meagain Posted January 10, 2006 Share Posted January 10, 2006 Well then - how does one possibly go about buying new x-overs since there are choices and each choice would have it's own sound/flavor? Does one try to zero on any perceived problems or areas that could use improvement then tell the x-over builder and they pick the appropriate set? Or would one just list anything they'd like to preserve (like low end), etc? It just seems like a leap of faith. Pick one and hope it sounds good. Then again, I see some can be tweaked (attenuated) and that has to account for some control over the flavor - right? And I wonder if that extra choice is easily perceived when changed? I for one would love to see a thread with people attempting to describe the differences in the offerings. It's pretty confusing for a newbie. Me anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Matthews Posted January 11, 2006 Author Share Posted January 11, 2006 I think it's confusing for them, too. From the way Dean describes it, it would be like asking a waiter for a flavor of ice cream you've never tried - where you start using terms like "sweet (but not overbearing), with a hint of syrup (but not too gooey)." The waiter would definitely have to struggle with your attempt to say what you would like as he flips through the different possible flavors that he can recall. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted January 11, 2006 Share Posted January 11, 2006 LOL, yeah, it can get a bit nutty. Most start by getting their speakers back to spec to form a valid baseline -- this is where you're both at now, and no one does this better than Bob - period. Now, I can do it as good as Bob, but I can't do it for the same price -- my parts cost a bit more and it takes me longer to build a set. I'm sure Bob believes it would be good to start and stop with him, because he really believes the PWK way is the only way -- but most eventually figure out and experience the limitations of these networks. There's just more that has to be done if you want lower distortion through the midrange. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3dzapper Posted January 11, 2006 Share Posted January 11, 2006 So anyway Dean, after hinting for months that I wanted a "free" audition of your Super networks, today I decided to take the bull by the horns and build one. Only problem, I didn't have any coils. I did have some #18 litz wire though. So I rolled my own! Good within about 10% not perfect. I had to do it by counting turns, that stuff is impossible to measure until you get the ends tinned. I'll try it out tommorrow v an ALK in the other Belle both on 5&2. I must tell you that I respect your ears more since I followed your advice and tried some trachorns in the Khorns. So what did you do yesterday? Rick BTW: I won't be rolling too many more litz coils, too much agina for the money. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BEC Posted January 11, 2006 Share Posted January 11, 2006 I do think rebuilding the old networks is at least the place to start. After all, the old networks must have been good enough to keep Klipsch in the speaker business longer than just about every other speaker company. Any new competent crossover design will beat a worn out old crossover, but that is not a fair comparison. When you compare a new design to a rebuilt original crossover or a newly built crossover of the old design, the test becomes better and the results are not as predictable. I have seen the preference go both ways with some preferring a new design and some preferring the freshened up old design. I would much prefer that people do not pronounce the PWK designs to be junk without giving his designs a fair chance. That "fair chance" would be getting crossovers back to original specs. Then you would at least have the right "starting point" for comparison. Bob Crites Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted January 11, 2006 Share Posted January 11, 2006 "I would much prefer that people do not pronounce the PWK designs to be junk without giving his designs a fair chance..." I absolutely agree with that statement. We all know Al doesn't like them, but I have very little problem enjoying them as long as I don't go crazy with the volume control knob -- they do sound better tweaked though -- and significant improvement being heard over here with the addition of that coil between the autoformer and squawker. Very nice job Bob, and I can't believe I didn't think of it first. I tried the same thing over the summer but had the coil on the other side of the autoformer tied between the 13uF cap and the input tap -- and it just sounded too lossy. Moving the thing to the other side made a huge difference, which I'm sure has mostly to do with the fact that the coil only needs to be half as big on that side. You should drop a .40mH in there and have a listen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frzninvt Posted January 11, 2006 Share Posted January 11, 2006 Speaking of crossover networks Dean, are mine on the way? Contacting you by electronic means is challenging to say the least. Please advise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted January 11, 2006 Share Posted January 11, 2006 Aggravating isn't it? Packed but not shipped yet. I have Bronchitis in a bad way and haven't done crap in two days. I didn't come into work until 11 today and just saw the email a bit ago. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daddy Dee Posted January 11, 2006 Share Posted January 11, 2006 So anyway Dean, after hinting for months that I wanted a "free" audition of your Super networks, today I decided to take the bull by the horns and build one. Only problem, I didn't have any coils. I did have some #18 litz wire though. So I rolled my own! Good within about 10% not perfect. I had to do it by counting turns, that stuff is impossible to measure until you get the ends tinned. I'll try it out tommorrow v an ALK in the other Belle both on 5&2. I must tell you that I respect your ears more since I followed your advice and tried some trachorns in the Khorns. So what did you do yesterday? Rick BTW: I won't be rolling too many more litz coils, too much agina for the money. Rick, You are a regular renaissance man. Dean or Bob, What is the coil you are talking about? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frzninvt Posted January 11, 2006 Share Posted January 11, 2006 Will they be going out tomorrow I hope? I need to get Dr. Bill's networks to him but can't until I get these from you or else I have to go speakerless. It takes like two days from OH to VT so if they so out tomorrow I still won't see them until Monday 1/16 so anything you can do will be greatly appreciated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BEC Posted January 11, 2006 Share Posted January 11, 2006 Dean said "haven't done crap in two days" Try Ex-Lax Dee, You are using the coil. Bob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted January 11, 2006 Share Posted January 11, 2006 Well Bob, I'm not the one that's full of ... ah never mind, I can't say that to you. Where's Craig? "Speakerless", who in the hell you trying to kid? Man, that would be terrible to go from 6 down to 4. First thing in the morning Charles I promise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3dzapper Posted January 11, 2006 Share Posted January 11, 2006 Most definately an improvement from a recapped AA. Rick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted January 11, 2006 Share Posted January 11, 2006 You know I'm going to ask: what did you build them with. I know you wound up your angina, uh, I mean your own inductors -- what about the caps? This network really responds well to better parts -- that .20mH low pass inductor for the squawker in particular needs to be a very good part. To Al's dismay -- taps 4 and 0 at my house with the Super AA, Trachorn and JBL 2470's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3dzapper Posted January 11, 2006 Share Posted January 11, 2006 Double post Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3dzapper Posted January 11, 2006 Share Posted January 11, 2006 "You know I'm going to ask: what did you build them with." A pair of white 20uFs, Aerovox made in Mexico, an ASC 2.2uF and a Dayton 4.0uF my roll your own 18ga litz wire coils (good quality litz wire), the original T2A and LF inductor. The caps are as good as any Solen makes but not PPT Theta quality fer sure. The LF inductor is "adequite" but I should change it for another for continued use. I am also buying three BEC autoformers from sfogg. Like I said, I just whipped it up for a taste. It tastes good but with a little salt. and a dash of spices will be delicious.[] If you would like, I'll send you a few of those 20uF Aerovox caps for you to taste. I have more. I don't remember where my ALKs in the Khorns are. My initial impression with the trachorns is that of a clearer midrange not necessesarily more volume. I may well be at 4 and 0 already. As a matter of fact, I just looked and I am. Rick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted January 11, 2006 Share Posted January 11, 2006 "My initial impression with the trachorns is that of a clearer midrange not necessesarily more volume." Excellent, you hear it too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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