Klipsch Modding - Has It Gone Too Far?

[chops]

Why are we all here? Why do we all own Klipsch loudspeakers?

I believe we are here because we all love to that famous Klipsch sound.

Don't get me wrong, I love to mod things just as much as the next guy, but I do believe there's a limit to where modding should stopped. Now I'm not talking about CornScalla's, CT125's, Bob's, Al's or Dean's networks or even building totally different enclosures all together. Even using an Altec 511b or 811b horn with a K55 driver is ok, but even that's starting to push it to the limit. All you're doing is taking the existing loudspeaker and the associated components and making them work better together. That's perfectly fine and I enjoy reading and seeing some of the ideas your guys come up with. Any combination you come up with, it's still going to have that Klipsch sound due to the drivers and horns being used. That's what brought you to Klipsch in the first place, isn't it?

But when you completely rework a speaker into something entirely different is where I draw the line. This includes modifications such as changing out the squawker horn to an Altec 511b or 811b with an Altec driver, or like one guy did to a pair of Khorns, completely eliminating the squawker all together and replacing it with a pair of 10" JBL drivers and a JBL bi-radial horn tweeter. Hate to say it, but you no longer have a Klipsch Khorn with that "Klipsch" sound. You now have a Frankenstein loudspeaker that kinda looks like a Khorn, but sounds like an Altec or JBL.

If you don't care for the sound of Klipsch, then why did you spend $1000-$7000+ to buy them in the first place? If you prefer Altec or JBL, there are plenty of V.O.T.'s and vintage JBL's on eBay to snag up.

I'm sorry if I'm ranting, I just don't grasp the concept of going to this extreme rout of modding Klipsch.

[tofu]

Why are we all here? Why do we all own Klipsch loudspeakers?

I believe we are here because we all love to that famous Klipsch sound.

Don't get me wrong, I love to mod things just as much as the next guy, but I do believe there's a limit to where modding should stopped. Now I'm not talking about CornScalla's, CT125's, Bob's, Al's or Dean's networks or even building totally different enclosures all together. Even using an Altec 511b or 811b horn with a K55 driver is ok, but even that's starting to push it to the limit. All you're doing is taking the existing loudspeaker and the associated components and making them work better together. That's perfectly fine and I enjoy reading and seeing some of the ideas your guys come up with. Any combination you come up with, it's still going to have that Klipsch sound due to the drivers and horns being used. That's what brought you to Klipsch in the first place, isn't it?

But when you completely rework a speaker into something entirely different is where I draw the line. This includes modifications such as changing out the squawker horn to an Altec 511b or 811b with an Altec driver, or like one guy did to a pair of Khorns, completely eliminating the squawker all together and replacing it with a pair of 10" JBL drivers and a JBL bi-radial horn tweeter. Hate to say it, but you no longer have a Klipsch Khorn with that "Klipsch" sound. You now have a Frankenstein loudspeaker that kinda looks like a Khorn, but sounds like an Altec or JBL.

If you don't care for the sound of Klipsch, then why did you spend $1000-$7000+ to buy them in the first place? If you prefer Altec or JBL, there are plenty of V.O.T.'s and vintage JBL's on eBay to snag up.

I'm sorry if I'm ranting, I just don't grasp the concept of going to this extreme rout of modding Klipsch.

i'm not fully understanding you here...

why would one draw a line if sound is continually being improved? personally, i don't buy audio components for emotional reasons, i buy them because of the way they perform. if i thought bose had a better sounding stock speaker, i would've purchased it over my la scalas in a heartbeat. my 511b's sound better and so do my altec 902's. i'm not sure why i should limit myself just so my speakers sound like something inferior.

klipsch speakers are great, but there will never be a product that can't be further improved. the two speakers most talked about here (khorn, la scala) are great stock, but it'd just be silly to say they can't sound better.

[tigerwoodKhorns]

Why are we all here? Why do we all own Klipsch loudspeakers?

But when you completely rework a speaker into something entirely different is where I draw the line.

Your right. Because you don't like others modding their Klipsch speakers, we are all going to stop. Sorry for dissapointing you.

Your arbitrary determination that you allow the changing the mid horn, but not the driver, is also very well founded.

You need to go over to the Lansing forum and whip all of them into shape too. Those crazy kids are all tearing apart their JB's and Altecs.

Hurry, we don't want anyone enjoying their hobby in a way that is different than the way that you enjoy it.

[jwc]

I'm not sure I get it either. Why would you care about what other people do with their money? Yes I love Klipsch speakers.

If I buy a Cadillac with a Bose system...then yank out the Sound system and put my custom one in there.....is it no longer a Cadillac? Call it what you want..."Franken" Cadillac with a nice set of pimped-out spinning rims.

If I want to take a La Scala...lay it on its side....and take a chainsaw to it....that's my problem.

Or better yet...drop a pair of Khorns off a 100 foot building and then go to the nearest dealer and buy a new pair.

Damn I love this forum!

jc

[chops]

You're missing my point tofu.

Most people that buy Klipsch buy them because they like that "Klipsch" sound so much. That's also why some folks who are fortunate enough to afford it and have the space in their house for it, go out and buy several different pairs of Klipsch loudspeakers.

I'm not against improving the sound. Far from it, but there is a point when it gets to be too much.

What I'm getting at is if you have a $4000 pair of LS' and then mod them by putting in 511b's and 902's and a new network to adjust everything for the change, you no longer have a LS with that "Klipsch" sound.

If it were me and I was not happy with the sound of the stock LS', then I would have saved that $4000 and built my own loudspeakers with the 511b, 902, a nice horn tweeter of some kind, a heavier duty woofer than the K33, and a custom network for a lot less.

I'm not saying there's anything wrong with completely redesigning a Klipsch loudspeaker. It's your speakers and money to do what you want with. It's just that it's no longer what you first purchased, a Klipsch.

It's kind of like with my Mazda Miata. That car was designed to mimic the old britsh roadsters and be an excellent handling little FUN car that can be tossed in and out of corners with a flick of the wrist; light and nimble. It wasn't designed for power and speed. So when you get one of those Ford V8 motor swap kits for it, you now have a very powerfull and fast little Miata, but is doesn't handle worth a crap anymore and has no traction. It's no longer a TRUE Miata anymore. It's an abomination somewhere between a Ford Mustang and a shoe box at that point.

[chops]

Now come on people. Let's not all get pissed off and start a flame war here. That wasn't my intent, and still isn't.

I just figured this would become an interesting thread to see what you guys had to say, not to burn me at the stake.

[jacksonbart]

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[chops]

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Gee.. Thanks. [:|]

[jacksonbart]

Anything I do to help.

[jwc]

Now come on people. Let's not all get pissed off and start a flame war here. That wasn't my intent, and still isn't.

I just figured this would become an interesting thread to see what you guys had to say, not to burn me at the stake.

Actually Chops...I was just kiddin. It just seemed like a great opportunity to be a smart A$$.

I am going to agree with some of your initial statement. The part I will agree with is that it would be very difficult for me to "ruin" a Klipsch Heritage speaker by making a "mod" that is irreversible. However, I would consider it on a beat up pair or just a real old pair that needed cuttin'. For the record, I have never done what you are stating. I have upgraded networks.

On the other hand...I have build stuff from ground up and have never called them a Bell, Khorn, Cornwall or La Scala.

So what brought me here? In 2001, I bought a used pair of 88' La Scalas with AL networks. I thought I would be able to "show them off" but they sounded horrible. I knew there had to be something I could do. Well...I joined the forum, bought a pair of AL's ALK Universal A's. I then realized that "UPGRADES" can make a real difference. That network is far from the "classic" PWK stuff. So is it still a Klipsch speaker or does it keep the klipsch sound? Not sure man.

jc[]

[tofu]

You're missing my point tofu.

Most people that buy Klipsch buy them because they like that "Klipsch" sound so much. That's also why some folks who are fortunate enough to afford it and have the space in their house for it, go out and buy several different pairs of Klipsch loudspeakers.

I'm not against improving the sound. Far from it, but there is a point when it gets to be too much.

What I'm getting at is if you have a $4000 pair of LS' and then mod them by putting in 511b's and 902's and a new network to adjust everything for the change, you no longer have a LS with that "Klipsch" sound.

If it were me and I was not happy with the sound of the stock LS', then I would have saved that $4000 and built my own loudspeakers with the 511b, 902, a nice horn tweeter of some kind, a heavier duty woofer than the K33, and a custom network for a lot less.

I'm not saying there's anything wrong with completely redesigning a Klipsch loudspeaker. It's your speakers and money to do what you want with. It's just that it's no longer what you first purchased, a Klipsch.

It's kind of like with my Mazda Miata. That car was designed to mimic the old britsh roadsters and be an excellent handling little FUN car that can be tossed in and out of corners with a flick of the wrist; light and nimble. It wasn't designed for power and speed. So when you get one of those Ford V8 motor swap kits for it, you now have a very powerfull and fast little Miata, but is doesn't handle worth a crap anymore and has no traction. It's no longer a TRUE Miata anymore. It's an abomination somewhere between a Ford Mustang and a shoe box at that point.

to be honest, i don't know of anyone on these forums who bought their speakers for $4k and did irreversable modifications to them. mine were bought used.

at the time i purchased my speakers, i had no intention of modifying them. hell, i didn't even know altec made anything aside from computer speakers. if i were to build the cabinets myself and make all my "modified part substitutions," i might have saved a few hundred, but i needed a good foundation to work from. had i known then what i know now, things probably would have worked out differently.

i did not buy my speakers because they had a "klipsch sound." i bought them because i liked what i heard. same applies to my modifications. i did not do them because i'm an altec fan, but rather because it sounds better than a bone stock la scala. i'm fully aware that it's not 100% a klipsch speaker anymore, and i don't try to pass it off as one.

[travisc]

how about actually making a dog house out of some lascalas, maybe a bird house in the top section, ya if you left the k-400 in it and say some bluebirds nested in it and sang whilst inside, sure would sound nice. now picture a 511'b with a bluebird driver....ok I'm done, maybe I'll do the dishes[8-)]

[chops]

maybe a bird house in the top section, ya if you left the k-400 in it and say some bluebirds nested in it and sang whilst inside, sure would sound nice. now picture a 511'b with a bluebird driver....[8-)]

Especially while playing Jimmy Rogers through them! [8-|]

[NOSValves]

I personally have no problem modifying the speakers myself or seeing others mod them to there hearts content. I do however get kind of upset when people start referring to "this Klipsch network is crap" or "this Klipsch horn is garbage" and so on. These speakers are very good 100% stock! I think I could take a bone stock set of Heritage speakers replace the caps on the crossovers with stock values and live happily ever after without a second thought. I have both flavors in my home highly modified and bone stock with fresh caps in the x-overs. I love the sound of both.

Craig

[chops]

Thanks jwcullison and tofu. That's the kind of response I was looking for.

[chops]

I personally have no problem modifying the speakers myself or seeing others mod them to there hearts content. I do however get kind of upset when people start referring to "this Klipsch network is crap" or "this Klipsch horn is garbage" and so on. These speakers are very good 100% stock! I think I could take a bone stock set of Heritage speakers replace the caps on the crossovers with stock values and live happily ever after without a second thought. I have both flavors in my home highly modified and bone stock with fresh caps in the x-overs. I love the sound of both.

Craig

Yeah, that's what I'm getting at. The Heritage line is an already great group to begin with, and yes I see where a few tweaks like tweeters and crossover networks can help, at least on my older CWs anyway.

Speaking of which, what are these other replacement caps with stock values you speak of? Are they better than the EOM oil caps, and if so, why? And are they good for use with the CT125s? What do they do for the sound?

[JJkizak]

When I purchased the K-horns and Cornwall in 1965 I believed at the time they were way ahead of everyone else technology wise. I had no idea where the components came from or who made them other than Klipsch. The zillions of hours that went into the final product I assumed every component on the market was tried and tested. Forty five years later technology has progressed and that's why I believe newer metal formulations, plastics, etc are being implemented in all Klipsch speakers. While my old crossovers were ok, Deans with all the new technology are superior. Also checking for proper sealing of the bass horn, sealing against the wall, helps a lot. I found out over the years that a large room (25 x 25 feet with high ceilings) had the best performance. I had them in 4 different rooms. The 17 ft wall was the worst dimension. The room size now is 24 x 14 ft and is the third best and it still chokes them down a bit. What I'm saying is room size and speaker location make the biggest difference. It all ends up that everyone hears sounds differently and will continue to tweak things the way they want and the only way to prove who has the best system is by precise electronic measurment of which the quality of the equipment and the test setup would be argued until hell freezes over before any measurements can be taken into serious account. .

JJK

[Deang]

"Why are we all here?"

Well, this is the "Updates and Modifications" section of the forum, so I guess we're here so we can talk about updating and modding our speakers. Obviously someone at Klipsch decided to accomodate our lunacy by giving us our own little corner on the forum.

How far is too far? When the mod doesn't sound as good!

How far is far enough? When you're out of money!

I don't see the networks I build and sell so much as a modification as I do an "update". I've built and listened to just about all of the different networks, and if didn't think they were an improvement to other options I wouldn't waste my time building them. The later stock networks built with great parts compete admirably but I honestly don't think they sound as good. The only stock network I really enjoy is the simple Type A -- that thing has mojo -- but you can't really go to high SPL's with it. People do it all the time I suppose -- it's just a bit much for my sissy ears.

I used to think horn changeouts were ludicrous until it finally sank into my thick skull that, 1) a 1" throat has lower distortion than one with a 5/8" throat, 2) that there are horns that launch the sound into the room much more gracefully, and 3) that Klipsch themselves dropped the exponential horns from every speaker they make years ago save Heritage. They left these speakers alone because that's the way PK liked them -- but look what they're using in everything else.

A stock Heritage speaker is a very good sounding speaker, and a great platform from which to launch bigger and better things. It's just a simple fact of life that there are better drivers and horns, and if one is willing to do their homework it isn't all that difficult to get what I consider to be a much cleaner sounding speaker.

[TubeGuy]

So are these still Khorns?: ALK Universals, Trachorn w/ k55m's, CT 125's, Kimber 4tc wiring. I say yes and no.

Are my Khorns fast and dynamic with that famous Khorn bass? You bet.

Are they more articulate with better imaging than original? Yes.

Do they have better bass with a clean transition from bass to squawker? Absolutely.

Are they smoother with better Highs and all round cleaner sounding? You guessed it - yes.

And finally: Do they still sound like Khorns? Yes, only better. Everything that attracted me to Klipsch some thirty years ago is still there.

Unfortunately, my 89's came with AK-2 networks. I believe this was a sub standard network compared to some of the older ones, so why not upgrade. Heck, Klipsch has upgraded the x overs a number of times. They've changed the mid horn and even the tweeter. They've even changed the wiring from lamp chord to Monster! It's called evolution, and certainly in the AK2 case, it was not a move forward!

When Klipsch makes changes it's called Progression and keeping the product fresh. If I do it it's called modification - And that's WRONG? No way. I don't have to limit myself to a product price point, or any of the other constraints manufacturers have to contend with. Hey, every mod has revealed some new nuance in the music performances that keeps my favorite bands fresh sounding.

I not only consider myself a Klipsch owner, but also an ALK and BEC owner all rolled into one product. I consider all three to be worthy companies and individuals that have shown great dedication to the Klipsch platform and to the improvement of audio reproduction. I'm proud to have all three represented in my listening pleasure. (We just need to get Al to come up with a catchy logo)

Aside: I've modified Dyna, Hafler, ARC, and Cary products in the past and no one questions whether they are still true to their original designer. And if you've ever rolled a tube or a capacitor, is that amp still worthy of the name on the face plate?

Long live Klipsch Heritage and Thank You PWK for designing a platform that makes it so easy tweak.

[djk]

People that have steering wheel spinner knobs or padded steering wheel covers should be put to death (or forced to listen to Delco/Bose)!