and bass are very distinctive and clearly separated from each other. Listen to the kick drum on Lonesome Day. I could get that same sound from a cardboard box. It's just terrible. The synthesizers, guitars, and backup vocals almost sound the same on that recording, they all have a messy, noisy, shrill to them that's just aweful. I did say what "I" like when referring to recordings and engineering. I have my educated opinions about the engineering on a recording, but I don't have a problem with people liking recordings like Lonesome Day. If you like that kind of meshed-together swirly noisy sound, then go for it. When I told my wife that the last Aerosmith cd sounded noisy to me, she said "Well yeah, rock and roll is noisy". And she's right, but it's just not my thing. As far as reproducing the kind of systems that concert goers listen to in our own homes, it can be done, but listening at those levels is very bad for long-term hearing. One of the things I enjoy about SET amps is that I can really enjoy the sound of music without hurting my hearing. The quest for more and more and more that consumes the average audiophile is best done in a quality-sense, not a volume-sense if we'd like to keep our hearing intact. Greg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted April 30, 2005 Share Posted April 30, 2005 ---------------- On 4/30/2005 11:05:53 AM fini wrote: ---------------- On 4/30/2005 10:24:42 AM NOSValves wrote: I think you need to revisit PP in a serious manor. ---------------- Here's a serious manor. ---------------- Final warning Fini leave me completely alone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted April 30, 2005 Share Posted April 30, 2005 Greg, Alright I'm going to go down and listen to both recordings myself and see if I get the same impression on my system. I happened to have both on CD and LP. Craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted April 30, 2005 Share Posted April 30, 2005 DP ?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark1101 Posted April 30, 2005 Share Posted April 30, 2005 Craig, I disagree that spending time going to rock concerts and hanging out in rock clubs makes a "wasted youth" (LOL). I lived for that stuff. That was great times, man. I still do it....except now pretty much just in my livingroom and basement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted April 30, 2005 Share Posted April 30, 2005 Mark, You need to revisit a good live club!! Then you will really appreciate your system when you come home and find it sounds oh so close to real. Craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dodger Posted April 30, 2005 Share Posted April 30, 2005 Perhaps heated was not the correct choice. As you Tony, Some days Tube, Some days SS (choices) - if I owned a SET that may be in the rotation. But I don't see PP or SET as the evil doers. Only some low tolerance. This has cooled. It was warmer. I just try to see a balance earlier than when things are spent. I see that is considered more of an intrusion than advocating tolerance. For some reason a number of times that is called into question. I will try to keep it in check. My apologies for miswording. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg928gts Posted April 30, 2005 Share Posted April 30, 2005 The Cuervo gold The fine Columbian Makes tonight a wonderful thing Now that's a well-engineered recording. Greg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fini Posted April 30, 2005 Share Posted April 30, 2005 Craig, You lost your sense of humor? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted April 30, 2005 Share Posted April 30, 2005 ---------------- On 4/30/2005 11:06:04 AM greg928s4 wrote: 16' x 22' room. I just put Stiff Upper Lip on by AC/DC and cranked a couple of tunes, followed by Lonesome Day by Bruce off The Rising cd. There's just no comparison. The engineering on the AC/DC cd is much better. My critique of AC/DC recordings is that they come off kind of muffled sounding, but I think that's intentional. Kind of like the boxy drum sound. But the kick drum and snare are much more pronounced than those on The Rising cd. The AC/DC vocals, guitars, and bass are very distinctive and clearly separated from each other. Listen to the kick drum on Lonesome Day. I could get that same sound from a cardboard box. It's just terrible. The synthesizers, guitars, and backup vocals almost sound the same on that recording, they all have a messy, noisy, shrill to them that's just aweful. I did say what "I" like when referring to recordings and engineering. I have my educated opinions about the engineering on a recording, but I don't have a problem with people liking recordings like Lonesome Day. If you like that kind of meshed-together swirly noisy sound, then go for it. When I told my wife that the last Aerosmith cd sounded noisy to me, she said "Well yeah, rock and roll is noisy". And she's right, but it's just not my thing. As far as reproducing the kind of systems that concert goers listen to in our own homes, it can be done, but listening at those levels is very bad for long-term hearing. One of the things I enjoy about SET amps is that I can really enjoy the sound of music without hurting my hearing. The quest for more and more and more that consumes the average audiophile is best done in a quality-sense, not a volume-sense if we'd like to keep our hearing intact. Greg ---------------- Greg, I hate to bring this up but I can instantly see where your problem is here. These 2 particular songs are so different it is not even funny. With AC/DC your listening to a 4 piece band lead guitar, Rhythm Guitar, Bass guitar and drums. Springsteen you have at least a 9 piece band all playing with numerous back ground singers. I have no problem getting either song to play absolutely wonderfully on my system both songs have absolute clarity. The Springsteen music is not hard rock and is not meant to sound like AC/DC its not recorded poorly and comes through as it should. Springsteen's music is 10 fold more complex then AC/DC and is much more taxing on a system. This is the classic limitation of SET shining through IMHO. Craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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