K Horns in bad corners. . .how bad?

[tidmack]

Hi all,

Put money aside for this one, I'm only concerned with sound quality: Will K horns in bad corners sound worse than a pair of LaScalas? My bad corner consists of a door that makes up part of the corner. I'm curious how many cycles I'm going to lose having one out of a perfect corner. I have a chance to buy a pair of new Horns quite reasonably, with the thought that I will someday have a home built to accomodate K horns. BUT, if I'm going to be completely unhappy with them for several years until I move, I may be better off just using my LaScalas for now and and buying a pair of THX subs. Anyone have a chance to demo poorly placed K horns and want to chime in?

Tid

[Daddy Dee]

I'd say go with the Khorns. I think there are probably some tweaks (if needed) that can yield a happy result.

Only one corner is bad? The door can stay closed, right? I think you'll love the Khorns.

I ran LaScalas with a sub before getting Khorns, and I was shocked at

the improvement Khorns brought. I just wasn't expecting the difference

to be as noticeable as it was.

[customsteve01]

If you get the K-horns what are you going to do with your Lascalas???

Is the door they will be in front of still be used?? If not you could build a false corner for that one speaker and lose nothing.[]


Steve

[Parrot]

It'd help if we knew more about the room and the door. But the door is

not a dealkiller on its own. Take a look at this old Klipschorn ad.

That setup would make the more anal fellows here flip their wigs.

[WMcD]

I'm going to say that the KHorns are going to be about the same as the LS. Part of the reason is that there is a decent argument to be made that the LS are also compromised by the room corners, or lack thereof. At least it is something to consider. And, both benefit from "the room" when there is not a good corner seal for the K-Horn.

Please note that there are probably three issues. 1) a good seal for last portion of the KHorn. 2) The existence of good corners. 3) The rest of the room. In the comparison you have, 1) is a big issue for the K-Horn. But both KHorn and LS, i.e. you, have 2) and 3). They even out the conditions of the comparison.

It is a really tough issue to get any sort of hard data. About a year ago I posted the AES paper on the LS. It is tough to find stuff with the new BBS but someone may point the way or repost it. The sound curves of the LS and KHorn are there.

It does show some better bass extension with the KHorn.

I'm quite sure that PWK would not fudge the numbers. None the less, I'm of a mind that he ran the tests in a room which was optimized acoustically and both speakers were in the optimum postions.

What is not shown there, or much anywhere else, is the relative effect of poor conditions. An exception is a couple of reviews of the KHorn in a French magazine. And also the AES article which compares the Jubilee to the KHorn in an outside corner. These generally show the K-Horn does rely upon the room for bass extension. The same may be projected upon the LS, or any other speaker.

A long time ago, a friend has a pair of SpeakerLab SKs and no good corners. Not so bad. I have some Belles which are close to LS. Not so bad. Such memory comparisons are very very unscientific.

The bottom line is that I'm very torn. Happily, you've asked whether you'll be disappointed with the K-Horn. I think no. It will give you something to appreciate and fool with.

Gil

[Duke Spinner]

i have only 1/2 corner on one KH ...........

right into a doorway with the grillecloth

it ain't so bad .....[]

[Frzninvt]

I would still take Khorn's with no so good corners over La Scala's, they still take up less floor space. I don't have perfect corners for all of them and they still sound killer.

[mark1101]

This is a close call IMHO. The reason is that he mentions the THX subs. Those are a pretty penny if you are talking about the Klipsch ones and the associated electronics.

LaScalas and THOSE subs (I assume 2) offer excellent flexibility over a pair of Khorns. I am running LaScalas with mediocre Velodyne subs and I get great results in a less than perfect acoustical environment since things are in pieces and can be moved for best results.

I think that for the price of the TXH subs and electronics alone you could buy both Khorns and LaScalas, and have plenty left over for a bunch of nice XMas presents.

I would go with the LaScalas and THX subs since that combination also offers more interesting HD possibilities over the Khorns.

Khorns will probably never go away and you should always be able to find some later.

[tidmack]

Thanks for the responses guys. I'm leaning toward pulling the trigger on the Horns, but Parrot made a great point about actually seeing the room. I'll try to post some pics tonight to let you all know a bit more about where they'd be going. I'm keeping the LaScalas no matter what and would probably run them with the Horns. The long term idea is to eventually (in another house) put together an all Heritage home theater.

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Mark brought up a good point that I didnt really think too long about either. I could buy a pair of Klipsch THX subs to run with the Scalas, rather than purchase the K Horns. That route may give me the best bang for the buck with my current room situation. But again, the K Horn deal is quite attractive price-wise.

Ill get some pics of my livingroom posted tonight after work. Ratio-wise for length/width, its pretty decent at 12 X 20. But as youll see, I only have one decent corner in the WHOLE room! If anyone else wants to chime in, all thoughts are appreciated-

Tid

[Colin]

what is Khorn FR with corners versus Khorn FR without corners?[:^)]

[mark1101]

Another option is to install some false corners on the mighty Khorns. Then, you don't need to worry about any of the room corners.

Several on this forum have done that and there is plenty of info around on how to. I have seen some really nicely done ones that I would have in a minute.

Actually, purchasing the THX subs is a BIG investment, maybe not the best bang for the buck. But I know they are awesome. They are more the "cost is no object" solution to get LaScalas to perform like Khorns.

One recommendation, if the Khorns you purchase are not new consider rebuilding or replacing the networks. The components in the stock networks degrade significantly over time, and it is not always obvious. It has also become generally accepted that although the Heritage line sound great stock, they can sound better. Network mods have proven to be one of the more cost effective system upgrades. Something to look into.

Enjoy.

[dlb945]

I have a door on the right sidewall corner where the right Klipschorn sits. It is one of two doors leading out from my daylight basement so when we moved into the house about 7 years ago, I thought about eliminating the door. I decided to try it for a while without going through the work of removing the door and building up the sidewall inside and out. I continue to listen with the door intact and have been quite happy. The door stays.

A few years ago, I plugged an HP Audio Signal Generator into my preamp, placed a RadioShack digital audio meter on the back of my chair, and took comparison measurements between the left and right Klipschorns at 300, 200, 100, 60, 40 and 20 HZ. The right Klipschorn measured the same although it differed 1db lower at 60 and 40 HZ. Although I could feel the 20 HZ signal from each of the two Klipschorns by placing my hand on the enclosures, I could not hear the tone nor did my meter read the signal. This was not very scientific and was only done to convince me to leave things unchanged. Conclusion: the door makes a difference but not enough to merit the work to remove the door or to build a false corner.

>>>Dan

[tidmack]

Dan,

Thanks for your info, it helps greatly. It seems like I'm being wishy washy with info. but here's the scoop: I work part time for a local furniture/electronics store and can buy new Klipsch at pretty attractive prices. I've finally saved enough money and can splurge a bit. The chance to own new K-horns is a dream come true, but as mentioned, my current room isn't ideal. The Klipsch THX twins (w/ currently owned LaScalas) might be a better option right now, but I'm trying to look at future scenerios too. I'll try to post some pics tonight to give everyone a better idea of what my room looks like.

[Jeff Matthews]

It seems to me that the bass-deficiency of a LaScala as compared to a K-Horn can be made up by turning up the bass on your stereo. How's that for a free, easy solution?

[Colin]

Not good enough Jeff,

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Just like changing the bass control on your receiver wont make your Corns sound like classic Klipsch corner Khorns. LaScala have bass, but only down to 50Hz and they dont have the 80-100Hz bass bump that I measured in my horizontal horn, B2 crossover, walnut oiled Cornwalls. Turning up the bass control doesn't dramatically lower the frequency response to 30Hz from 50Hz. Too much bass from the receiver will over compensate the mid and upper bass, along with the mid-range. More than any other large big ole horn, the LaScala and Belle models need deep subwoofer support.

[NOSValves]

Good corners or bad corners Lascalas are a better speaker anyway.

[D-MAN]

Good corners or bad corners Lascalas are a better speaker anyway.

Oh, P-L-E-A-S-E!

Just because Craig is biased (he owns LS's)...

I'd go with the Khorns. If you have 1 good corner, the Khorn(s) will outperform the LS, even with a less-than-optimum corner on one side.

DM

[NOSValves]

Good corners or bad corners Lascalas are a better speaker anyway.

Oh, P-L-E-A-S-E!

Just because Craig is biased (he owns LS's)...

I'd go with the Khorns. If you have 1 good corner, the Khorn(s) will outperform the LS, even with a less-than-optimum corner on one side.

DM

Just because DM is biased (he owns Khorns)...

I'd go with the Lascalas. You don't need corners for LS, you can fine tune your placement without corner restrictions. For Khorn's to be optimal the room is everything. If you want low bass get a quality subwoofer.

Craig

[D-MAN]

OK, Craig, you MIGHT have a point! A very SLIGHT one!

Those of us with large corner horns are not very likely to compromise, as can be seen by our choice of speakers...

I feel safe in assuming that "we" also are not likely to recommend a compromise, either! It's just part of our psychology.

So Craig - it would appear that we cancel each other's "votes" out?

DM

[JJkizak]

Since the K-horn bass section is a horn, if you take away 1/2 of the horn what happens to the efficiency? Just like yelling into cupped hands, and you take one hand away you loose a bunch of efficiency.

JJK