Jeff Matthews Posted December 20, 2005 Share Posted December 20, 2005 In relation to power, those speakers will deliver 104 db at one meter with one watt. They max out at 121 db. Okay, but if they max out at 121dB, then why have any amp over 64 watts? I assume headroom for peaks wouldn't make a difference because if they're maxed out, you can't go beyond max, no? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cal Blacksmith Posted December 20, 2005 Share Posted December 20, 2005 No, they will take 100w cont and 400 peak, don't feed them 200 cont or you will have problems. DESIGN LIMITS remember? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Posted December 20, 2005 Share Posted December 20, 2005 Jeff, one reason (among many) that people want more watts is to get more headroom from loudspeakers that arent very dynamic cones. Most of what you learn in audio goes out the window when you are dealing with the awesome efficiency and high sensitivity of compression drivers in horn arrays with horn loaded woofers (big ole horns). On Nelson Pass majestic $6K, Single-Ended, Class-A, X250 Stereo Amplifier(February 2002, http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/equipment/0202/passx250.htm) and MacIntosh amsp, which show actual power use, actual output of only three watts will give plenty of loudness, six watts will be painful and a mere ten watts will give headroom. [H] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ricktate Posted December 21, 2005 Share Posted December 21, 2005 Please seal the tailboard and the horz. bass binn board to the wall with 1 inch pipe insulation or 1 1/2 if your gap is to big.Im sure BEC will be glad to help you out with upgrade on the crossover as well ALK will to.Build a False corner for the one speaker by the fireplace, only needs to be as high as the bass binn so looks good to...will take awhile to make a good false corner there are alot of ways to make one and how good you want it to look.Best way is to make one where the speaker sits on it...kinda hard to explain but there are pics on the forum...just imagine a corner of the room including floor cut out of a room.I got pics of the crossovers i updated and pics of the ALKs i made not that hard to do. But for now just seal the tailboards and listen to those Ks and have fun....remember it is all about the fun....Rick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J M O N Posted December 21, 2005 Share Posted December 21, 2005 First of all, congratulations on your new purchase!! You sure do move fast. I have to say, you were probably a little lucky as well as it normally can take a bit of time to find Khorns, and you seemed to have found a very nice pair. This should turn out to be one of the best purchases you will ever make, both in audio and otherwise. Second, regarding the finish, the walnut oil veneer is going to need some care. If they seem to be a little bit dry, they will need to be oiled. There are several options and lots of opinions on what works best. One of the more popular options in boiled linseed oil (BLO). One of the knowledgeable members here frequently recommended a 2:1 mix of BLO with turpentine (I believe that's what it was). However, I might also suggest using Watco rejuvinating oil which can be found at Home Depot / Lowes. This basically is a BLO mixture, and although more expensive than straight BLO, is ready to apply and is basically a turnkey treatment. This is what I have used on my walnut oil Khorns and I have to say the results are impressive. Do read and follow the directions as rags used to apply BLO can spontaneously combust. Store them in metal containers. If you happen to receive fruit cake for Christmas, don't despair as the tins that fruit cakes come in make great containers for these rags. It's what I used. Heck, you may even be able to use the fruitcake to apply the stuff. If the wood is somewhat dry, you may need to apply a few coats. I applied one coat each day for about five days and got some very deeply colored walnut with a very nice sheen. My wife doesn't argue too much when I suggest that the Khorns are the nicest pieces of furniture we have in our house.Third, whatever you do next, I would suggest you exercise patience. I wouldn't make any significant purchases for at least a few months. Do your homework and research the things you may be considering before jumping into something. Your fast action in purchasing these beasts will pay off, but you probably won't be as lucky if you move too quickly on your next move.Lastly, when you are ready to do some more upgrading, I would highly suggest you consider some kind of tube amplification -- at least in the preamp or power amp section if not in both. I have found that having tubes at least somewhere in the chain makes a big difference. Let me tell you, I've owned some highly regarded (and expensive) solid-state equipment, and while they sounded VERY good, they were just outmatched by tubes. There is a richness and smoothness (l also call it liquidity) that tubes bring to the table. The sound is also more organic, which to me makes it sound less like it's being produced by electronic equipment and more like the real thing. That over-used phrase "you will want to listen to all your music all over again" has never been more applicable than when I first introduced tubes to my system. My wife has an Ella Fitzgerald CD that has songs recorded back in the 50's and 60's. Despite that, it really does sound like Ella is singing in the room. Even my wife agrees and she's no audiophile, she just likes music (but she probably has better hearing than I do since women supposedly hear better than men). Of course tubes are more fussy, and solid-state does have some advantages over tubes, but all-in-all, I'd suggest going for tubes as I believe the benefits are worth it. You don't necessarily have to spend a ton of money to get great results either. This is where doing your homework and being patient will pay off. A good source should also be considered, and here you don't have to spend a lot either.You and your husband have a lot of musical enjoyment in front of you. Don't ever forget, it's all about the music and the gear is just a means to that enjoyment. Being a fellow Klipschorn owner just means that you are privileged to have some of the best means there is to reach that enjoyment. Happy listening! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meagain Posted December 21, 2005 Author Share Posted December 21, 2005 Thanks guys. Jmon - I'm going to print your post for hubby. Let me understand - did you use BLO or the Watco on your khorns? What I'm concerned about is darkening them further. They are pretty dark! I'm wondering if straight Turp or Mineral spirits would pull some of the old stain out for me? IDK if I'm seeing stain or the natural color of the wood. Not sure I can lighten them first. Also seller said he put some mineral oil on it at some point which I think isn't best. I wish there was a pic gallery here to see everyone's speakers with what they've done to them. I'm not finding alot of pictures. Jmon - would love to see yours! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3dzapper Posted December 21, 2005 Share Posted December 21, 2005 meagan, The veneer is thick enough to take a light sanding to remove some of the darkened layer. If after working in some of the Watco in an inconspicous area, the hue remains too dark, sanding with 220 grit in the direction of the grain might be the next necessary step. Watco, basically a mix of BLO and mineral spirits, would then be applied to bring out the grain and natural color. I recently refinished a pair of Belles that had been in a storage barn for years and used BLO slightly thinned with mineral spirits. The resulting color is what I call "M-1 gunstock." A bit darker than I had hoped for. Next time, I will use the Watco myself. If you do decide to sand, use a sanding block and do not sand too much near the edges. Rick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meagain Posted December 21, 2005 Author Share Posted December 21, 2005 Tuit - What color Watco would you recommend? http://www.constantines.com/ProductImages/Finishing/watco.jpg If I wanted to warm them up - not 'red' like red mahogony, or red cherry - just so they aren't poop brown.... I wonder if using the cherry or fruitwood would help assuming I can't or don't want to lighten them via sanding or bleach. I suppose I could mix some cherry with natural or something. Wish I had an identical piece of walnut to play with. Sanding scares me as I know if it's not perfectly done - I can get blotches. If I went this route, what grit would be recommended for a very light skim coat sand? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Matthews Posted December 21, 2005 Share Posted December 21, 2005 I would not try to sand them at all unless absolutely necessary. The veneer is thin, and yes, you can sand it a little, but keep in mind that after sanding you have a thinner veneer left. Then, if they get scratched or dinged and future sanding is necessary, you'll have no room left to sand again. Sand veneer only when absolutely necessary. Your pictures show nice-looking speakers by the way. They are not too dark at all. You say they look a little dull. You might try a very, very, very light sand - just to smooth out the fingerprints. [] Then, you could apply 4 or 5 coats of polyurethane with light buffing in between coats to make them shiny. I've never heard anyone tell me you could lighten wood that is already stained. If you find something, patent it. Try whatever suggestions you want - but on a piece of scrap wood. You can stain the scrap dark and then play with it to see if you can get it to lighten. Allow the scrap to dry thoroughly after you apply the dark stain; otherwise, it might not be a fair test. I'd almost be willing to bet that you can't lighten it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Matthews Posted December 21, 2005 Share Posted December 21, 2005 I just saw your recent post that hit before my reply. The lightest sanding is done using the paper with the highest grit number. 60 is coarse, 120 is fine. Use the highest grit you can buy. Also, you really might try my polyurethane suggestion. A thick, shiny, glossy sheen will make the poop not look like poop. [] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PrestonTom Posted December 21, 2005 Share Posted December 21, 2005 I agree with the above. Avoid the sanding, it is too easy to mess up and it is frequently an ineffective way to remove the stain (if in fact there was any stain). Although polyuretahne is convenient, it is really not furniture grade material. Oils or lacquers are best for that. Incidentally, at this point, additional coats of oil (danish or BLO) will not further darken the finish (unless it is pigmented). Good Luck, -Tom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3dzapper Posted December 21, 2005 Share Posted December 21, 2005 I would select "natural" Watco to let the true walnut colors show. The inside bottom of the top hat might be a good place to experiment. I won't be as "muddy" or oxidized as the outside but you can see some results without them showing. Jeff, The veneer Klipsch used back in "the day" is quite thick like .025" (1/42") or so. A light sanding should take no more than a couple of thousanths to break through the grunge exposing another cell layer for the new finish. Another thing to try is Panel Magic (?). It may remove some of the muddiness from the surface. I've never used it on speakers but it did a good job on our old kitchen cabinettes. Rick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mighty Favog Posted December 21, 2005 Share Posted December 21, 2005 The resulting color is what I call "M-1 gunstock." A bit darker than I had hoped for. Kind of a cosmoline brown....[] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meagain Posted December 23, 2005 Author Share Posted December 23, 2005 First off, I appreciate all your help. Thank you! (I'm leaning towards the Watco oil and will play around with that & BLO on a piece of oak I have.) I've a question.... Hubby mentioned a few things 'missing' in music he knows well. I queried him this am about this and he cited a Miles Davis tune 'Amandela(sp)' . Specifically he said that behind the trumpet is a sax and bass clarinet part. He said the notes were indistinguishable and they should be. He couldn't discern them properly. He is more familiar with that album than I and plays sax and clarinet, etc. so I'm trusting his ears on this one. I'm not sure where the midrange horn (squawker?) stops and the tweeter kicks in, but I think the sax & bass clarinet would be the midrange? Not really sure how to test these things out properly. I'll be doing some listening today. Going to stick my ear next to the 2 horns to see if anything is amiss. Tonight I'll have him pull the khorns out & check all wires/screws and will then seal them into the wall with pipe insulation. He mentioned some pc program to test sounds & using one of his mics but not sure what exactly he was referring to. Edit: There's something "hall-like" about them that I don't care for. I wouldn't say echo-y exactly, but hall-like and not warm. Maybe my room. The downloadable manual doesn't seem to have room dimension info, etc. IDK why there's so little information about these to be had. Guess I'll have to call Klipsch as I'm also trying to find a schematic of what the crossover parts are called. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duke Spinner Posted December 23, 2005 Share Posted December 23, 2005 mine have newer X-overs in them,1995, so I am somewhat confident they are ok .. and yes, there is a problem with missing detail...i'm guessing 300-400 hz .... i immediately noticed this replacing my jbl 4430's w/ the KH Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meagain Posted December 23, 2005 Author Share Posted December 23, 2005 Duke - Are you saying those JBL's were better than the khorns? And did the new crossovers in the khorns resolve the issue for you? I want that detail back in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duke Spinner Posted December 23, 2005 Share Posted December 23, 2005 no, the X-overs are original to the speakers ...no doubt some upgrade is in order the 4430's are a very detailed speaker, of course they are true Studio Monitors they don't rock like the KH, tho ....[] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meagain Posted December 23, 2005 Author Share Posted December 23, 2005 OK - Don't scare me like that! Those JBL's are pretty cool looking though. Duke - I'm suprised you didn't change the crossovers yet as you seem to be heavily 'into' all this stuff. I'm curious as to what you use for your main listening speakers? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duke Spinner Posted December 23, 2005 Share Posted December 23, 2005 I rotate between the speakers every couple months.... each does something the other doesn't .... what's in rotation .... Altec 19's Altec 1208 KH JBL 4430 ............................................................................... JBL L-7 for HT Forte 2 for music room Chorus 2 for cottage JBL -L-36 for computer room JBL Scoops for Sound Reinforcement that's got it covered ...! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tigerwoodKhorns Posted December 23, 2005 Share Posted December 23, 2005 Duke, There was a pair of 4430's for sale on eBay recently in mint condition. They were just beautiful. In Phoenix too. I was tempted but I cannot possibly bring home another pair of speakers (lets not mention the speakerlab's sitting the garage). How do the 4430's compare the K Horns? Meagin, Don't let all of this alarm you. The JBL's that Duke is referring to are pretty high end. The K Horns are very detailed compared to almost anything out there. Just listen for a while. The shortcommings that you hear can all be tweaked away. Mine sound so much different than the day I rough them home. Tubes sound awesome. No doubt about it. If you have a wheelbarrel full of money, there is a set of VRD's and a set of ALK's for sale right now. Add another $1300 for an AH CD player and about $1400 for a Peach and you are set, for a while, for about $5,000... unless you decide to tube roll. I am listening to a Peach and a $100 teac digital amp right now. Quite a combo! Again, just listen for a while before you buy anything. Work on restoring the finish first. That will help the sound. What crossovers do you have right now? Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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