Erik Mandaville Posted November 24, 2006 Share Posted November 24, 2006 Al: "1-SET amps have one tube and should be real cheap - they aren't. RIP OFF!" ....on second thought, I'm just going to leave this alone. Erik Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erik Mandaville Posted November 24, 2006 Share Posted November 24, 2006 Edwin: "Whilst the content is questionable, they are well written." If you wouldn't mind, please be very specific about what you are describing as 'questionable content,' and perhaps give those writers a chance to clarify. Thanks, Erik Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erik Mandaville Posted November 24, 2006 Share Posted November 24, 2006 Coytee: "however, are you saying that those two amps, even if bridged, will reproduce the kind of dynamics the Khorns "are capable of"? Me thinks the original statement is phrased such that the answer has to be no, is it not?" Sure, we are talking about the same amplifier -- or a bridged pair. What I was saying was that a good 1.5 watt amp (the DRD 45 is another) is for the vast majority of music listening completely capable of providing the amount of dynamic energy that is correct for the kind of music we mostly listen to, and within the space the speakers need to load. With a very large (in terms of horsepower), the Klipschorns are capable of filling some auditoriums with sound, but I/we don't live in such a place. In truth, one of the reasons I like Klipsch Heritage speakers as much as I do has to do with how natural and clear the sound at lower to moderate listening levels -- not all the speakers I have can do that, and only really wakeup, so to speak, at higher SPL levels. I've used higher power amplifiers for HT, since for us they are well suited to that. I've found many movie soundtracks to be more attentive to dynamic contrasts than music, but I think part of that is because the nature of environmental or incidental sounds (as in LF effects etc. in movies) are at least somewhat different from what we find in music. Sure, the Klipschorns are capable of more, as even the Heresies are; however, I would rather listen to music in a way that suits my listening tastes and preferences rather than as a means of simply (and to me, pointlessly) taking advantage of the very serious SPL potential of the Klipschorns. Erik Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erik Mandaville Posted November 24, 2006 Share Posted November 24, 2006 I see that Mark has mentioned the exact same characteristic I like about Heritage and their potential at lower volume levels. I absolutely agree. I have a friend who is a band director that also told me the same thing about La Scalas. Erik Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erik Mandaville Posted November 24, 2006 Share Posted November 24, 2006 Rigma: "I have and totally disagree, my 300B's are here to stay!" Single-ended 300Bs are outstanding, IMO. Erik Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jackpod Posted November 24, 2006 Share Posted November 24, 2006 What is wrong with having them all? I have McIntosh tube (MC240), I have moderate power McIntosh solid state (MC50, MC250, MC2100) and high power McIntosh solid state (MC7300). I also have a Dynaco ST70 (not even close to original except chassis and transformers and it still has EL34's) and I plan on buying a SET 300b. None of them are RIPOFFS, thay each have their place, they each have their strong points and their weak points. What kind of mood am I in today is what dictates which amplifier I use AND what type of music I listen to AND which speakers I listen to. Same with my vehicles, why do i have 5? again, what am i going to do, where am i going, what will i be hauling. I sure wouldn't want to take a several hour trip in my pickup (i'd get beat to death) but does that make it a ripoff? Am I going to take my bike in 5 foot of snow? that doesn't make it a ripoff. Opinions and experiences are what people here are looking for, but heavily biased opinions.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marvel Posted November 24, 2006 Share Posted November 24, 2006 Guys, Here's my chance to "mouth off": 1-SET amps have one tube and should be real cheap - they aren't. RIP OFF! 2-SET amps generally only have about 5 Watts. No head room at all! RIP OFF 3-SET amps operate class A and draw a lot of ideling current continuously making a lot of heat. That's why they are usually only 5 W or so - RIP OFF 4-SET amps depend on operation at low levels because a single tube goes non-linear as the levels increase - That's is, they are distortion generators when you turn the volume up a bit - RIP OFF. 5-SET amps usually don't have any negative feedback. This causes them to have high output impedance (poor damping factor) and are very sensitive to the inconsistant loads that Klipsch loudspeaker shows them. - RIP OFF In ll fairness, they do have one advantage that may be why people like them. At low levels they do not have the distortion that a poorly desinged SS amp will have becasue of such things a notch distortion. A good quality push-pull amp no matter if it's tube or SS will not have that problem. If you want a tube amp, get a good used push-pull one like a Marantz 8B or McIntosh MC275 and be prepaired to pay THOUSANDS! If you want a new one, Graig of NOSValves makes a good one. Al K. Didn't take your medicine today, huh? Starting at the bottom, it would be a ripoff to pay thousands for an 8B or MC275. Because the design is simple means they should cost way less? Perhaps, but the tubes used are usually not sold by the thousands, so the price of 'the' tube will be higher. The output irons may cost more for the same reason. Of course, they also actually have more than ONE tube. There is usually a driver stage in there too. I also don't think the tube prices are that high for my amps. Besides, I don't need four (or more) output tubes, only two. Might be a tradeoff there. Class A is just fine. My 2A3 amps generate very little heat, but the tubes just don't dissapate that much. The Dynaco ST-70, on the other hand, genrates a lot more heat. Of course, it operates on Class A past 10 watts, before switching to Class A-B, and those EL34 output tubes generate a lot of heat. Not a valid argument here. Just what is -"Turn them up a bit" supposed to mean? That is pretty unscientific isn't it? I can get far more than adequate levels fro my amps, and gosh, they still sound great. Not scientific either, but I am enjoying the music and not worrying about the technical side of things. The headroom issue for me is a non issue. I love mine, and that, for the most part is the whole point. I would have to study some amp topology a bit more, but you might want to explain why not having negative feedback causes a high output impedance. Again, my 2A3 amps drive my LaScalas just fine, with great bass too. Far louder than I care to listen to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erik Mandaville Posted November 24, 2006 Share Posted November 24, 2006 "5-SET amps usually don't have any negative feedback. This causes them to have high output impedance (poor damping factor) and are very sensitive to the inconsistant loads that Klipsch loudspeaker shows them. - RIP OFF" A little homework might be in order before such global statements come forth. The following is the picture of the inside of a single-ended amp, all 1.5 watts-worth in stereo. See the speaker outputs at the top center of the amp? Two of those yellow wires are the main output connections to the loudspeakers, and the other two are the right and left channel feedback leads. None of the tubes in this design are very expensive, although I do own several pair of DHTs that are much more costly. Erik Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ben. Posted November 24, 2006 Share Posted November 24, 2006 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erik Mandaville Posted November 24, 2006 Share Posted November 24, 2006 Output impedance of the above amplifier (interior view of Transcendent SE OTL) is 1 ohm. Erik Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coda Posted November 24, 2006 Share Posted November 24, 2006 Klipsch decided to highlight portions from the recent Stereophile La Scala II review on their product information page. There wasn't an amp he tried with the La Scala that he didn't like. A reprint of the review is also now available online. Reviews The La Scala II had an effortless, expansive, warm, generous sound - Sam Tellig, Stereophile [11/1/2006] These speakers could image! Maybe thats the last thing you expect from a big-box loudspeaker. The soundstage was spacious, the performers precisely placed. Their imaging was excellent side to side, front to back, up and down. - Sam Tellig, Stereophile [11/1/2006] The La Scala IIs real payoff is its high sensitivity. You dont have to pour money into heroic amplification. You can use a flea-watt amp, if you like. You could even use a headphone amp I did. - Sam Tellig, Stereophile [11/1/2006] The La Scala II really shone when it comes to dynamics macrodynamic swings in particular, but microdynamics too: those subtle, low-level dynamic shifts. The music got moving with these speakers, whether it was Gustav Mahler, a good classical piano recording, popular standards, or big-band jazz. Or heavy-metal rock, for that matter. - Sam Tellig, Stereophile [11/1/2006] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sheltie dave Posted November 24, 2006 Share Posted November 24, 2006 I think we still haven't answered the meat of George's question- what SET amp(s) will provide accurate tonal, timbre and pitch quality of congested accoustic music? The best I have heard are a set of Horus-based amps made by Erik, and a set of tricked out Moondogs a friend brought over a year ago. Among the push-pull high powered amps, Craig's VRDs operate in Class A well past loud, and still get tonal, timbre, and pitch right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbsl Posted November 24, 2006 Share Posted November 24, 2006 Marvel wrote: "Again, my 2A3 amps drive my LaScalas just fine, with great bass too. Far louder than I care to listen to. " I Sold Marvel his Moondogs and I had the same expereince! I used a Ground Grid tube preamp with the Moondogs and a Cayin TA 30 tube amp. The Moondogs could play louder than I normally listen. So in 2 1/2 years I have had the Cayin I have probably used the same amount of watts as when I had the Moondogs. In a larger living room the Cayin would be the better choice. I just got a pair of Fortes and they would sound incredible in my bedroom(12 x 12 x 8) with the Moondogs and the Ground Grid! So would a pair of VRDs or Pcats! So the fact a amp has more watts or more dynamic headroom does not make it a better amp. There was nothing missing from the sound of the Moondogs to my ears. Someone else would hear things differently that is fine. Al listed reasons why he thinks SET amps are rip offs and to him they are important reasons why he does not use SET amps. I disagree with him and everyone else who dislike SET amps. I would like to try a 300B SET amp in the future. I like both types of amps! Some people don't. If you are curious about SET then try them. Just make sure the amp you buy has a good reputation and resale value. That way if the SET amp does not work for you just sell it. I would still have the Moondogs but had to pay some bills. I'm really glad Marvel got them and is enjoying them so much! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edwinr Posted November 25, 2006 Share Posted November 25, 2006 double post Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edwinr Posted November 25, 2006 Share Posted November 25, 2006 You can't convince me that 1.5 watts is better than 50 quality watts. I have experienced a number of low powered SET based systems, and I have found them interesting. While I find these systems to be rather rose tinted in presentation and breathless, I have also found them to be enjoyable. Lets try an analogy. Compare the BBC LS 3/5a with the Klipsch La Scala - both in my loudspeaker top 10 list. Listening to the LS 3/5a in isolation you ask yourself "How can it get any better than this?" Well it can. Plug in the La Scala and the music has bloom, the soundstage opens up and each note has more body. You realise that the LS 3/5a offers a unique, and very attractive window into the music. The La Scala puts you in the room with the music. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
@silverfox@ Posted November 25, 2006 Share Posted November 25, 2006 so does this mean that since the low distortion of the amplifier, and the heritage speakers are so close, it matters not that it is beign powered by SET or any other source capable of producing sound at normal listening level. the journey isn't baised on the first step, but rather the distance and the resistance encountered along the path beign persued. the atributes required will vary , finess, agility, stamina, and endurance is needed to complete this process, does any single piece of eqpt posses these atributes. what is it about SET amps? IT WON'T GET YOU THERE!!!!!!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erik Mandaville Posted November 25, 2006 Share Posted November 25, 2006 Edwin: "I'm sorry guys. Try as you might, you can't convince me that 1.5 quality watts is better than 50 quality watts. I'll take more power everytime." Where did anyone say 1.5 watts is inherently better than 50? It's clear some here have indicated they were perfectly satisfied with their lower powered amp/s, and IMO that's really what this discussion has been about. If you prefer higher power to lower, there is no law anywhere that will prevent your admission to higher wattage. I have read articles that rather blatantly state that higher power amplifiers will take away from some the qualities of Klipschorns and La, but those statements are nothing more than opinion. Lots of guys/gals use the same speakers with big amps and couldn't be happier. We should feel free to use what sounds best. I prefer a little more power for HT use, and the 3-channel Teac was perfect for that. Dave: I am glad to hear the Horus-based amps are working out for you. Thanks for mentioning that, and let me know if you ever need help with them, maintenance, or whatever. Craig mentioned some threads back that while vacuum tube technology can be very reliable, it nevertheless needs some TLC from time-to-time. I agree with that. Erik Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Travis In Austin Posted November 25, 2006 Moderators Share Posted November 25, 2006 You can't convince me that 1.5 watts is better than 50 quality watts. Well if we can't do that, let try this. Assume an airplane is on a moving runway. . . oh never mind. [] Travis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edwinr Posted November 25, 2006 Share Posted November 25, 2006 LOL! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cut-Throat Posted November 25, 2006 Share Posted November 25, 2006 What is really amusing about these SET debates is the 'need' of the high power amplifier people to prove with specifications that SET amplifiers are not satisfying. The reverse is never true, mostly because people don't inquire 'What is it about Push-Pull amplifiers? Most of us SET devotees have Push Pull amps sitting on the Shelf. Heck I own most all amp Topologies. I have made my decision and am comfortable with it. So just be happy with what you have and don't feel the need to trash talk SET amps when anyone inquires about owning one. Buy a good one used. Listen to it and make your own mind up. Don't let any narrow minded people tell you to not even try it because of some Specifications that they are throwing around. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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