SilverSport Posted March 26, 2006 Share Posted March 26, 2006 ...at the risk of starting a war here (but it is good to have spirited debate...)...what am I hearing with Tubes and my K'Horns??? I have been pretty happy with my Nakamichi STASIS but I HAD to have McIntosh...I started out easy and bought a MAC1900 receiver (upgraded by member DeWickt)...then moved up to a MA6200(checked and upgraded by AudioClassics-Rowe Photo under "warranty")...all SS...reading here about "all that you're missing without tubes..." I purchased Daddy Dee's (Dr. Bill's before that...) Eico HF81..."little" integrated...from 1959...all original except for the tubes (original rectifiers?) I am hearing sweet sounds from the K'Horns...I cannot say if it is "better'" than my McIntosh but it is very sweet...I keep saying syrupy sweet but that's what comes to mind (all adjectives aside) what am I hearing??? 14wpc of tubes can get louder in my home than I can take and this sounds sweet...can anyone explain what the deal is here?...Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted March 26, 2006 Share Posted March 26, 2006 Your listening to the classic vintage tube sound. Not all that accurate but you can listen all day without fatigue. Your also hearing sound stage and a kind layering of the presentation that IMHO only tubes can provide. The sound just doesn't seem to come directly from the speakers!! Craig Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcmusic Posted March 26, 2006 Share Posted March 26, 2006 Yes, I agree with Craig on where the sound seams to be coming from. I grabed a little scott 299 a few weeks ago and the sound is really sweet from the big horns. It sounds like it is coming from in between the speakers instead of out of them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JJkizak Posted March 26, 2006 Share Posted March 26, 2006 Silky smooth is not my forte. It's not that way when it's recorded. It's not that way at the joint where they are playing. It is loud. It is clean. It does vibrate your ribs. It does vibrate the walls. That's why I bought the K-horns. If you want silky smooth buy an old FM table radio or an Admiral console. JJK Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted March 26, 2006 Share Posted March 26, 2006 Silky smooth is not my forte. It's not that way when it's recorded. It's not that way at the joint where they are playing. It is loud. It is clean. It does vibrate your ribs. It does vibrate the walls. That's why I bought the K-horns. If you want silky smooth buy an old FM table radio or an Admiral console. JJK Well the answer is simple don't buy vintage tube integrated amps. I personally like it both ways! You can have the sound field and imaging of tubes with the accuracy and slam of SS you just have to move up the ladder to tube separates with plenty of headroom. Craig Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
easyeyes Posted March 26, 2006 Share Posted March 26, 2006 My introduction to tubes was with a rebuilt 299C, the sound and sound stage was completely different from the SS that I was running. The music sounded like it was coming from the walls behind the speaker, almost like I had a center channel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leok Posted March 26, 2006 Share Posted March 26, 2006 silversport, Transistors are exponential devices. They produce some very unpleasant distortion products that are minimized using feedback. Feedback has a few problems of its own and is also least effective at low output power. What you are noticing using the HF-81 is that your KHorns operate at low power (where transistor amps tend to be their worst). On the other hand, tubes tend to be more linear (triodes more linear than tetrodes or pentodes) and the distortion they do generate tends to be less irritating. Tube amps also produce their lowest distortion at low power. With efficient speakers like the KHorn, low distortion at low power is the key to a more natural sound. Transistor and digital (pwm) amps can be found that rival the good sound of tubes, but one has to be very selective. Leo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allan Songer Posted March 26, 2006 Share Posted March 26, 2006 Silky smooth is not my forte. It's not that way when it's recorded. It's not that way at the joint where they are playing. It is loud. It is clean. It does vibrate your ribs. It does vibrate the walls. That's why I bought the K-horns. If you want silky smooth buy an old FM table radio or an Admiral console. JJK What a condescending bit of nonsense!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SilverSport Posted March 26, 2006 Author Share Posted March 26, 2006 I should preface every comment I make with I am not an audiophile so if I use words that resemble an audiophile it is merely coincidental... I NEVER meant that smooth should mean no POP or power behind anything I am hearing...some transitions are smoother to my ear than with SS...that's all...depending on recordings (and this makes a BIG difference in my opinion) womens voices...jazzy or bluesy music sounds sweet (my word) the bass is nice and authoritative and yes, different to my ear than the same songs played on the same speakers with the same interconnects and the same CD player...the "soundstage" as you say is different and may be for a variety of several things many of you said...you know more than me...I just know it sounds good... On one CD the sound of electric piano sounded more in the background than I was used to (Cold Play) but on others (Diana Krall) it sounded at LEAST as nice where the bass SEEMED to go lower with the tubes...I do not have boutique tubes, I am using cheap interconnects and a $50 DVD player and the Eico is original and perhaps as Craig says leaking and whatnot...but still it sounds NICE... I am not here to slam SS (still have it) or say Tubes are the be-all-end-all...just that it sounds "nice" and I like it...and it was the cheapest amplifier I have bought since 1979 and sounds as well as any of them...YMMV. ...Oh and by the way...if you think my K'Horns are not vibrating my ribs or the walls, well you would be mistaken...and I am not listening to anything quiet!... Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted March 26, 2006 Share Posted March 26, 2006 Silky smooth is not my forte. It's not that way when it's recorded. It's not that way at the joint where they are playing. It is loud. It is clean. It does vibrate your ribs. It does vibrate the walls. That's why I bought the K-horns. If you want silky smooth buy an old FM table radio or an Admiral console. JJK What a condescending bit of nonsense!!! LMAO!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daddy Dee Posted March 26, 2006 Share Posted March 26, 2006 excellent thread. Just this afternoon I was thinking, wow, what is it about tube sound? It is hard to describe, but I appreciate folks making the effort here. "sweet" is a word that comes to my mind, too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcmusic Posted March 26, 2006 Share Posted March 26, 2006 Sweet is nice, how about soothing? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Audible Nectar Posted March 26, 2006 Share Posted March 26, 2006 NATURAL. Glad to hear you are enjoying the smooth, sweet sounds of the Eico. Maybe it's not as "textbook accurate" as you are used to, but the smooth sounds are very pleasing.....the "opposite pole" from solid state. The VRD/BB kit you have on the way will be that perfect balance of tube smooth/clear with the slam and detail you are accustomed to with SS. So it sounds like you'll have lots on the "electronics" menu to choose from if you get bored or just want a change. And as they say, variety IS the spice of life.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SilverSport Posted March 26, 2006 Author Share Posted March 26, 2006 Hey thanks...some of what you say rings true with me as well...and just for the record...I am not complaining one bit about the Eico...Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SilverSport Posted March 26, 2006 Author Share Posted March 26, 2006 Alright...found the culprit for the weak piano by Cold Play...seems some dummy (me) STILL isn't used to his new Tube Gear yet...you see, Eico had some quirkiness to their labeling and since this was an early Stereo Integrated Amplifier some things are different (for me at least)...The Eico HF-81 uses two monaural amplifiers at 14wpc to give you Stereophonics...on both the Bass and Treble dials...there are separate knobs on the same axis...one each for "amplifier 1" and "amplifier 2"...they also call volume "Level" and balance "Focus." Here's where operator error came in...the treble dials (for amp 1 and amp 2) are also the power knob...when I turned the knob on today I set all the pre-amp knobs save one (treble for amp 2...you guessed it, that's where the piano is coming from) The little marker lines are worn off on the inside knobs so I didn't see it since I am working around the house and using music in the background...while playing a couple more CDs, I noticed that the sound wasn't as nice as the last 2 days...took a closer look and...SHAZAM (said Billy Barty)...the sound and detail were back...sorry for the confusion...time for me to sit in the corner with my dunce cap on...AGAIN! Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pauln Posted March 26, 2006 Share Posted March 26, 2006 A lot of what you are hearing is what you are NOT hearing - the mid haze and high white noise caused by the over use of feedback in SS to get the distortion measures down. The SS feedback system adds lots of high disonant overtones that are not harmonically related to the signal frequencies - causes what sounds like hashy white noise in the sound stage. Getting rid of this changes the sound stage to a more natural dimension. The SSfeedback also does not work properly because of the crossovers fooling it into trying to correct the wrong frequencies. You are hearing the clarity and realism potential of tubes. You are hearing much less of the kind of distortion that sounds bad. You are hearing an amp that may have more usable headroom for peaks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike stehr Posted March 26, 2006 Share Posted March 26, 2006 "If you want silky smooth buy an old FM table radio or an Admiral console" I have a stock Admiral 6BQ5 push-pull console amplifier. It's more ragged, with a hint of sibilated shrill..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Audio Flynn Posted March 26, 2006 Share Posted March 26, 2006 Between the speakers "IS THE SOUNDSTAGE". When you hear it as a revelation you are heading in the right direction. EICO preamp sections are nice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SilverSport Posted March 26, 2006 Author Share Posted March 26, 2006 ...didja ever go out on a limb...albeit a somewhat inexpensive one and find that what you went out on a limb for FAR exceeds why you went out on that limb...? This Eico FAR exceeds what I thought I might get...nice sound but this is REAL nice sound...sing to me some more Ms. Krall...Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Audio Flynn Posted March 26, 2006 Share Posted March 26, 2006 Silky smooth is not my forte. It's not that way when it's recorded. It's not that way at the joint where they are playing. It is loud. It is clean. It does vibrate your ribs. It does vibrate the walls. That's why I bought the K-horns. If you want silky smooth buy an old FM table radio or an Admiral console. JJK What a condescending bit of nonsense!!! LMAO!! Amplification choices do separate the objectives of the each of us. HT multichannel SS does have a physiological effect on ones body. Others prefer the realism of the music. Shaking walls has never been an objective of mine...and my wife thinks I am a head banger. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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