Quality And Price ?

[NOSValves]

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On 5/12/2005 10:22:16 AM Royster wrote:

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On 5/12/2005 9:34:17 AM NOSValves wrote:

Roy,

What Canary stuff do you have?

Craig

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Craig,

I have the CA-801L pre amp and 801P power supply combo. It is a 2 chassis dual mono pre amd power supply. 2 volume controls, 2 selectors ect. great pre, I love it but am thining it's time to try something else (will most likely kick myself).

A CA-301 amp (22 watts of 300B power per channel)

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Well when this is all said and done this should be interesting please let us know what your think.

Craig

[imperfectcircle25]

I think that to a certain extent you will get much better quality from a $5000 amp compared to a $500 one. But I dont really think that the parts are that much more expensive in the $5000 amp to justify the cost. I could be wrong though. It has alot to do with the details and if the product is hand made and where its made. Obviously a hand made American amp will cost more than a mass produced Chinese amp for lots of reasons, cost of labor is a big one, quality of part is another...ect But I still have not figured what a $8000 amp has thats makes it so much more than a $4000 amp. You get to apoint where if you spend more money you only get a very little change in performance. i have found the magic number to be somewhere in the 3-$5000 range for amplifiers, once you get over around $5000 you really get very small increases in sound quality. Its the law of diminishing returns. For example the $2000 amp will probably give you 90% of the sound quality of the $5000 amp and the $5000 amp will give you 99% of the 10,000 amp and so on....ect

[imperfectcircle25]

Yes but will the dogdge keep up with the vette when you have to turn?? I think not;)

[imperfectcircle25]

I think that you can put together an extremely good system for under 10k that will give you 95% of what you get from the mega buck systems.

Klipsch RF-7 $2500

Cary Sli-80 sig $3200

Cary 303/200 $3000

cables, power condioner, room treatments $1300

Just an example but you would be hard pressed to find a system that would do much better than this even for double or triple the price

[dodger]

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On 5/12/2005 9:35:05 AM Daddy Dee wrote:

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On 5/12/2005 8:29:59 AM dodger wrote:

I would love to hear how they truly justify the prices.

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Win, this is an interesting question that I've wondered about myself.

Perhaps the answer is (to the seller) that if people buy it, it's justified. To me, it's simply not a serious consideration. To me it's a "go figure" question that some folks take such things seriously. Excessive steel on amps is the same as cable piers and battery powered interconnects. I actually think better of high dollar Rolex watches, they look so cool, than this kind of audio gear. However, my Wal-Mart quartz Casio nerd watch at least matches the accuracy of the finest Rolex. It works for me. (BTW, anyone who wants to give me a Rolex for Christmas is welcome to do so, and it's my preference over an amp of the same price). Look what I can save you on shipping!

Hopefully I'm not being self righteous about it, but even if I had, say $6K to spend on a preamp, I think I'd still buy my Peach all over again. What a heck of a sweet spot value is this? True enough!

To me, aside from music that sounds so good it's bliss, which is a joy... part of my enjoyment comes from NOT spending a mega bucks to get that sound. In fact, there have been lots of smiles on this forum every time (and it is a common occurance) someone posts on having observed the indignation of a buddy at hearing the forum member's "budget" system that beat the socks off the buddy's megabucks system.

Sometimes I feel like the hayseed, redneck, shade tree mechanic whose old Dodge 440 Magnum just beat (or matched) a Corvette off the line. Yep, I was chewing on a broom straw when that city feller asked me if I was man enough to race my POS Dodge.

I just laugh all the way to the sweet spot in my listening room.

Maybe a new tagline is in order... Klipsch Nerds Unite!

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A Mopar Man - A Klipsch Man - and a good watch man. In 1984, my Nieces bought me a Timex. As needed I always kept it set for the 24 hours.

Since then, I have only had to buy three batteries, three Spiedel Twist-o-Flex watch Bands. Cracked the crystal about a year ago, clear nail polish seals it. Extremely accurate.

And I ran my Challenger against a 'Vette. 'Vette only started pulling away at 110.

Like my Father would say, well you were young and stupid...Now you're only stupid.

[seti]

Just looking at some gear you can tell if the build quality is justified or not. If you look at some of those turntables that come with their own tables or josh stipich electronluv amps or the new canary audio 80wpc mono 300b amps http://www.canaryaudio.com/Ref-One.htm or the Cary Audio 1610-SE you expect a high price tag but I was thinking of those items in the hifi world that look relatively simply yet still command high prices. I see some products out there and they remind me of the $5k speaker cables gimmie a break. Of course if money were no object I'd have it all but it is

[Daddy Dee]

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On 5/12/2005 1:40:47 PM dodger wrote:

Like my Father would say, well you were young and stupid...Now you're only stupid.

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[fgarib]

Hi there,

Just my two cents. This is a discussion that has gone on in my mind many many times. And I've found that, in order to make any sense of it, you have to make one very basic assumption: In today's highly competitive world economy, with it's highly educated consumer base, it is very hard to survive for any decent period of time if you can not justify the price of your products, because your competition will.

You guys are absolutely right when you say that the parts that go into a $1,000 amp and one that costs $5,000 are not THAT different. However, when put together as a whole, they have to fulfill the value that the customer expects. Unfortunately for those of us seeking good deals, the definition of the value held in the mind of the average, ill-informed customer does not mean the same thing it does to you and I. We may define a speakers value by the it's sensitivity, it's cabinetry, the type of drivers used, the caps in the crossover, etc. However, it's not secret that the majority of the speaker buying populace define the value by the name of the company on the grill, or how quickly the vibration knocks the frames off of the walls.

And frankly, (as much as I HATE to say this), these companies have worked REALLY hard to convince the consumer that their product, just based on the insignia on the chasis, is far superior to the competition that sells their products for a lesser price.

Case in point: in researching multi-channel sound and the Lexicon, I went over to a friend's place who has the Meridien 568 processor. Now, granted that is a wonderful product, provided you know how to set it up and get the most out of it. But he just did not... After hearing his setup, I left with the feeling that this gentleman could have done just as well owning a very medium level Marantz or Yamaha HT amp that might sell for around a grand and half rather than springing the $6k that he did for this piece. But then, he wouldn't have slept easy with the knowledge that he had a Meridien processor (albeit, HIGHLY under-utilized) sitting in his cabinet.

How many such people do all of you know? I'm sure numerous.

Just my thoughts... Great topic.

-F

[jazman]

Mark,

Thanks for bringing this subject into a very practical, real world light. The cost of higher quality, low volume hardware adds up quickly.

Guy,

You have also made it clear what creates part of the high cost of a Lamm product. He spends big bucks on the transformers alone.

For those unwilling to spend the dollars, usually because you don't have them to spend , or do not wish to allocate them to spend, it's easy to rationlize or theorize that the product is a rip off. It's simple, just don't buy it. In so many instances, your satisfaction with the performance of any piece of hardware, be it audio or automobile, is directly related to the limitiations you are willing to accept. You decide at what point you have met your performance goal and you declare, "good enough for me" The "good enough for me" is generally related to an individuals financial health. Because you can't afford it, or do not wish to spend the money on it, does not make it a rip off. It also generally means "I don't have the price of admission to find out if it's better."

I'm so amazed with the simplistic, and general dismissal, of hardware that may be beyond financial reach of many of us here without a full understanding of whats involved in the price. Just because you can't afford something, does not automaticlly mean it's a rip off. My philosophy is to generally buy the best I can "afford". It does not mean that any hardware that's more expensive is a rip off, but I guess if it makes you sleep better at night, continue thinking that way.

Klipsch out.

[fini]

So, in essence, you're saying it would be smarter to buy your wife some audio gear for your anniversary, than diamonds, right?

[Painful Reality]

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On 5/12/2005 9:48:37 AM Guy Landau wrote:

Vladimir Lamm still lives in a very small townhouse in Brooklyn and work in his basement. I know for a fact the his supplier charges him $4k for a pair of output transformers and he uses a dealer network so he could probably sell his amps direct and cut the retail costs down. But then he'd need to invest in marketing and that's something that his 3 people company couldn't spend time on.

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In my opinion, Vladimir Lamm is one of the best tube designer out there along with Michel Vanden Broech (from Tenor Audio).

I never heard any other tube amps that came even close to what the Lamm ML.2 and the Tenor Audio OTL can do.

Yes these are "insanely priced" but if one can afford these, good for him.

[3dzapper]

I salivate over the Lamm amps. Not from their flashy looks that's for sure. They are IMO simply the best. Dr Lamm's brilliant mind is worth a good 6 figure salary in whichever endeavor he chooses. His brilliance and no compromise phylosophy is priced into each of his products.

Alas as Jazman said, Lamm amps are beyond my means. As is a Ferrari.

Anyone care to take up a collection for me?

Rick

[seti]

That certainly helps explain alot. I can't remember the tube or the amp brand name but there was a funky looking tube amp in some hifi mag that was 125,000 now I am curious about the parts price list. Since I don't have gobs of money I do look for good value like used items on AG, Wright gear, or even some of the gear made and sold by members of this forum. I wish I new enough about the parts and the business as it would be interesting to examine some of these compamies more closely.

[Daddy Dee]

Mark,

Thanks for your take here. Very well said.

[seti]

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On 5/13/2005 2:57:38 PM fini wrote:

So, in essence, you're saying it would be smarter to buy your wife some audio gear for your anniversary, than diamonds, right?

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Yes I think that is what he is saying but let me know how that goes for you

[seti]

Well these work as jewelry of sorts gotta hand it to Bottlehead for their marketing skills.

[archangele]

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On 5/12/2005 7:27:30 AM seti wrote:

I know there are alot of people here that build there own amps and recondition amps so I have a question just out of curiosity.

Hi,

I design and build new tube amps as well as refurbish vintage amps and modern production amps. The difference between amps can be quite large with respect to price. In general, it has to do with the quality of parts. I have seen some amps that probably cost less to build (with respect to parts cost) then the output transformer on other amps of the same power. But, there are also the companies who sell amps at inflated prices which really do not have the quality parts to command such high prices. Some of the difference is blue smoke and mirrors while some is real and can be measured. To give you an idea of price differences I rebuild amps to different levels depending on what people want.

Take a Scott 299 as an example. A standard rebuild including the B+ power supply, bias power supply and all coupling capacitors, small electrolytic capacitors, plate feed resistors as well as several others may cost about $245.00.

This is using clamp type replacement electrolytic capacitors, standard IE or Xicon capacitors, and generic resistors. Now, if you upgrade to original style FP type power supply cans, Auricap or Musicap coupling capacitors, and Vishay resistors, you can easily add another $100 in parts alone. This is just a rebuild. Now imagine if you opted for replacing the transformers with Tango or some other high cost transformer. It would not be long before you had the $2,000 Scott 299! But the thing would sound much better then a restoration with generic parts as opposed to the high end components. Would the difference be all that great? Not really, but if you are on the quest for sonic nirvana and you have "Golden Ears" then the $2,000 Scott would most certainly be worth the price. As I said, I have rebuilt many vintage amplifiers and built many new ones. I still do this for anyone who wants and needs my services. I can tell you that using the higher quality and price parts does make a difference. But the difference is subtle. It is more noticable through efficient speakers like Klipsch, though. It is my bet that most all the people on this Kilpsch forum would appreciate the higher quality parts since Klipsch speakers do show up the subtle nuances better then most any speaker I have ever heard. But not everyone has these speakers and many would be just as well off with a less expensive rebuild, or amplifier for that matter.

So, although an $8,000 amp may not be right for most, there are many out there who can hear the difference in sound quality and who are more then willing to plop down all that cash for an amp of that price if it does use very high quality parts and lives up to it's price tag.

Bill B.

What makes an amp truly worth alot of money say 8$K or more just to pick a figure?

Essentially it's sound to the buyer. If it is the end all in sound and the person has $8,000, I'm betting the dealer gets the sale.

[edwinr]

Say I had the choice between two products, both sounding exactly the same, but one with better asthetics and build quality for more money. I would buy the more expensive product 9 times out of 10 if I had the spare money.

I suggest that my reward would be pride of ownership that I have bought something that looks as good as it sounds. I would never, however, buy something just for the brand name.

EDIT 1: BTW way seti, that advert is poorly composed. Parts of the cable have been obscured in the photograph.

EDIT 2: In the Bang For Your Buck (BFYB) formula, products like the VRD monoblocs, and the Blueberry preamp, in my opinion appear to offer everything. Great sound, great asthetics, and superior build quality. You don't have to spend big on brand names to achieve pride in ownership.