Parrot Posted May 30, 2005 Share Posted May 30, 2005 ---------------- On 5/30/2005 1:21:32 PM hjones4841 wrote: And don't forget to intall the "premium Wattgate Audio Grade 350 IEC and 330 US wall plug". Funny, that does not appear to be on their website, but here is another one that promises "Stronger Music and Blacker Silence" http://www.audioadvisor.com/store/productdetail.asp?sku=PSAPP ---------------- But Stereophile's Art Dudley is an audio expert. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrot Posted May 30, 2005 Share Posted May 30, 2005 ---------------- On 5/30/2005 3:06:04 AM maxg wrote: Well chortle if you like - but I am really starting to believe this cable is doing something - and we are still talking about the cheaper of the 2. Last night's listening experience was astounding with another varied mix of stuff. Still continuing the testing - with as open a mind as I can muster. ---------------- This should sound downright scary with its blacker blacks added to the blacker blacks you got already from your black CDRs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxg Posted May 30, 2005 Author Share Posted May 30, 2005 No worries on the black CD front Paul - this is a cable on the PHONO stage and strangely enough there is no phono stage on my CD player. Right, I have read all the naysayer comments on here and tend to agree with most of the statements. This leaves me with a quandry - I have observed what I believe to be a material difference in the presentation of the material - and this with the cheaper of the 2 exotic cables in place. Right now, I would happily part with a goodly proportion of the $100 this cable costs to incorporate it into my system (I will be able to get a fairly significant discount now I know the margins involved). I cant say it fairer than that - with no previous opinion on this subject - I am now prepared to put my money where my mouth is and spring for one - albeit the cheaper one - testing on the more expensive cousin starts tomorow. So - whilst I have observed a difference I suppose it now beholds me to explain it - or at least come up with something vaguely satisfying and pseudo scientific enough to justify my madness. I have a theory - curently - that does not involve magic - as follows: Here in Greece we run 230V AC mains. These are noisy - run a power cable next to a speaker cable (for example) for even a relatively short distance and you can hear it. At least you can hear it with my $3 computer cable. Do the same thing with the exotic cable and you cant. That simple. In other words - I think the shielding (which is visible through the transparent rubberised outer coating) works. The effect has nothing to so with improving the electrical input to the system - it merely isolates it better from the other cables carrying audio signal. Whilst I make every attempt to separate power and signal cables it appears to me that there is some interferance - although a lot less dramatic that when the cables are bunched together. When I replace my non-shielded cable with a shielded one - bingo - interferance eliminated (and therefore that blacker background thing). That's it - just a theory. Obviously the theory that I am imagining the change could hold water too - difficult to address that one. Maybe I have a secret urge to waste my money on cables that look sexy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrot Posted May 30, 2005 Share Posted May 30, 2005 ---------------- On 5/30/2005 2:06:57 PM maxg wrote: No worries on the black CD front Paul - this is a cable on the PHONO stage and strangely enough there is no phono stage on my CD player. ---------------- Thank goodness for that! But aren't most of your LPs black too? If you think the shielding is making a difference, I'm sure there are cheaper options. But if you can manage a 90% discount on the $100 retail, that wouldn't be bad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hjones4841 Posted May 30, 2005 Share Posted May 30, 2005 maxg: My sincere apologies for hijacking your thread. It is just that there is soooo much hype (dare I say lies?)in the audio marketplace that it is painful, for me at least, to see folks falling for it. Can you imagine drug companies getting away with the like? The ultimate one to be satisified is the purchaser, so if sexy cables make him happy, then go for it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxg Posted May 30, 2005 Author Share Posted May 30, 2005 ---------------- On 5/30/2005 2:21:21 PM hjones4841 wrote: maxg: My sincere apologies for hijacking your thread. It is just that there is soooo much hype (dare I say lies?)in the audio marketplace that it is painful, for me at least, to see folks falling for it. Can you imagine drug companies getting away with the like? The ultimate one to be satisified is the purchaser, so if sexy cables make him happy, then go for it. ---------------- " Can you imagine drug companies getting away with the like?" Tee hee - never had much dealing with the pharmaceutical industry then have we?..... Lets just say that they would not be the first ones to throw stones. Take a simple painkiller like Paracetamol - a prescribed painkiller in the UK on the Health Service - cost about 1 penny per 100 tablets. Now take the same thing - exactly - add approximately as much caffiene as you might find in a cup of Nescafe and sell under a brand name to the same health service for $10 per tablet. Helps if yo say it is specifically for back-pain or some such nonsense. Actually HJ I have no problem with you hijacking my thread - it helps to have both sides of the story - as it turned out in this case. Yes - as I said - I agree there is a lot of hockum in this field - and in many related fields within audio (wooden knobs that cost $500, cable suspenders, magic dots that permanently improve CD's in proximity using quantum physics and a thousand others). I do, however, find it a little hard to believe that all the companies that sell high end cable are selling crap and that they are a total rip off. Some of these companies are very respectable organisations - producing thousands of different cable products (Van Den Hull springs to mind). Are they really just sharks out there to catch the unwary? Are there so many unwary? Sufficient to fuel an entire industry? I think my shielding explanation a reasonable attempt at this stage to explain observations. This, according my fading memory, is the basis of good science. Make the observations first - then try to explain them. If the explanation fails to match the observations change the explanation - not the observations. Calling the observations into question is not invalid - merely pre-emptive. Without the step - "how could this be happening" being explored I would say de-bunking is on dangerous ground. This would not be the first time observation has defied scientific explanation for a while. Until the advent of high speed - super slow motion cameras - bees, according to science - could not fly. Bees, however, obstinately continued to travel from one flower to another without the use of a Taxi. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrot Posted May 30, 2005 Share Posted May 30, 2005 ---------------- On 5/30/2005 2:49:33 PM maxg wrote: I do, however, find it a little hard to believe that all the companies that sell high end cable are selling crap and that they are a total rip off. Some of these companies are very respectable organisations - producing thousands of different cable products (Van Den Hull springs to mind). Are they really just sharks out there to catch the unwary? Are there so many unwary? Sufficient to fuel an entire industry? . . . . . This would not be the first time observation has defied scientific explanation for a while. Until the advent of high speed - super slow motion cameras - bees, according to science - could not fly. Bees, however, obstinately continued to travel from one flower to another without the use of a Taxi. ---------------- To answer your questions in first excerpt above: 1) Yes. 2) Yes. 3) Yes. To debunk the scientists say bees can't fly myth: http://www.wolfson.ox.ac.uk/~ben/zetie1.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hjones4841 Posted May 30, 2005 Share Posted May 30, 2005 maxg: I agree that better shielding is the best explanation for what you are experiencing, but couldn't the same thing be said for better shielding on the audio interconnects? Are we trying to keep it from getting out or keep it from getting in? Anyway, happy experimenting and keep us posted when you try the "high priced spread." My reference to drug companies was in relation to claims of health benefits of their magic pills. Can you imagine if they were allowed to advertise like the esoteric cable companies are allowed to do? Believe me, I am well aware of the gross overcharging in the medical industry. I had back surgery 4 weeks ago and the billings to the insurance company are coming in. Funny how those things are handled here in the States: the hospital bills the insurance company for, say, $5000. The insurance company agrees to pay $800 and the hospital accepts it as 100% payment... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxg Posted May 30, 2005 Author Share Posted May 30, 2005 "I agree that better shielding is the best explanation for what you are experiencing, but couldn't the same thing be said for better shielding on the audio interconnects? Are we trying to keep it from getting out or keep it from getting in?" Now that is a good question. I dont think it much matters actually. We are trying to stop it moving from one cable to another. Whether we do that by shielding one, the other or both does not much matter. I tend to take the view that (AC) power is more the source of interference and less the recipient. I might be wrong - but it seems that any decent power supply would strip out unwanted noise from the line with its arrays of capacitors, resistors, diodes and what have you. As it happens my power chord is plugged into a power cleaner/filter anyway (separate from the additional unit I recently bought for the TT) so that it leads from the filter to the power supply on the phono stage. I cannot imagine too much "dirt" in that part of the circuit. In simple terms for a 3rd party power cable to make a difference - bearing in mind the many miles of none audiophile cable leading the power from the power station via step down transformers to my house - through my fuse box - along probably cheapo wires to my cheapo power socket - there has to be something going on once it emerges into this power cable. The only thing I can think of - still - although I am still considering possibilities - is interference. All the other power cables leading to this point are well enough buried away to have minimal effect on my system - background noise I suppose (aside - hmmm - possible cause of systems sounding better at night?). Now this whole theorem will collapse in on itself if the more expensive cable makes a further difference - for the better than is. Looking at the thing in all its purple glory (transparent purple if you can imagine that) there seems to be less shielding (at least obvious shielding) than in the cheaper item. I do not expect it to sound better. In fact I expect it to sound worse. Paul, You are a seriously cynical individual on cable companies - I cant quite buy it - I am generally not a conspiracy theorist. As for the bee thing - who knew? If it is purely the stuff of legend it has been going a long long time. I remember my sicence teacher telling my bees cant fly when i was about 11. But to keep you happy lets change it to: At some point: Everyone believed the world was flat. Science and religion believed the universe revolved around the Earth. Piltdown man fooled anthropology for 25 years. Canals on Mars Seas on the moon It is impossible for a man to travel greater than 30 miles per hour. ..... How many of these do you want? Science and engineering have been wrong many many times....here is a recent one: The Big Bang. Now they refer to the big crunch! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wheelman Posted May 30, 2005 Share Posted May 30, 2005 Max I hear these cables rule. http://www.nbscables.com/products/100plus.html I would never in my life beable to afford them. Product Length Price Interconnect Cable (RCA or Balanced) 4-FT Pair Add'l 4-FT Add'l 2-FT $10,000.00 $ 5,000.00 $ 2,500.00 Speaker Cable 04-FT Stereo Pair 06-FT Stereo Pair 08-FT Stereo Pair 10-FT Stereo Pair 12-FT Stereo Pair $10,000.00 $15,000.00 $20,000.00 $25,000.00 $30,000.00 Interconnect Cable (RCA or AES/EBU) 1-Meter Add'l 1.0 Meter Add'l 0.5 Meter $ 5,000.00 $ 2,500.00 $ 1,250.00 A/C Power Cable 4-FT or 6-FT 9-FT $ 5,000.00 $ 7,500.00 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmiles Posted May 31, 2005 Share Posted May 31, 2005 I hope I don't get fired posting during the work day but I just can't help it. MaxG great thread (one of my first postings on this forum and The HT Spot was on this very subject) and to HJ for his scientific insight. To me I have not dought that the high cables improve sound based on the materials and manufacturing processes used to produce them. BUT there has to be diminishing returns like in this crazy hobby we all enjoy. Does a $2500 power cord make an improvement over a $100 power cord? Absoulutely but is it a 25X (based on cost) factor of improvement? NO... This is like someone saying my Klipsch RF7's ($2200.00 pair) can hang with a pair of Wilson Watt Puppy's ($23000.00 pair). No way! I own the RF7 and have listened to the WP's many times. However from a "value" perspective the RF7's are a great choice. It is all relative to the total expense. A $2500 ac cord on a $25000 mono block amp is a "no brainer" for level of conusmer. Regards, Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxg Posted May 31, 2005 Author Share Posted May 31, 2005 Wheelman, Your post seems to fit in very nicely with what mmiles said after you. Note on the page you linked to: "Total System Value (U.S. Dollars) Above $100,000" If you are going to sink that kind of money into your system then eye-candy cables at $10,000 probably dont seem too unreasonable. I am not here to mount any form of defence for the high end cable industry - in as much as I dont think it actually needs it from me anyway, but also that I still cant tell you they make a difference or they dont. I can say a $100 cable seems to improve the playback on my system over the $3 computer power cable I was using. I have hazzarded a guess as to why - but it is only a guess. Should the $1000 cable - which will go into my system tonight - prove to be much better than the $100 cable then I will have to re-visit my own explanation. Till then - we will all just have to wait with baited breath. Damn - isnt it exciting - you could cut the air with a cucumber over here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cal Blacksmith Posted May 31, 2005 Share Posted May 31, 2005 Max; I'm sorry, I stayed out of this as long as I could. I would say that for the maximum sound improvement, take both cables back put on the $3 cable and spend the $100 on an LP sale. The return is real and can be proved Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timmikid Posted May 31, 2005 Share Posted May 31, 2005 For more cable offers: http://www.stevehoffman.tv/forums/showthread.php?t=47670 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LarryC Posted May 31, 2005 Share Posted May 31, 2005 Price isn't much of an indicator of power cord sound quality, IMHO. I tried a round of several some months ago, and for example turned off the highest-priced (Elrods) as being unmusical and having huge EMI radiation -- the kind of thing Max, and I, believe should be reduced. NBS power cords at a quarter of the price given above were more impressive and beat other similarly priced cords in my limited testing. These things are not only system-specific, they seem to be component-specific as well. I'm very skeptical that a $100,000 system necessarily benefits from any ol' (edit) 4-figure power cord. Larry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wheelman Posted May 31, 2005 Share Posted May 31, 2005 Hey it's kind of like a car. If you like it go for it. Some people upgrade their spark plug cables. I think some more expensive cables are well worth it, but then again I bet you their are alot of not so expensive companys that are being over looked and may be better. Just like you may experience Max with the power cords. Of course it wouldn't make much sense to put a 100 dollar power cord on a 200 dollar receiver. If it was detachable that is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrot Posted May 31, 2005 Share Posted May 31, 2005 ---------------- On 5/31/2005 8:57:43 AM mmiles wrote: It is all relative to the total expense. A $2500 ac cord on a $25000 mono block amp is a "no brainer" for level of conusmer. ---------------- I must have missed this rule of thumb, spend 10% of your amp's price on the power cord. It doesn't take anyone engaging in a conspiracy to recognize that there is beaucoup money to be made by selling audiophool wire, and that the audiophools will come begging to be separated from their funds. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nicholtl Posted May 31, 2005 Share Posted May 31, 2005 ---------------- On 5/31/2005 10:37:06 AM Cal Blacksmith wrote: Max; I'm sorry, I stayed out of this as long as I could. I would say that for the maximum sound improvement, take both cables back put on the $3 cable and spend the $100 on an LP sale. The return is real and can be proved ---------------- Remember the big ol' fancy powercable I brought to Andy's? We connected that to one channel of your VTR, and a stock cable to the other channel. I don't think any of us heard a difference. And yet I hear a marked improvement when switching between those cables and stock ones in my own system. I can only conclude that much has to do with the equipment and the synergy between components. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seti Posted May 31, 2005 Share Posted May 31, 2005 What good are power cables if you are going to just lay them on the floor. These are a must have for cables fossilized dinopoo cable risers or dinopoorisers or dinopiles lol http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=6535089573 I need to find larger specimens though........ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edwinr Posted May 31, 2005 Share Posted May 31, 2005 Just buy the esoteric cables. Such are the claims for them that we should question the need for amplifiers, turntables, loudspeakers etc... This stuff just gets in the way of the music. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.