Rebuild AA's or Upgrade?

[tidmack]

I've purchased most of my Klipsch used. Specifically with the Heritage line, I've read a lot about the sonic improvement with rebuilding/upgrading older networks. I thought about having the AA networks in my LaScalas rebuilt a few years ago, but held off because I sold a spare pair of Cornwalls that would have been used while the networks were being serviced. I recently bought another pair of LaScalas and want to get the ball rolling on a rebuild or possible upgrade while I have two pairs of speakers.

Although I can only compare AA to AL networks, I've found that I really like the sound of the AA's. IMO, they're warmer than the AL's and seem to allow for punchier bass. Again though, that's comparing two 20+ year old networks, I'm not sure if what I'm hearing is what I'm supposed to be hearing.

Is there a concise comparison available for the different networks so I can spend my money as wisely as possible? My gut is telling me to simply have my AA's rebuilt and see if I like them as is. But, in comparison to AA's, what will Al K. or Dean's networks offer? Accuracy, better extension? As always, thanks for your input.

Jeff

[mark1101]

It sounds like the minimum is a rebuild of the stock nets.....at 20+ years old.

That will bring them back to the original stock factory sound. They will sound good, but will be no comparison to the other networks you mention.

The aftermarket networks basically improve openess, imaging, and clarity to varying degrees based on price (good, better, best type of thing). They also present a stable impedance to your amp. They are built with audiophile components, and updated filter designs and you can expect much better sound.

The older stock Heritage Klipsch speakers can sound good, but they can also sound much better. It's all in your wallet.

[Guest " "]

You already favor gentle slope xovers such as the AA, so no point talking about extreme slope networks.

A refresh using exact same parts values is commonly done if the xovers are old, and if we are talking AA's or AL's, they're old. Their are varying degrees of quality levels for capacitors at significant increases in costs.

Beyond a refresh is some mild tweaking. Adding a swamping resistor to the amp side of the autoformer for example helps keep the apparent impedance constant with tap changes. Some folks put p-traps inline with the autoformer and squawker. This is done to reduce a glitch that some k-55's exhibit at the uppermost edges of their operating range in a gentleslope network.

Inductors are another point of intrest. The defualt is iron core, alternatives are air core, and even air core with multiple strands of wire.

As you start to plan a refresh/upgrade/tweak path, some consideration should be given to third party providers of drop in replacements. The providers get price breaks on large volume purchases for parts, do significant desing work, and quality assurance testing.

Deciding which route is best for you is mainly one of how much time you personally want to invest into this process.

[PrestonTom]

My perspective is a bit different. I replaced the caps on my AAs for Klipschorns. They were about 25 years old. I replaced them with Solens of the same spec and it cost me about $12 per side. In all fairness I am naturally skeptical of the benefits of "fancy" caps, but you can spend considerably more if you want to. Enough said...

This is a simple soldering job and I would encourage you to also take the time to clean all the other surfaces on the terminal strip, connectors etc. This is a good time for that

If your experience is similar to mine, then you will notice an improvement. The highs will have a bit more energy. While the improvement is noticeable it is not dramatic. When reading comments by others you will get the impression that the sound across the entire spectrum will be dramatically improved: "opened up", "revealed" improved sound stage, more detailed, better bass (which you are not altering BTW) etc. This was not my experience and I can't imagine why swapping a capacitor with a bit less DCR would do all that (maybe some were in worse shape to begin with)

However, given the cost, you should definitely go for it, but your expectations should be kept in check. This is not an invitation to argue, it is simply my own experience.

If, however you are interested in changing the topology (which you may want to if you have an AL) then there will be more substantial differences in the sound. This would also be expected ...

Good luck,

-Tom

[JohnA]

What year are your are your speakers?

Dean's Super AA is a variation on the Type AA that should sound a bit

better for little extra cost. I'd recommend them, especially if

you have spring terminal K-55-Vs. The simple filter change on the

squawker section won't cut a 9k bounce as well as a P-trap would, if

you have it, but it is better than nothing.

[tidmack]

John,

You bring up an excellent point. I have a pair of 84's with non Alnico K-55s (I always forget is that is the M or V version) and whichever tweeter was stock in '84. . .the non Alnico K-77 I believe. I swapped the stock AL networks for AAs that haven't been rebuilt.

My other pair are bone stock '79's. They have Alnico K-55s (with spring terminals), Alnico k-77s, and original AAs.

I enjoy the sound of the '79's a LOT more than the '84's. The '79's sound much more smooth to me and not nearly as harsh in the upper frequencies. Oddly, the bass also seems punchier on the '79's. I'm not a measurement guy, so I'm only able to tell you what I "think" I hear. Don't get me wrong, both pairs sound very similar, but my observations come from a weekend of A/Bing both pairs. Do my observations change anyone's recommendation? I appreciate the input so far, this is the kind of feedback I was hoping for. If anyone has a specific recommendation that you'd rather email, don't hesitate to email me either. My yahoo account with a Klipsch specific subject works well: tidmack@yahoo.com.

Thanks

Jeff

[Hardhead]

It isn't surprising that your 1984's sound harsh in the upper frequencies compared to the 1979's. The AA network you put into the 1984's wasn't designed for the non-Alnico K-55-V or K77-M combination in there, which is 2-3 dB louder than the Alnico K-55-V and K-77 combination. Consequently, the mid and upper range is too loud and sounds "harsh."

If you don't believe that's the problem, install the midranges and tweeters of the 1979's into the 1984's with the Type "AA" crossover and tell us what you think you hear.

[J.4knee]

My recommendation is get some ALK's and don't look back! To me the sound is super smooth and effortless to listen to. Great detail, the harshness of the AL's will be gone forever. I've been using them for a couple years now and that is the one mod I will never undo.

[mark1101]

FWIW I agree. If you are looking for performance.....a lot of money can be saved if you go directly to the aftermarket networks.

[BEC]

Jeff,

I would rebuild the AAs and replace the AL with any other crossover that is for the La Scala. I doubt that even Klipsch would defend the AL. It is a mess.

Your experience with replacing the AL with the old original AA really did not tell you anything. The 27 year old (at least) caps in the AAs are bad.

Bob Crites

[tidmack]

Thanks for the replies fellas. When I replaced the AL's in the '84's with the AA's, I did notice an improvement. But, I don't doubt that the harshness I'm hearing is because I put AA's in with K 55 and K 77 M's. Oddly though, when I did that swap 3-4 years ago, I asked around here first. I remember quite a few telling me that there is little difference between the M and V versions of the K 55 and K77 and that swapping from the AL to the AA would do the trick. Is there anything I can have doneto my AA's in the '84s to make those speakers sound like the '79s? I guess I could always try to find Alnico tweeters?

For the '79s, I'm leaning toward just having the AA's rebuilt. Has anyone been able to hear AA's, Dean's, and Al's networks? If so, is there a simple way to distinguish between them all? I guess what I'm asking is what's the difference between them all? Thanks again for all the help.

Jeff

[mark1101]

Jeff,

You're asking a loaded question that has a subjective answer. I'll let you know my experiences with this network business so far.

I'll start by saying that in the last 2 years I have spent almost $2,500 on networks and various caps to experiment with. Much of it wasted had I gone directly to what sounds best.

Before I ever purchased any aftermarket networks, I had BEC rebuild ALL my Klipsch networks to stock spec. Bob did a nice job! That includes, A/AA, AL-3, B, E, and I have rebuilt my AK-3s myself. This led to an improvement over the tired old originals. The older the networks, the bigger the improvement in top end sound I found. But.............

Then, I purchased ALK Jrs. (LaScalas) and after that extreme slopes (which just arrived tonight in fact and I haven't connected them yet) (Khorns).

The ALK Jrs. built with the right components turned out to be FAR BETTER than any of the above mentioned Klipsch stock networks. When I rebuilt my AK-3s, I did it 3 times until I had all Auricaps in there. They still can not hold a candle to the ALK Jrs. A complete waste of money. I could have almost had another set of ALKs with what I spent. A learning experience to be sure.

I have heard the ALK universals and they are definitely better than the Jrs. I have also heard the ES nets, and that's why I skipped over the universals and went right for the best for the Khorns.

It's just my opinion but the aftermarket networks require high end capacitors to really excel. You can do budget versions, but I do not recommend that. I had 3 different versions of the ALK Jrs. each with better parts until I stuck with the ones I have now. They are excellent and are in my LaScalas.

There has been nothing I could do to this point to make my Khorns sound as good as my LaScalas, the Khorns having the AK-3s in them. Usually, I always listen to the Khorns. But when I turn on the LaScalas it almost makes me sick to think of all the money I spent and the Ks don't sound as good. Once I install the ES nets into the Ks, if all is well things will fall into place as they should.

My point is that if you have the budget and really want the best sound, go for the aftermarket networks. If you are looking for original factory sound get the stock nets rebuilt.

[Deang]

Usually, I always listen to the Khorns. But when I turn on the LaScalas it almost makes me sick to think of all the money I spent and the Ks don't sound as good.

You warm my heart Mark. Thank you.

[khorn#1]

Mark,

I'll be very curious to know your impressions of the es-networks once they are installed, I'm next in line to receive ALK es-networks myself for my 2004 khorns. Like I have commented before, I have never heard any of Al's networks, I ordered strictly on the comments I've read on this forum which I value very much and also Al's reputation as a network filter designer. I can't wait to receive mine and install them but, until then, I'll look forward to your first impressions. Keep us posted.

Randy

[Daddy Dee]

Mark,

You've gotten some good advice from Mark who has lots of experience with these rascals.

In my crossover changes, one thing that really impressed me was knowing what my speakers sounded like when they left the factory. It doesn't cost much to refresh the caps to factory spec, which, to my ears, is pretty darn good.

I'm happy for folks who are happy with whatever crossovers they use and like. In my experience, having the factory spec sound as a reference gave me something to put all crossovers in perspective. I'm just funny that way...

[colterphoto1]

I went from the stock AL's in my LS to BEC's AA's.

I will always wonder what I'm missing by not changing to a more modern type such as the AL3.

Can anyone help who has compared these two?

My 55's are M's. I think I have the wrong networks. Also when I hooked them up, wiring them carefully just as my last ones were, my Yamaha receiver's YPAO suddenly declared them out of phase with the rest of the system? I've never understood why that was so.

There was a marked improvement in clarity, but now I wonder if that was just a mid/high boost. Have I done the best I can for my LS?

Michael

[Al Klappenberger]

Guys,

FedEx just delivered a set of my AP12-350 + ES5800 networks to Mark. They were done special for him using his belovid Auricaps throuout. Let see how he likes them. To my ears the ES5800 extreme-slope removed a smearing that I was living with for years. With normal gradual slope netwroks you hear everything first from the tweeter and then again from the squawker. With the ES networks you hear each sound only once. I think others will hear that difference too. I heard it and I have a tin ear. Tha't the main reason I realy so heavily on instrument measurements and usualy keep my mouth shut when asked how something "sounds"!

Al K.

[markgod]

I will give you a laymans perspective . I had a pair of Lascala speakers with Bob Crites crossovers than can be switched from "AA" to "A" . Then I bought a pair of 1975 k-horns with the original AA's in them. I was dissapointed at first listening to the k-horns. Then I pulled out the Crites crossovers and put them in the K-horns,experimented with switching them back and forth from AA to A . My conclusion was I preferred the A crossover setting . I then searched the forum for crossover info. ,I read a post by Dean Wescott and found out that he had similiar tastes in crossovers . I called Dean and after talking to him and confirming that we had similiar conclusions reguarding crossovers ,I told him the size of my room my listening habits etc.... He recommended a Auricap modified Type A crossover and for me in my situation it proved to be the best sounding yet. I have not personaly heard the ALK networks. If you are up for it ,it could be worth your time to talk to Dean about your particular settings ,it was worth it for me.

[Al Klappenberger]

Mark,

Your conclusion about the A versus the AA is right on in my book. The AA is simply an A with a knee-jerk reaction fix to the tweeter filter by PWK to keep from having to replace blown tweeters! It's a poorly designed filter. It was done by thoroughly outmoded "constant K" methods. That method yields and symmetrical filter with a bad response. That method was developed in 1920 by Zobel (Yes THAT same guy). It's for filters that operate between equal impedaances (like 8 ohms in AND out). A power amp is a voltage source (like 0.2 Ohns) and requires a "singley terminated" filter that is NOT symmetrical. The output cap should be much larger in value than the input cap. The AA tweeter filter has 2 uF on both the input AND output cap. WRONG! To make matters worse, it's not even an 8 ohm filter!

Al K.

[tidmack]

I really appreciate everyone's thoughts, they've helped a ton.

Two conclusions: I think I'm going to have the AA's in my '79's rebuilt, so I can get a baseline. My gut is telling me that I may be happy with just a rebuild, since I already like the sound of these speakers as is.

With my '84's though, I have the same dilemma Michael has: did we indeed make a mistake by putting AA's in speakers the K55 and K77 M drivers? If I like the sound of the AA's in my '79's, how can I get my M driven '84's to sound like the '79's?

Jeff