WAF & Church Committees

[tuned4life]

Not trying to preach to the choir but it would seem that unity is the greater good. That would require you to either donate the speakers to the church or store them some where else. As it stands its your will against someone elses. A reciept for the formation of clicks among the members. This can only result in resentment and hurt feelings. What started out as a seemingly harmless thing has taken an unfortunate turn. When I get tired of getting my a$$ kicked I quit trying to lead the parade. Live and Let Live. Blessed are the peace makers.

[bodcaw boy]

Not trying to preach to the choir but it would seem that unity is the greater good. That would require you to either donate the speakers to the church or store them some where else. As it stands its your will against someone elses. A reciept for the formation of clicks among the members. This can only result in resentment and hurt feelings. What started out as a seemingly harmless thing has taken an unfortunate turn. When I get tired of getting my a$$ kicked I quit trying to lead the parade. Live and Let Live. Blessed are the peace makers.

i agree with what you have said as i think a solution can be reached to accomodate everyone but if one person who might be in the minority imposes their views on the rest (sounds like our politically correct society, doesn't it?), then something needs to be done for the majority. you got the verse right: Blessed are the peacemakers. but most people put this verse into action: blessed are the peacekeepers.....

roy delgado

[djk]

"I'd think they'd be able to slap together a simple picture frame, wrap it with new cloth, shove into place. "

That works.

http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=260-344

"why not fabric draped over them really thin like scrim? "

Anything other than real grill cloth usually has excessive high frequency loss. I measured everything that looked likely in a local fabric store and the average loss around 10Khz was on the order of 10dB.

[CaptnBob]

I've dealt with church committees on their P.A.s for thirty years now. and all I can tell you is, you will lose. It will become "a mission from God" for her to get the Cornwalls out of there. And don't think cost will be an object - you'd be surprised how deep the decorating pockets can be. I'd get the Cornwalls moved before the plants have a chance to leak on them. I've had to mount a speaker above and behind the podium, and then put a heavy damask curtain in front of it, cut holes in the walls so the speakers could be flush mounted, and other acoustic atrocities just to satisfy the whims of decorating committees. One of the earlier posters was right - your best bet is to "fly" the speaker - possibly a Heresy - over the podium. Theoretically, you want the speaker(s) to share the same plane, both side to side and front and back, as the source. The altitude will keep the sound from being blocked by the first rows of parishoners. Of course, you will pretty much trash the speaker. To safely hang it you'll need to run rods all the way through it so that it's supported from the bottom. You really need to know what you are doing to hang a speaker safely. I can't stress that enough.

Maybe you could replace that round thing in the front with an Empire Grenadier...

[Deang]

"...they gathered in a large crowd...Then Peter stood up with the Eleven, raised his voice, and proclaimed to them..."

I say get rid of the P.A., and the weak kneed preacher that can't be heard without it -- then get the woman a nice roll of duct tape with I Corinthians 14:34 written on it.

[IndyKlipschFan]

It is funny, no one has asked the original poster, Woodog, how HE thinks it sounds? OK, he said "Glorious!!!" LOL. What do other musicians think in his church? What does the minister think too? Do you even have feedback problems? Were implying a lot here. While I agree a different colored grill cloth might help some to blend in, at SOME point you have to ask yourself, "Is this about the sound or how it looks?" If it is only looks, you might be in trouble. Having heard Cornwall's in a church and LOVED them in how they sounded myself, they are hard to beat. Yes, my opinion.

As someone that went church shopping a few years back, I can attest that some speakers were incredible, some ugly looking, some sounded great, others sucked sound wise... Every successful (from a attendance observation only here) church had a WONDERFUL sound system most average ones (again, only from people going) had poor ones. Some can see a correlation with more money, but I also think the message was better heard in the better churches and muffled or how "politically correct" can I say it, poor.. in the poor ones. (Again from attendance and what seemed like a lack of money running them ) I can agree with some of the "let's make it pretty committees in charge" can be troublesome too. Often, a budget will dictate what will be done. Been there, done that too. Locally here in Indy, JBL and EAW seem to be very strong in the better churches.

I also have to giggle here, too. All of my 8 La Scala's I purchased for my Klipsch Dream Home Theater came off of this board. ALL of them out of 2 church locations, 4 La Scala's in Cleveland, Ohio, and 4 La Scala's from very south Ft Lauderdale, Florida as well. I drove my van to get both of these deals, and loved the experience as well. (I live in Indianapolis, Indiana, yet some of you will not drive 20 min. for a good deal.. hahahaha) So thank goodness for little old church ladies.... hahahahahaha

I drove with much excitement to get all of them with a AVERAGE cost of 400 per PAIR for the la Scala's. 3200 / 8 = 400 In both situations, they had a few tweeters blown, were all the split, pro models, (which I wanted!!) I believe someone up there who is a "Klipsch Angel" was looking out for me, because all of the La Scala's were made within the same year, and with the same x overs too. OK, I was very lucky!!

So in a way, I feel very blessed for ladies like this. They opened my door to what I have today! []

[jt1stcav]

Maybe you could replace that round thing in the front with an Empire Grenadier...

What is that thing anyway? It does look like a Grenadier.[]

The way I see it, if the minister and the rest of the church committee/administrators/musicians all agree on the sound quality of Woo's gracious gifts, then to heck with what that woman thinks! Maybe you should consider light colored cloth or blonde cane grilles to replace the black grilles...other than that, I wouldn't change a thing (except room placement as mentioned by others if their present locations cause any localization or other acoustical problems).

FWIW...I think they're great!

[George Roland]

Women like *some* black furniture. My wife and I have a Steinway M baby grand. It's black. It takes up about as much floor space as my K-horns. Of course the K-horns are in the corners out of the way, and the piano has to be out in the room. I tried the, "think of the K-horns as large works of minimalist sculpture." Why is the piano "beautiful" and the K-horns "those big ugly things"? Uhh you can see under the piano.... Uhh the piano has elegant curves....Uhh....

Anyway, I'm lucky. My wife is a really good egg. She hasn't fussed at me too much about the K-horns. She smiles at me, kind of shakes her head and says quietly, "You're nuts." I suggested that if there was too much furniture, we could sell the piano. Got nowhere with that one, of course. No one ever plays the piano, but it does a real good job of looking stylish and holding up the family photos. Go figure.

Why don't you take your speakers back from the church, give the offended lady ten bucks and let her knock herself out buying speakers ;^)?

George

[thebes]

I think she has a point and I hope you didn't break any important Commandments arguing , er discoursing, this subject with her.

Nice modern church design, heavily adopted post-Vatican II (no matter what the demonination).

These
altar designs are intended to place the focus on the priest/pastor
whatever, the sacraments (if applicable) etc. and not on the means of
delivery.

Tastefully making them disappear is good advice as I'm
sure Michael's knows much more about positioning for PA use then I ever
would so keep his comments in mind.

Not religous at all but if
anything would bring someone closer to God then I'm sure music in a
church being played through some Heresys and Corwalls would
qualify.

Look if it desn't work out we'll lauch a full blown schism and
set up the Church of Klipsch. We already know who we will worship
but there may be some lively debate over who gets to be Pope.

[Marvel]

Our church just went through some extensive renovations this past year. For our church, our choir is in the back and requires absolutely no amplification. The organ speakers are above the doors at the rear of the church so the music carries quite well throughout. The ceiling tile was replaced with solid tile (actually plastic tile on 1/4 inch wood panels, to hold them in place. All carpet was removed, with ceramic tile on the aisles and wood flooring in the area under all the pews.

We had a couple of small Bose or TOA speakers mounted on the side walls previously, but our pastor wanted nothing visible. Since the only PA is for the single mic on the lectern, there are two speakers mounted in the area of the two side arches, behind some grills. You can't tell they are there, and the sound is excellent throughout the room for the spoken word. I usually get roped into these things, but someone else at our church worked on it and it has worked out great. The pic has red arrows to show where the two speakers are mounted. I don't know if they are coaxial or not. Could be, but I don't know. Again, they are certainly unobtrusive.

For a church that requires more of a PA, it could still be done. When we moved in to this building (a former Baptist church), there was a 24 channel Mackie board and monitors everywhere. A huge Yamaha wedge was suspended from the ceiling over the lectern that was placed right in the middle, facing the congregation. We didn't need any of it, so it came down almost immediately.

Bruce

[theplummer]

"...they gathered in a large crowd...Then Peter stood up with the Eleven, raised his voice, and proclaimed to them..."

I say get rid of the P.A., and the weak kneed preacher that can't be heard without it -- then get the woman a nice roll of duct tape with I Corinthians 14:34 written on it.

THAT'S AWESOME. Wasn't familiar with that one, so I looked it up. Man thy good book has a line for EVERY occaision. LOL

[pauln]

Let me be of help... two things, - first get some stained glass grill cloth and get the ladies on a sewing project to make them for the corns. Second, it looks like those corns might just fit into the windows... like this:

[DrWho]

lol! [Y]

You could even put little lights behind the grills to match the color of the light coming through above the speakers too! Maybe go all out and use some mirror tricks to make them completely invisible (hey, that's actually not that bad of an idea....)

[colterphoto1]

At the Lutheran Church I attended as a teen, there was a reflector behind the pulpit made of large wooden planks. They formed some type of curve that threw the Pastor's voice toward the massed with a great strength.

They now have an oversized pipe organ bequeathed by members of the congregation, and all the readers speak from cheesy handheld radio mics. Two Mackie Bi-amped speakers on stands occupy the wings of this rather spartan building. It probably seats no more than 150-200 members, but all this gear is now necessary.

I agree with the aforementioned verse. SPEAK UP PEOPLE!

[Woodog]

Thanks for all the responses.....

Update: I got a call from the board president this a.m., he said that he heard about Ms. L---- talking to me about the Corns. Then he told me she didn't even have the support of her committee or of the board. I thought she was bringing me the wishes of her committee but it was just her. The speakers stay.

However, I agree with tuned4life. I'm gonna try to find some way to minimalize their visual impact. At this point it's a compromise I don't have to make, but it's church of people, and the speakers are only things, no matter how fine they sound.

George, The speakers exisit primarily for an electric piano, a Roland RD-600. 2 years ago the church had an opportunity to buy a Kawai RX-7 from another church for 12,000. I offered to put up $4000 of that, but they still didn't go for it.Incredible. If we had an acoustic instrument in there, we wouldn't need a P.A. In fact, I would sell the Corns in a minute if I thought we would get a nice acoustic instrument. Well, maybe not a minute... maybe a month, or two.

Indy, the room isn't the best for critical listening, whatever that is. It has about 1.5 seconds of reverberation, heavy on the low mid frequencies when empty and slightly less when filled up with people. GREAT for singing, though. I wouldn't change a thing, though. I like the liveliness of the room.

Oh, and Indy, you won't be getting my speaks!! LOL.

Later,

Woo

[IndyKlipschFan]

Oh, and Indy, you won't be getting my speaks!! LOL. It is ok.... Anyone have a church sale on Belles too?? LOL.. I am beginning to feel like Micheal.. Own em all.. hahahahahaha

I am glad your happy, I was just saying a lot of churches had La Scala's and Cornwall's in their places of worship. Most, if they had fixed a tweeter here... a fuse there... and placement wise moved them properly would of been most surprised.. Possibly impressed with what they had.

I played music from 4 LSI La Scala's through a small amp... like 35 watts from the back of a church in Ft Lauderdale... Even with 2 tweeters blown.. Colterphoto1 (Michael) can attest..... James Taylor was heavenly!!!

[Marvel]

Indy, the room isn't the best for critical listening, whatever that is. It has about 1.5 seconds of reverberation, heavy on the low mid frequencies when empty and slightly less when filled up with people. GREAT for singing, though. I wouldn't change a thing, though. I like the liveliness of the room.

woo,

That is why we took out all or the carpet and made the ceiling solid tile. Absolutely great for singing. I have been in too many churches where you can't even tell the person next to you is singing.

Bruce

[Parrot]

I'm surprised Dr. Who is letting you have any speakers in there at all without first figuring the Fourier transforms.

[3dzapper]

Woo, Check out this site. They have a wide selection of grill material if that is the route you chose:

http://www.acousticalsolutions.com/products/fabrics/grille_cloth.asp

Rick

[pauln]

!