Are high-end crossovers worth it?

[tpg]

I got the crossover upgrade bug today (among many other upgrade bugs- it's summer... what can I say) and started looking through my "archives" at all my Klipsch crossover schematics (I don't have very many, though). Since I have the KLF-30's and RF-3's, I mainly focused on them. Based on my own personal opinions, I wanted all Jantzen 12-guage copper foil inductors, Solen caps for woofer section, Audiocaps for mid/tweeter, and Mills/Reidon non-inductive resistors. So, I totaled up my bill....

We do not even want to discuss prices. OH MY! (Ok, prices were in the $250-350 range, not including autoformers). I was wanting to build up a pair of crossovers for my own use and maybe build some for other users here with similar speakers so they could post results and opinions (plus it would give me something to do- building crossovers for people- and I desperately need something to do). I was also wanting to upgrade the internal wiring (I've noticed Klipsch likes using 16 and 18 guage wire, which I am not fond of). Buying a spool of decent wire would run much more as well.

So, this left me wondering... Is it really worth it? I'll have half what my speakers are worth just in crossover parts. If I were to sell them, I'd have $400 in parts. Who would want to pay that plus a building fee? I suppose I just got beat by another project... That is like a running total of 5+ projects that have beat me in the past week.

I am curious to know how others feel about these kind of prices.

[tigerwoodKhorns]

You need to analyze your return for the expenditure.

I have spent a significant amount of money on my K Horns (ALK's, False Corners, JBL Baby Cheek Tweeters) and am about to spend much more (ALK ESN's and new midrange horns). But these are K Horns and I do not intent on selling them (no matter how much my wife wants me to). I would never spend this kind of money on my Heresys (even though they are great speakers). It just does not make sense (and woudl not make any sense if I were thinking that I might sell the K Horns in the future).

Where do you want to wind up? You can sell the speakers that you have, add the $400 for crossover parts and maybe get a set of cornwalls.

Chris

[Al Klappenberger]

tpg,

Yes, the upgrades are worth some expenditure, but you can cut the price by being wise about the parts you choose. First off, forget the spiral inductors. They have no advantage in crossover networks and cost big bucks. Use #14 or larger solid wire for the woofers incuctors. Solen "litz" wire for the tweeter filters. There is also no advante to non-inductive resistors. The "cement" wire-wound resisters are just as good. Also, leave the wiring from the drivers to the network alone unless they are turning green! A foot or two of smaller wire makes no difference! The caps are worth however much money you want to throw at them! The Solen FastCaps are not the very best but they are a lot of bang for the buck! If you want save some money, use those.

AL K.

[STL]

Another option would be to replace all the caps with Dayton Poly caps then bypass each one of those with a 0.01uF AudioCap Theta cap. I read over on a Lansing forum where a guy had very good results doing that on his JBL horn's crossover. His results agree with a guy's high-end cap testing -- see http://home.zonnet.nl/geenius/Cap.html -- in that he recommends Thetas be used as a bypass caps. Although I have no practical experience (yet), I have to believe in the law of dimishing returns when it comes to upgrading caps.

[Daddy Dee]

TPG, the cost/benefit ratio for normal folks doesn't really compute to audiophiles or audio enthusiasts anyway. Most people wouldn't think your investment in the speakers already in your room are "worth it". If your crossovers are really old, they will need to have caps refreshed anyway. IMO, what high end crossovers do is "fine tuning". They won't change the character of the speaker. Like most high end gear, there is a law of diminishing returns. Squeezing the last little bit of improvement is expensive. Whether folks appreciate the difference in sound, relative to the cost is completly subjective. Whatever floats their boat.

One question, if the original crossovers are off spec, then you don't yet know what your speakers sound like at factory spec. For me, that has been an important question to answer before going with high dollar parts. Personally, I have come to derive a great deal of satisfaction in the sound of restored Klipsch speakers at factory spec.

If your speakers are newer, you are back to a simpler cost/benefit consideration.

[boom3]

The return on investmemt with a 'high end" crossover is not the "capacitor of the month", but the experience and talent of a skilled designer (like Al K) in a modified crossover topology. The chance to correct the compromises that the factory made in the design, and to permit inclusion of modern drivers. The notion of "bypassing" in the audio range is, as I've said in this and other forums, absurd. The high frequencies do not magically jump to the 'trendy' cap. In any event, a 0.01 uf cap will have a frequency point, at 8 Ohms, of about 1.8 MHz.

[DrWho]

Well I vote no, they're not worth it because the crossovers SHOULD already be engineered well. To start off, crossovers are only an issue within the frequency bands where you have multiple drivers playing the same information. So even on a 3 way design, we're talking a very low percentage of the sound that the crossover will be active in. That said, klipsch engineers their crossovers for an "every room" friendly polar response blah blah blah...if they were to build it for a very specific room (ie yours), then it's quite possible that an improvement could be made. But how much money are you going to spend on such a small piece of the puzzle? I think there are much better improvements in sound to be had in other areas of the system (ie room treatment).

Btw, I just wanted to mention that I find AL K's extreme slope crossovers to be an extremely interesting concept (haven't had the chance to hear a pair yet) so I'm not trying to belittle the idea or anything. I would actually love to see a pair tested at the klipsch facility and compare the polar and freq. responses against the stock klipsch stuff. Perhaps even do some real room testing as well.

[popbumper]

This is certainly a subjective topic - "worth it" depends on a number of factors that will influence the end user, including his/her experience and knowledge about audio, his/her appreciation of sound reproduction, and how the end user understands/defines the change that occurs when a high-end crossover is installed. A more exhaustive list of considerations follows.

For myself, in great part to the efforts of folks like Dean, Bob Crites and Al K, I carefully considered the possibilities and took to treading this slippery path. Having always wanted to "design" a crossover, I chose to create a PCB that would allow me to utilize better components while maintaining factory specs, and could be constructed with relative ease. Once I actually developed a board, and stuffed it with parts, I retrofitted my Academy and Forte's. The result was astonishing; I expected FAR less. The "worth" was immediately obvious and permanent.

But, what of this worth looking at feedback from others? Certainly, many will consider upgrades based on this. While the impact of the many adjectives describing sonic characteristics have far more "meat" to some than others (dynamics, clarity, quietness, hash, grain, solidity,etc.), they only help define what is sometimes hard to put into words. If you take the time to read the majority of reviews for networks that have been built by Dean, Al, or myself, you will note that there is often a very positive reaction as to the impact of the new network and/or upgrade. Each user has their OWN way of saying "what is good" about the change. These opinions are based entirely on their impetus, and are experiences unique to them. This neither makes them wrong or right, but it helps someone else considering an upgrade to make a better informed choice.

Again, what of this worth when looking at cost? TPG said it best, and paraphrasing him, "cost is HIGH". When I first considered the cost of $20 100uF caps, I shrank away, as most would. Being a electronics engineer was no help - I simply could not grasp the cost/benefit ratio until I HEARD the impact. Most often, once one appreciates the improvements network upgrades can make, the "worth" equation melts away. The improvement no longer relates to cost, which is superceded by the realization that there will NEVER be a time when the user will "go backwards" and hook up their stock networks. The change is REAL and has a value greater than cost.

Finally, what of the worth from an individualistic point? Like so many other things in life, one man's impressions are not always anothers. It is easier to consider doing an upgrade when others tout it as a positive move, but it does NOT mean that the second recipient will hear EXACTLY what the first does. It's a fact. So, are high end crossovers WORTH it? It depends on many factors:

1) Is there a casual interest in upgrading, or is it a real search for sonic improvement?

2) Does the end user understand and accept the high cost of better quality components?

3) Does the end user feel that the quality of the network (whether upgrade or rebuild) merits the cost?

4) Does the speaker cost BEFORE network upgrade/replacement warrant the additional cost?

5) Does the end user have technical knowledge in the audio realm?

6) Is there a sufficient element of trust in the reviews of other folks who have written about their own experinces with upgrade?

7) Is there a sufficient element of trust in the individual who is providing the network upgrades?

8) Is the price FAIR (WOW, talk about subjective)!

Only until the end user can answer these questions honestly, can THEIR true definition of WORTH emerge. It's really not a simple question to answer. Are high end crossovers for everybody? In reality, no - BUT, the choice in each case should be an informed decision that considers many personal and external factors.

Chris

[st. patrick]

Chris, excellent post! Thank you

[Speedball]

Cant say for sure about "high end crossovers" but I am about to let Dean do my RF7's after seeing it make a positive impact on my KG4.2's

[tpg]

I am still toying with the idea of upgrading, but perhaps using less "high end" parts than before in some circumstances. My main goal is to get every little bit of the best sound possible from the 30's. My sources and amplification are not the best, but I'd prefer to start inside and move out. I've been doing electronics work for a few years and am decent at it, so I am not afraid, necessarily, of doing an upgrade or scratch build myself. I just fear that the difference won't be as noticeable as I might hope for the amount of money it would take...

There is a lot of considering with an upgrade decision like this.

[DrWho]

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On 6/26/2005 12:38:17 AM tpg wrote:

My sources and amplification are not the best, but I'd prefer to start inside and move out.

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I sincerely think you got it backwards...get the source and amplification right first and then start playing with the speaker. With audio you always want to start with the weakest link and I can guarantee the crossover isn't the weakest link by any means (unless of course the components are damaged or not working properly). If you've ever listened to the stock speaker on very high quality amplification and sources you'll know what I'm talking about.

IF there is any improvement with a new crossover, you're not going to hear the difference if your source and amps suck. You might think you hear the difference, but it's mostly a psychological game.

[Deang]

Gratefully, we can ignore the opinions of those of have not one iota of experience in the matter.

[Al Klappenberger]

DrWho,

I have to jump in here! You have it totally reversed! The weakest link IS THE SPEAKERS! Get them right first, then fiddle with the electronics. The battle over tubes versus solid state and one turntable versus another is small popatoes compared to the difference in speakers. One trip to the local schlock-house hi-fi store with a loudspeaker listening room should convince you of that! Swap out the squawker horn in you heritage speake for something else and you will wonder why you ever spent money on amplifier swaping!

Al K.

[Deang]

Uh, exuse me Al, but I was going to use this thread to peddle my networks -- You'll have to find a different thread for your Trachorn!

Those who were paying attention at the mixer Friday night in Indy heard first hand the difference a handful of great parts and a bit more sophistication in the circuit can make in the sound of these speakers. There's nothing more fun for me than doing a network swap with a room full of skeptics.

[joshnich]

From personal experience I would whole-heartedly agree with Dean for the most part. The network that I purchased from him was by far the greatest bang for the buck upgrade. I cannot say it matched the ss to tube switch but it was pretty darn close!!! My advice would be to upgrade your networks before any other change. You dont know what youre missing!!

Josh

[popbumper]

Dean:

Use thisd thread to peddle YOUR networks? Not so fast - I was in this thread first ...

Chris

[BEC]

I hope I am not too late. Need to get in here too.

Bob

[Woodog]

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On 6/26/2005 9:53:10 PM DeanG wrote:

Those who were paying attention at the mixer Friday night in Indy heard first hand the difference a handful of great parts and a bit more sophistication in the circuit can make in the sound of these speakers. There's nothing more fun for me than doing a network swap with a room full of skeptics.

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Amen to that! The difference was remarkable, to say the VERY least about it.

Woo

[DrWho]

Well I know this will make me unpopular and I mean no offense by it or anything, but I didn't hear any difference at all when the fancy crossovers were dropped in (don't think I was the only one either)...though there was a great deal of time inbetween. Perhaps the difference is more noticeable in a straight up AB comparison?...I guess I'll just consider myself lucky to not have a need to spend that kind of money. But then again, I didn't really like most of the music being played either (just not my cup of tea). I don't think I'm deaf though because I was one of the few people sitting in the back of the room cuz it was way too loud (talk about "creeping fingers syndrome") and a few years ago my hearing was tested to be good up to 22kHz.

Btw, what was wrong with the crossovers in the speakers we were demo'ing all day long at the tour? Everything sounded clean to me (except the heritage room, but I think that's perhaps because they haven't fine tuned the acoustics and I was sitting in a wierd position not normal for listening). All the klipsch engineers that I got to question were talking about how the majority of distortion we hear in our speakers actually comes from the amplification. For example those synergys sounded real nice on those aragon amps (nothing close to what they would have sounded like on a crappy $500 reciever). To me, fixing the crossover (if it indeed was broken to begin with) will just improve the transition of the same distortion between the different drivers. Man, I wish I could remember exactly what Mark Blanchard (acoustic design engineer) said when I asked him about crossover upgrades, but I got the basic impression that it wasn't worth it...unless you were improving the polar response of the speaker, which I think a steeper slope would almost always do (but I'm not entirely sure about that either). He was talking about how you have your direct response and a room response and you gotta come to a careful balance between the two because the sound we hear in our rooms is a combination of both. In other words, the off-axis response is as important as the on-axis. And very rarely will you get a system where the polar response of the two drivers lines up perfectly in the crossover region. I definetly don't see how changing out same spec parts would be an improvement though (seems to much like a wire change to me). Nevertheless, I don't see any of you guys doing any real testing of your new designs (perhaps I missed them?) Do any of you fancy crossover builders have any charts or something comparing the before and after? What exactly is wrong with the stock design that needs fixing? Again, are there measurements that show flaws in the original design? If there are, then why didn't klipsch address it?

Anyways, I just think better improvements can be had in other areas of the system. Like how bout spending the same money on acoustical treatment? Get a few bass traps and build a few curved masonite panels or something. I can't believe the money people drop on electronics while listening inside a closet.

Btw, I know this topic can seem to get a bit personal at times cuz the people building these fancy crossovers are putting a lot of time and effort into it too. I just hope I don't rub off the wrong way. I've had the chance to hear 2 updated crossovers: the lascalas at the mixer and colter's KLF-C7 (both with long pauses inbetween). I'll leave it up to y'all to tell me how many I have to listen to and what situations are acceptable if you think it's not an informed enough opinion.