RF-7 vs KLF20 vs Cornwall??

[Olorin]

You know, there is some really good stuff in this thread. I'm coming out of HT land instead of two-channel, but I can certainly relate. When I replaced my front Heresys with Fortes, my initial reaction was that I was giving up something, and I wasn't sure I was happy with it. Over time I became acclimated to the sound, so when I went back to Heresys, suddenly those Heresys that I thought were just "it" seemed kind of thin. I got used to it again, then replaced the Heresys with Chorus IIs. Now I am certain that the Heresys aren't "it" for me, though I would have sworn up and down (and probably did) that they were.

I guess I'm roundaboutly saying that you have to listen to these things to really know, and IMO you need to spend some time with them. Your ears and your head will take some time to get used to the difference. My first impression is almost always that the change is for the worse -- I tend to notice what has gone away more than I notice what has arrived. Maybe other people hear differently, but to me it points out the importance of really getting to know them before you make judgments.

Now the nice thing about the Cornwalls and others like them is that if you are patient and get a pair within driving distance, you can probably get what amounts to a free trial. If you do it right you can use them for a good amount of time -- like months -- and sell them for what you paid for them. That is harder to do with the new stuff.

[heresy2guy]

Olorin brought up an excellent point. If you can find a pair of Cornwalls (or any other older Klipsch speakers you might like to audition) within driving distance being sold for typical prices, you can have one heck of an extended trial period. If you don't like them down the road, you can always sell them for what you paid for them. This can be very hard to do with "new" speakers bought off the showroom floor, as they say.

[imperfectcircle25]

I know I have to hear the speaker first, but that will be a bit hard since they dont makle Cornwalls anymore and I dont know anyone nearbye that has some. this is really why I was asking. If I could go out and listen to them myself I wouldnt have to ask. I know I like the Reference ound, but I have heard good things about the Cornwalls as well, so I figure I may be able to save a bit of money. Thanks for the people that acttually give some good information not like the few that just seem to like to argue.

[tillmbil]

Hello,

I used t0 have Forte with SS gear and thought that I had it all. The only complaint I had was that they were fatiguing after a short period at high volumes. I cured it somewhat with higher wattage amps. I currently have RF-5's in my HT system (RF-7's were to large) WAF.

Then I found this Forum, and 10's of thousands of dollars later I have a very different perception of what is a good sound. With Heritage vs. Reference I really think your music preference will play a large part. Other than KLF's (which I have not heard) certain Heritage speakers are better mated with certain genres of music. I have Cornwalls which I love for Rock-nRoll, and with new Dean crossovers and tube amps they are great with Jazz music.

I know Dean would say that the Rf-7's can do it all, but he no longer has any. I think if I was leaning towards largely Rock-n-Roll I would buy RF-7's. If I wanted both Rock and Jazz I would buy Cornwalls. If I was a Jazz fanatic or classical music fan I would buy Klipschhorns (which I also own).

But first and foremost...if I wanted to save money and do it only once, I would audition them first.

[imperfectcircle25]

I am mostly a Rock and Alternative guy so Im guessing the RF-7's are the way to go. Have any of you guys heard of a company called Sptech?? They make some very interesting monitor speakers using a short waveguide type horn and 8in aluminum woofer. Look very intereting. Anyone heard them??

http://www.tweekgeek.com/product.asp?pf_id=TimePiece

[whell]

I like the comments that some have made about auditioning. Wherever possible, see if you can work with a dealer that will allow you to audition the speaker in your home with your equipment, not in your dealer's showroom with their equipment. These type of dealers are out there.

I ended up with RF-7's and RF-3's - for the two systems that I use often. I was able to match the speaker with my equipment, and with only a few tweaks (pleacement, toe-in, etc.), get very pleasing results.

[pierceb]

Well if your a rock and alternative type of guy, and accustomed to the reference sound, I doubt that cornwalls will fully satisfy. I know I didn't like my cornwalls at all when I first brought them home after listening to the RF-7's for about two years. It took me a while to warm up to them.

If you like to listen at high volumes, then I would completely look away from cornwalls, I think they start to break up a bit at higher SPLs. At lower volumes though, I prefer listening to my cornwalls over my RF-7's and K-horns! Sometimes I sit in disbelief at how good my cornwalls sound. I haven't experienced this with my other speakers.

-PB

[Audio Flynn]

I have heard Senior' WHELL's RF-7 during a brief stay in my home.

SACD of James Taylor "JT" into BLueberry into VRDs; it was one of the most meorable demos I have attended in the past 5 years; and heck I was at home for it!

I agree with Corns breaking up sometimes at high volumes.

Only speaker from Klipsch to have structural problems I heard of was a KLF-20.

RF-7 is a ltttle different as a 2 way; but Trey says PWK ony used a mid because he could not find the tweeter tch at the time.

Try Chorrus IIs as well HEHE

[mace]

I bought a new pair of KLF-30's right as production was ceased and the RF's came out. I never fully got into them since they were too forward and harsh, especially at high SPL (>90 dB). I ended up getting a used pair of 1977 cornwalls. I had both sets for a couple of months. I ended up keeping the cornwalls. They were not as bright and sounded more musical, natural to me. I was using SS amplication at the time (an NAD 3240, nothing too great). The Corns also seemed to have slight warm sound which I attribute to a roll-off at very high frequencies and a slight boost at 200 Hz or so (at least according to my measurements).

Enter tube amplication (after I sold the KLF-30's). I got a Scott 299 and it is so smooth and creamy yet alive and real sounding. I've had the Cornwall and Scott set-up for a number of years and have not really been motivated to change (i.e. I'm actually satisfied!).

Regret: I wish I could give the KLF-30's a good listen with tube amplication. The grainy harshness I experienced was probably mostly due to my amplication. I wonder if I'd like the KLF's better than the Cornwalls now?

Comment: The cornwalls do tend to break up with metal/rock (Dream Theater, Green Day, Offspring, Metallica etc.) above 95 dB or so. By "break up" I really can't explain it. The instruments (bass, drums, guitar, vocals) seem to mush together somehow. BUT, when I leave the room or go outside with the window open, it sounds like the band is in the room! I'm not sure if it the room size or acoustics or my ears not liking the high SPL. To other folks who say the Cornwalls aren't good with rock/metal at high SPL I would ask "Have you ever stepped out of the room? How do they sound then?". With jazz and 3 piece stuff like Stevie Ray Vaughn the Cornwalls are just incredible. I just melt into the sound.

Maybe someday I'll give the RF's or KLF's a try with tubes.

Another point is room acoustics. The acoustics of the room is so very, very important.

Later,

Mace

[wheelman]

Wow the cornwalls won't play loud? Do the heresy's play louder? I mean I am listening to heresy II's about 8 feet from them, and they will cinge the hairs off your arms. In a good way before there is any distortion. I like it loud too. Man you guys must listen to music super loud!

[whell]

Audio Flynn said:

"I have heard Senior' WHELL's RF-7 during a brief stay in my home.

SACD of James Taylor "JT" into BLueberry into VRDs; it was one of the most meorable demos I have attended in the past 5 years; and heck I was at home for it!"

Although I imagine that the Bluberry and the VRD's had ALOT to do with how good they sounded. One of these days, after I win the lotto, I'm going to buy a pair of Craig's amps!

[tillmbil]

If you have older Cornwalls with the original crossovers, they definitely start to break up around the 95db range. Replace the crossovers and the speakers can carry off over 100dbs without breaking up. I would say that the highs do kind of become a bit more forward though. Of course my room set up is horrible.

[Piranha]

So Bill, Cornwalls or Khorns with Blueberry and VRD's?

[heresy2guy]

Breaking up at around 95 db?

That means that the speaker's only good for under ONE watt of input power, before there's distortion. So, basically, it's sonically going to hell in a handbasket with only one watt of power or less.

Doesn't make much sense to me, technically, unless that one watt's as dirty as a landfill.

Maybe there's something else going on here. like bad room harmonics.

I'll tell you one thing I've personally noticed though. If you play your speakers loud enough (and you're close enough to them), then the sound pressure levels become so high that your ear has trouble distinguishing anything. No, it's not distortion, it's just extreme SPLs. What happens is, in my opinion, that it gets so loud it simply becomes "noise" to your ears. Everything simply seems to mush together and what you hear might as well be akin to a jet engine on takeoff.

I don't know at what SPL this happens, but it'll probably depend somewhat on the individual, i.e. people with less sensitive ears can withstand higher SPLs. I've noticed this occurance personally on KG4s, Heresy, Heresy II, Forte, Cornwall, and La Scala speakers, all with varying amplifiers/receivers and in different rooms.

I've stood right in front of my La Scalas connected to my HK430 with the volume control at a 1 o'clock to 1:30 setting and the sound is so loud my ears can't separate the information and it winds up instead, to me, as "noise." Now, here's the kicker. If I leave the room and go down the hall in into the kitchen, it's no longer "noise" and I can again "hear" the music.

This seems analogous to what another poster said, about being able to go outside and the music becoming clear again.

What this tells me, is that it's not distortion from the amp or the speaker that's causing this perceiverd "noise" or "breakup" but extreme SPLs. This is verified by moving far enough away from the speakers so as to drop the SPLs that your ears must endure. Presto! The "noise" goes away and the "music" returns.

To me, this simply illustrates that a personal threshold in SPL has been met and broken and the result is "noise." Increasing your distance from the speaker effectively lowers the SPL that reaches your ears and the "music" returns.

Just my own little observation.

So, to get back to the reported breakup at 95db with the Cornwalls, if there's no problem with the amplifier or source material, and the room gives you good "listenability," then maybe it's simply something with high SPLs. Leave the system alone and put about 50-60 feet (or more) between you and your system and see what happens. If the "music" returns, then the equipment and room is okay and it's your own ears that are simply calling it quits.

[mace]

----------------

On 5/15/2005 3:04:39 PM heresy2guy wrote:

Breaking up at around 95 db?

That means that the speaker's only good for under ONE watt of input power, before there's distortion. So, basically, it's sonically going to hell in a handbasket with only one watt of power or less.

No. 95 dB at listening position, about 4-5 m from the speakers. So more than 1 W is going into the speakers.

Maybe there's something else going on here. like bad room harmonics.

Very well could be. See my last point in my previous post.

What this tells me, is that it's not distortion from the amp or the speaker that's causing this perceiverd "noise" or "breakup" but extreme SPLs. This is verified by moving far enough away from the speakers so as to drop the SPLs that your ears must endure. Presto! The "noise" goes away and the "music" returns.

To me, this simply illustrates that a personal threshold in SPL has been met and broken and the result is "noise." Increasing your distance from the speaker effectively lowers the SPL that reaches your ears and the "music" returns.

Agreed. Very likely a possibility.

One thing I guess I'm comparing it to is folks here have claimed that other speakers (Klipschorns, RF-7's) do not "break-up" at high SPL's. I've heard Klipschorn's and although I not have my SPL meter I do know they were playing very loud (>95 dB) with some material I'm very familiar with. They sounded phenomenal. Granted the room was different and I do believe that the room is a main factor.

So, maybe it is unfair to say that the Corns "break-up" or "mush toghether" the sound at high SPL's.

At any rate, I love listening to my Corns with all kinds of different music.

Regards,

Mace

[dragonfyr]

The optimal situation would of course be to take your time and to try and listen to each option.

Of course, on the other hand, you could simply avoid the entire issue and just get or make a pair of LaScalas or Jubilees, as you will end up wanting them before this process is over anyway!

[Lurch]

IIRC, the KLF-20 has a punishing impedance dip below 100hz (per Stereo Review, Apr 97). So, amp choice is probably somewhat important.

I'm pretty sure the Cornwall doesn't have any significant dips, but the RF could.

Also, I would look at the room very closely. Both the KLF and RF are rear-ported should be a couple of feet into the room. The Cornwall is designed to be against the wall. OTOH, the KLF and RF have "narrow" baffles compared to the Cornwall.

My $.02....

Jeff

[msst]

heresy2guy wrote:

++++"I bet P. Klipsch wouldnt have ever made a speaker like the RF-7 with a cone speaker operating up to 2000hz especially not as his flagshipp speaker."++++

That's something you will never know but at the same time, he could have, but it doesn't

really matter, that doesn't mean it isn't a good thing!! The RF-7 is an excellent

speaker and crossover at 2200Hz works, and it works well. It's not something to complain

about when the outcome is as excellent as the RF-7's are.

++++I doubt PWK had much input at all, if any, on the Reference series and I wonder who was really making the decision to push the company in the "2-way" speaker direction. ++++

Again, doesn't matter, it works and works well.

Listening to negative comments on the RF-7 here on the Klipsch forum had me not being

interested in them at all, but after Trevor gave me an invite to listen to his RF-7 and

2004 Klipschorn's, I came out very impressed with the RF-7. Klipsch did good, very good.

That was something I hadn't counted on. Now I have a pair of the Klipsch RF-7.

The RF-7 is still an exceptional product put out by Klipsch, even if you don't agree with

how it was made-up. The true user-reviews and sales for the RF-7 can pretty much speak

for itself. That would not happen if the RF-7 wasn't as fine a product as it is!!!!

++++Another thing that just amazes me, now that I think of it, is how people have posted here that you need 150 to 200 wpc amplifiers in order to handle the low impedence curve of the RF-7s and in order to properly bring out their midrange.++++

Wattage isn't really the most important issue, as is QUALITY of the amp. Any Klipsch speaker

needs a high quality amp to get the BEST out of it. Having a higher wattage amp, certainly

doesn't hurt if you want the extra headroom. How the RF-7 re-acts to the amp, greatly depends

on the amp itself but remember here, this is with ANY KLIPSCH speaker. Klipsch speakers have

the ability to reveal very well but if an amp isn't up to it, the Klipsch speaker can't force

it to! Many people are using a very high quality low-wattage SS and tube amps with great

success with the RF-7. I just happen to be using a SS 400wpc amp with my RF-7 because I had

my amp separtes before my RF-7. The results are very satisfying for my setup. Friends and

family have dropped mouths when I demo them and now they all want RF-7's!

++++ I happen to think they're wrong, but here's another point: Don't they realize that with the exception of the very limted built-to-order Heritage lineup, Klipsch no longer makes speakers that use horns for the midrange? ++++

Klipsch new Premiere Line will have the mid-range horn, a 3-way design. Supposed to be out

later this year.

It's a real shame some of you guys here don't give credit where credit is due with Klipsch

and they're great work coming out with the RF-7! Maybe it's hard for some of you guys for

change but I really actually think many here that comment negatively about the RF-7's have

never owned them or heard them with a quality setup or their negative comments would stop.

The negative comments that are so inaccurate or not helpful to anyone here, I almost passed

the RF-7's up because of some of you guys negative feedback on them. Now I've learned when

some guys here make such dramatic comments, I don't take their feedback serious at all.

For some reason, too many like to spread fud for some odd reason. Fud is never helpful to

those of us who want accurate information. I'm just very thankful I got the opportunity

to audition the RF-7 side-by-side with the Klipschorn from Trevor's kind invite or it

would have never happened and I wouldn't have the RF-7's today! I wouldn't call either

models the best but different, each with pros and cons. I would love to own both but I'm

very happy with the RF-7 and the type of pin-point imaging, accuracy, and resolution it gives that's very satisfying to me. I'm still awestruck by the RF-7 overall presentation,

very stunning, just as I've read others report.

[cjgeraci]

Very well said.

Carl.

[MrMcGoo]

msst,

Good points all. The Rf-7s are exceptional speakers that show excellence in design as well as build quality.

Bill