Are high-end crossovers worth it?

[Deang]

O.K., that's good. I'm actually glad to see that. I would hate to think Trey and Steve were feeding me a line. I guess I like a "hot" squawker, which doesn't surprise me. In truth, it doesn't sound any hotter than my A's do, and that's the sound I used to dial in the networks. I still think the resistor and bandpass take things down just a bit.

[BEC]

Al,

There may be a bit of variation between the drivers anyway. I have a trace somewhere done on a K-401 horn with K-55V and K-55M that are almost exactly alike. Could be we need to test a couple of dozen and take an average.

Bob

[Al Klappenberger]

Bob,

I like that explanation! I'll just assume I had a hoter than average K55M.

Al K.

[Deang]

I just don't think it matters enough to get worked up over. I listened to A's and AA's with both K-55-V's (soldered) and K-55-M's, and though they sounded a bit different to me, I couldn't decide which sounded "better" to me. I sure never sensed that the K-55-M was louder, or dominating in some way.

[BEC]

Dean,

Check your email.

Bob

[gonzp]

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On 6/27/2005 1:29:35 PM J.4knee wrote:

OK I would like to offer my comment on the network swap on Friday night. When I came in I initially thought the La Scala's sounded like they had a blanket over them. My wife even commented that they sounded "dead". When Dean put his networks in the sound livened up significantly there was a lot more clarity and detail in the mids and high end that was seriously missing before. I wont say they sounded as good as my ALK’s but then the room was not exactly an ideal venue for critical listening tests, especially by a bunch of liquored up 40+ year old folks (referring chiefly to myself). Dean’s crossover change out made an immediate sound improvement. One thing is undeniably certain here; better parts make for better sound

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I also noticed an immediate improvement with the Dean networks installed. I may not have 20 something ears but the veil was definately lifted.

Happy listening: Patrick

[Q-Man]

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On 6/26/2005 1:21:58 PM DrWho wrote:

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On 6/26/2005 12:38:17 AM tpg wrote:

My sources and amplification are not the best, but I'd prefer to start inside and move out.

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I sincerely think you got it backwards...get the source and amplification right first and then start playing with the speaker. With audio you always want to start with the weakest link and I can guarantee the crossover isn't the weakest link by any means (unless of course the components are damaged or not working properly). If you've ever listened to the stock speaker on very high quality amplification and sources you'll know what I'm talking about.

IF there is any improvement with a new crossover, you're not going to hear the difference if your source and amps suck. You might think you hear the difference, but it's mostly a psychological game.

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I disagree here. I believe that you should first make the speaker be all that it can be, then move on. Once you have found the speaker that moves you, and you don't think that you can buy another speaker that will suit your taste more then the one you have, then tweak it.

I feel that some of you still need to find this speaker, before putting too much money in the ones that you have. Unless your like me and some others here, and just like to play around and have fun experimenting.

[theryugobuddy]

Getting the crossover upgrade is like getting a new pair of speakers--simple as that. Mine (KG5.2) were transformed. Now that my ears are used to them I can't really remember how they sounded before, but I know they now sound more true and more the way the music I'm playing should sound. The impact while playing alot of music after they were installed was dramatic. And fun.

Over the past few years I've upgraded with several SS amps, preamps, and recently a DtoA converter--all BEFORE upgrading my old speakers. Going from a crappy Yamaha receiver to separates made the biggest difference in sound, but the crossover upgrade made the next biggest improvement, if you had to grade sound quality improvements---

Of course this is all IMO--

[KlipsDude]

* I'm almost certain it is subjective likes most all sound is.

* I hear all this stuff here abouts Klipsch RF-7 having a hot top and the crossover upgrade will remove the hot harsh top. What the heck, I say to myself???? There is no hot tops, I gets no harsh, all I gets is so smooth creamy beautiful cookin sound. Maybe, just maybe, you need to run it with equip that will work as a team with the RF-7. I'm using a McIntosh amps, and it's way smooth with no HOT top, and it's extremely detailed. Maybe, but just maybe's, one would benefit to a much lesser degree when running with very good hi-end equips. When I listen's to Diana Krall, I can very easily hear her chair sounds as she moves playing the piano, and her her lips smakin when she gulps for air between her singings. Also hear some background studo talkin some times in songs. Her Albums sound AWESOME on a pair of RF-7's!

* I recently asked a few peoples that know a lot abouts crossover upgrades and was told some will swear by it and some will say it's not necessary, I was told if you don't needs to, then don't, but if you have a problem with old crossovers, than do it. So I don't know. I did once hear one guys Forte II that had crossover upgrade he did and I really had trouble hearing much and felt I liked my Forte II stock sound better but that is all I've ever heard wit any experience but we's were running different equip to, so it wonts be a fair compares.

* I hear great comments here abouts DeanG crossover, I curious hows it sounds, but I donts get no hot or veiled sound here, so I donts need no fixin.

[Deang]

You sure used up a lot of keystrokes convincing yourself. See the weighted frequency response plot in the Sound & Vison Review, and then come back and tell me the top isn't "hot". That aside, there is the improvement one gets by using higher quality parts. Anyone who tells you otherwise hasn't done it or experienced it, and anyone who has done it or experienced it certainly has no interest in putting them back the way they were.

[mike stehr]

Hes don'ts needs nos fixins, Deans.

[cjgeraci]

Agree, could not improve his RF-7s.

Klipsdude, please do not get Dean's mod.

Carl.

[KlipsDude]

Who knows then, maybe I like a hot top than. I like very much what I have now. Maybe the McIntosh is taming it down nicely already, it just sounds right on my ears.

Who knows one day I may try it, you just never know. I'm ok for now.

Dean, am not saying your crossover arent good, just tried a different setup with a friend and the RF-7 was different, didnt like so I see what some can be gettin, but my setup is over all pleasin that I am fine with the stock sound.

I'll take a look and read what you suggest. Thanks.

[KlipsDude]

Hmmm, I'm lookin Dean, but I cant find where that article or info is??

If I do your mods in the future, maybe I need to get it without that hot top fix so it will stay the same in that area, love the dynamics the high has with the music performance it gives.

[Deang]

You would probably have to order the back issue from Sound & Vision.

I don't really do "a hot top fix". The last thing I want to do is emasculate a horn. In the other thread, you were saying the top is not hot, I simply said it was. The only thing I do is bring down the horn's resonant peak just a bit -- about 1.5db. It's in the area where people's hearing is typically very sensitve. Considering the speaker is +/-5db throughout its response -- it's hardly anything to make a fuss about -- unless it sounds worse -- which it doesn't. The combination of the mod and the better quality parts push the speaker into the world class category. If it already wasn't a fanastic speaker, this wouldn't be possible. You will never, ever find a post by me where I sell the RF-7 short. Still, you need to accept that things can always be made a bit better.

I enjoy demoing my work in front of groups of people. The day I fail to impress is the day I quit soldering.

[KlipsDude]

Thanks Dean for explaining it to me. I know people here donts like me being skeptical about the xover mod, but being human, its a normal thing to be skeptical and Im a learnin from others here that it is an improvement. I sure would like to hear the difference, wish I was at your demo when you showed it. I still dont understand the high thing beings sensitive to the ears for some because I swear, Im just not hearing it here. I dont know if Im not getting it, or if Im not hearing it with my ears not being as sensitive to it than some others on this forum? Maybe's I need to have someone listen with me and point it out to me what to listen for? If I do your crossover upgrade, what should I expect in sound improvement in a % wise rating to give me an idea? 5% 10% 50% ?? With what every one is sending me to do it, Im wondering if I should or not now since they say it does improve the sound overall with a huge difference.

[Deang]

I don't have a problem with your skepticism, and I don't think anyone else really has a problem with it either. They're your speakers, and it's your money -- and you have a right to ask as many questions as you want. The burden is on me to deal with your objections. As for the percentage of improvement -- that's hard to do. If I pull a small splinter out of your foot, what is the percentage of improvement in your walk?

[popbumper]

Agreed - I like Dean's analogy. Really, crossover upgrades are not quantitative as much as qualitative - and that's a tough thing to put a number on. You simply have to HEAR the difference to witness the reality of a crossover upgrade.

Chris

[KlipsDude]

thanks, i sent you a PM Dean, hope it went threw to you?

[KlipsDude]

dang, these stock crossovers sure do sound awesome though!!