Peer pressure - Altec and Klipsch

[TommyK]

Fellow Audiophools:

I have a beautiful pair of '76 Belles with ALK universal x-overs. I currently power them with a new Mc 275 and C2200 preamp. I find vocals and spartan combos to be just what I want. If I have a complaint, it is when the music gets complicated, say for example playing some of the orchestra heavy cuts from the Les Miserables 10th anniversary CD. Jerry Garcia can sound like he is in the same room when he is solo, but a hot and heavy Other One has sounded better on other speakers.

Over the past few years a friend has persistently urged me to try a side-by-side with a pair of Altec Valencias or 19s. I have low-bid over the years on local ebay sales to see if I could scare up a pair, but with no luck.

My question is to any that have both, am I just chasing my tail? or is it worth the marital grief of shlepping in Altecs to do a side by side?

Thanks in advance for your input.

TommyK, NJ

[sheltie dave]

The Valencias (I think) are slightly better than Cornwalls, but neither the 19s nor the Valencias will best the Belles.

The 511 midhorn will not honk as much as the Belle mid/tweet combo, and seems to provide a wider dispersion pattern that seems less congested/more open. It is also rolled off as you get around 17 to 18K, and it does not provide the extended clarity the Klipsch three way throws out.

The Klipsch bass bin, Altec or ALK mid horn, and Beyma, JBL 2404 or Eminence/BEC tweet is a common custom ride over in the Mods and Updates section.

[cjgeraci]

Master Dave provides an accurate report. Then again, he has owned both Belles and various Altecs.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />

Tommy, I have modded Belles up front (ALKs and Trachorns) and modded Valencias (new crossovers and converted to 3-way) in the rear and have lots 'o experience listening to both speakers before and after mods. My Valencias run 811 horns, and yes, both those horns (and the 511s) sound less congested and more airy than the K500 horns the Belles run. That being said, however, the Altec two-ways never went as high as I desired. To my ears, stock Valencias vs. Belles with ALK crossovers = Belles win. Tighter bass, better top end for the Belles vs. better midrange for the Valencias.

Couple of things to think about. Yes, you can probably pick up a pair of Valencias rather inexpensively. They will have dried out caps that need refreshing - so that is more money there - just to get them up to stuff. Stock with old caps, they will sound good, but not nearly as detailed as you are used to. With old caps, they will have a kind of "veil" over the speakers and at times, can bark at you - even with the 811s. New crossovers cured all that.

Now, I have three-way Valencias in the rear with new crossovers vs. Belles with Trachorns and Eminence (Bob's tweeter) in the front. While my Valencias are probably nicer than most people's mains (and I love them), they are no contest to my modded Belles. Tighter bass for the Belles, and to my ears, the Trachorn is a superior horn with complicated music - and at high volumes. The 811 horn is good for both - just that the Trachorn is better to me. That plus you already have the ALK Universal, which is far superior to anything in the Altecs.

If you can do it, suck it up - and get the Trachorns for your Belles. You will not be sorry.

Carl.

[colterphoto1]

no matter what the pundits say, I think it would be an interesting match-up and worth the effort if nothing else but to settle the neighborhood 'who's on top' and to generate converastion.

Chances are that there might be a favorite depending on your source material or each listener might prefer his own, because that's the sound he's used to.

Let us know how it comes out.

Michael

[TommyK]

Everyone, thanks for the thoughts.

Carl, I have been tempted by Al's Trachorns. Cost isn't as much an issue as time. I have a new rug rat to go along with the pair I already had and now seems like there is no time in the evening for audio projects.

What is the real world time investment to install Al's trachorns?

I am also thinking of trying Bob's tweets - but I have never disliked the t-35. Then again, I won't know until I try.

Peace,

TommyK

[joshnich]

I would echo what has been said about the ALK Trachorn. Definately opened up the midrange in regards to congestion and ability to handle complicated multi instrument passages and material. A very worthwhile investment. In regards to the actual time to do, if my memory serves me, I would say no more than a couple of hours its a real plug and play upgrade.

Josh

[cjgeraci]

Tommy:

Congrats on the new rug rat. With respect to real world time, two hours at the max. I recall that it took me about 1.5 - 1.8 hours to put in both Trachorns, and I was taking my time - listening to some tunes on the rears and sipping a brew or two. Additionally, I am just not that handy with a screwdriver so it may take you less time.

The construction of the Belles (and Al's kit) makes it easy. As some know, the Belle's bass bin is separate from the entire top portion, which consists of the grill, top, sides, and a separate bottom. Its just a matter of removing the top assembly, putting new longer bolts in the second bottom, and reattaching the new top unit (with new grill, Trachorns already bolted to the grill, and spacers underneath the sides). Also, you simply screw in your K-77 to the new front grill, and attaching the K-55 is a matter of unscrewing it from the old horn and reattaching it with the Trachorn. Al provides detailed instructions and photos, and mechanical ability is not really necessary.

Also, if you decide to go with the Trachorns, you have the option of sticking with the K-77s, going with Bob's version of the Eminence (same shape as the K-77) or going with the baby cheeks version of the Eminence driver (APT-200), which is also available aftermarket. Or for that matter, baby cheeks versions of the JBL's tweeter or Beyma (which I run with the Valencias). I went with the APT-200 for my main Belles because I liked the dispersion characteristics better than the K-77 shape (and better driver). I run Bob's tweeter, the CT125, in my center Belle. If you go the Trachorn route, Al will ask you whether you want it set up for K-77s or Beymas (also baby cheeks). Even if you decide to go K-77s initially, it is just a fiber plate with a cutout for the K-77, which is easily modified later for the baby cheeks horns (I started out with K-77s and Trachorns and moved to baby cheeks later).

Carl.

[cjgeraci]

By the way, just for the record, do not misconstrue my comments as being derogatory at all towards Altecs. After all, Altecs occupy the rears in my system, and I lived and loved them in their original condition for quite some time. I could also live with them as two-ways quite nicely if they were not part of the rest of this system. In fact, if I ever add K-horns to the main system, the Belles will move to the rear, and the Altecs will be mains in another room. They may (or may not) go back to being 2-ways at that point.

Converting them to three-ways, however, makes them sound more Klipsch-like.

Carl.

[KCM]

The Valencias (I think) are slightly better than Cornwalls, but neither the 19s nor the Valencias will best the Belles.

The 511 midhorn will not honk as much as the Belle mid/tweet combo, and seems to provide a wider dispersion pattern that seems less congested/more open. It is also rolled off as you get around 17 to 18K, and it does not provide the extended clarity the Klipsch three way throws out.

The Klipsch bass bin, Altec or ALK mid horn, and Beyma, JBL 2404 or Eminence/BEC tweet is a common custom ride over in the Mods and Updates section.

Ummmmm, yeah. You can replace two thirds of your Belles and then they'll be OK. Get a pair of 19's, you'll never look back. I say this after owning and modifying Cornwall's and La Scala's, as well as spending lots of time listening to Khorns. Don't get me wrong, I like Klipsch Heritage but the 19's are a clear step up.

[jacksonbart]

Johnny here is my advise regarding peer pressure; keep it in your pants, don't smoke, don't drink and go to bed early every night.

[sheltie dave]

KCM, I think you misconstrued what I wrote, so I'll make it easy. The Altec mid lens has less compromises than the Belle midhorn lens. The Klipsch K55 driver is better. The JBL baby cheeks tweeter is a superior product. The Trachorn is a superior lens. While I have yet to do transplants myself, I thoroughly enjoy reading(and hearing) about documented and solid ways to improve our vintage speakers, and recognize solid improvements can be made.

The Belle is aesthetically and audibly superior to the Altec 19, and this is reflected both in the marketplace - EBay prices, product life cycle, and factory production output - and in my basement, where Belles best Valencias, and Valencias routinely best VOTTs, and Model 19s when they visited.

Model 19s always struck me as being a little bit lumpy in the low end. I'm a big Altec fan to go along with my Klipsch jones, and I currently have more sets of large Altec than Klipsch. They do make very good backups.

PS...no need to try a Klipsch smackdown on a Klipsch site.

[Travis In Austin]

Johnny here is my advise regarding peer pressure; keep it in your pants, don't smoke, don't drink and go to bed early every night.

I second what JB, but I would add: If you are not in bed by 11, come home.

Travis

[cjgeraci]

Calm down, Dave. KCM started out with Cornwalls, then went to LaScalas, and then to 19s. According to him, each step was a huge leap forward. So..... credibility is a bit of an issue - especially on a KIipsch forum.

I don't think he can provide a comparison to Valencias because I do not think he has heard them. Pity. I also prefer Valencias and VOTTs to 19s.

Additionally, KCM references mods to Belles (probably talking about mine), but he fails to mention that he spent almost half a grand on his 2-way crossovers - just for parts. Next, he will contend that his 19s blow away my modded Belles.

Even without the Trachorns and Eminence mods, I would still take my stock Belles over 19s. Of course, since he has his new crossovers, I get to keep my ALKs in the battle.[]

There are enough Model 19 owners who have added tweeters or supertweeters. And yes, even with the Tangerine plugs. So, you can figure that as another needed mod with the 19s.

Of course different people hear things differently. For example, Dylanl kept Khorns and 19s and ditched his Belles. I do not think he ever heard them with decent crossovers, however.

Carl.

P.S. Then again, Tommy, maybe you should sink a grand or $1500 into rebuilt 19s just to hear them side by side with your Belles. For science sake. You could always keep both pairs.

[sheltie dave]

Sorry, Carl. The offhand comment about needing upgrades to bring Belles to the point where they can (finally) better Altecs isn't exactly in the ball park. As I said earlier, the 19s are lumpy in the bass, and the crossover at 1200 Hz leaves the woof huffing and puffing. Many Altec affics add the tweet to strengthen the top end, and get a rodded crossover to boot.

The commercial VOTTs always need structural strengthening to stop the plywood from breathing, the Magnificants to a lesser degree. The Valencias we already have covered in depth, and what the heck, we already have three sets combined. I think your set is probably the best sounding pair in Missouri.[]

[3dzapper]

.

[cjgeraci]

I think your set is probably the best sounding pair in Missouri.

---

Appreciate the props about my Valencias. I just finished hooking up the extra set of Al's attentuators on the Altecs (for the Beymas), and listened to some classical and some Rush "Moving Pictures." I have the perfect front and rear blend going with the big horns tonight, and all is right with the world.

For those who have not tried them, a set of Al Klappenberger's tweeter attentuators is a great, inexpensive mod that really allows you to customize your speakers to suit your musical tastes, moods and volume. All on the fly by simply moving a little plug. From now on, I will never run without them, front or rear. Another great idea, Al. [H]

Carl.

[Dylanl]

Since I was mentioned I think I should respond. <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />

"Of course different people hear things differently. For example, Dylanl kept Khorns and 19s and ditched his Belles. I do not think he ever heard them with decent crossovers, however.'

These claims are true. I did ditch the Belles, but it was based on sonics. For some reason I have a hard time with harsh and brittle tones. The heritage lineup has this inherent problem. The Belle horn was no exception. Looking into hundreds of past posts ringing is a known fact in the midrange. I have covered all of the Klipch speakers I have owned with some sort of caulk to help. I have never attempted this with the 811 and would not ( no need ). The Belle also does not extend very low in the bass column which I am not a fan of. Then the comparison has to be made between bass reflex and folded horn bass. I like both and that is a toss up for me. But to say that the 19 has sloppy or boomy bass is way off the mark.

So to sum things up from my perspective, stock to stock I would always take the 19's over the Belles, period. Once you start modifying then why discuss it's just not fair is it?

[cjgeraci]

I am glad that you chimed in Dylanl since you could provide an opposite viewpoint on the subject.

So to sum things up from my perspective, stock to stock I would always take the 19's over the Belles, period. Once you start modifying then why discuss it's just not fair is it?<?XML:NAMESPACE PREFIX = O />

No, it would not be fair, but then again, Tommy's starting proposition is not talking about stock v. stock. Tommy's proposition still includes some mods, those of ALK crossovers with his Belles. Others are telling him to pick up a stock pair of Altecs - and the stock Altecs would "win" against those particular modded Belles. In my experience, Al's ALKs do wonders for the stock Belle K501 midhorn, between the attentuation options, the constant impedence, and the steeper slope than offered by stock Klipsch networks. While a stock 811 Altec horn is still superior to a K501 horn (w/ALKs), at least the ALKs remove most of the harsh and brittle tones (and ringing) of the 501 - except at some extreme volumes (which is why I went to Trachorns - I am a volume junkie part of the time). Belles with ALKs is a much nicer battle with stock 19s, and to my ears, I preferred the overall sound of the Belles under those circumstances.

If you prefer the sound of stock 19s versus Belles with aftermarket crossovers, then I can respect that opinion.

Carl.

P.S. Of course, it would not be fair to compare my fully modded Belles to any stock Altecs. Those comments were more for hyperbole.......etc.

[Cut-Throat]

Since I was mentioned I think I should respond.

But to say that the 19 has sloppy or boomy bass is way off the mark.

So to sum things up from my perspective, stock to stock I would always take the 19's over the Belles, period. Once you start modifying then why discuss it's just not fair is it?

Not for me. I owned Belles and I prefered them over the Model 19's. And to me, I thought the 19's had too boomy bass. With that said, I eventually replaced the midrange of the Belles with the Altec 805B horn. And then I went to Khorns with the 1005B Altec horn and 288-16K driver.

I'd give the edge to Altec for the Midrange, But I'll take the Belles Bass and Khorn Bass anytime over the Altec 19's - Much cleaner!

[Dylanl]

I agree Altec mid range is better. That is why so many here have made the modification. <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />

I am modifying my K-horns with 511s now.

I still think it's hard to compare bass reflex to horn loaded bass. It's personal preference. I find it boomy at times. My 19's have such tight bass its scary not boomy at all. Are you sure your room was not making the difference??

I have heard 19's in two different 3 different areas ( rooms ) with 3 different results. My basement for example does have boomy bass in the 50Hz range. Upstairs is much better. And the 3rd what I would call a dead room was the best. 19's need some room to breath and the horn dispersion is much different.

If I ever come to one of the Klipsch gatherings I would love to hear a side by side with the 19s, Belles & Khorns. I think I would find a few converts or maybe a few scratching their heads.[]