SilverSport Posted February 4, 2007 Share Posted February 4, 2007 Are We Fooling Ourselves... ...with high end digital equipment SOUNDWISE???My Cambridge Azur 640c Version 1 has some minor problems with the front panel controls and the GF needs a new CD player so she can play all the home made burned CDs so I picked her up a bargain Toshiba SD 3990 based on the recomendations here and my own use of the Toshy SD 3950s (2) I have...anyway...so I took the Cambridge out of service and gave the new 3990 a spin...I cannot hear where I am missing ANYTHING from the Cambridge...I understand the Cambridge is not near the be all end all for a CD player but it has been HIGHLY acclaimed...my review of it against my 3950 made me think at first there was no difference but later perhaps there was more bass with the Cambridge (my mind TRYING to justify the 5 times more dollars spent on the Cambridge???) but honestly, I cannot tell...now with the hood off or just weightwise...the SD 3990 is a couple of pounds whereas the Cambridge is weighty and looks splendid under the hood BUT...this of course is not giving me anything soundwise (at least not that I can quantify)...SO...have we (or perhaps...just me...) been fooling ourselves on what sounds good or decent at least digitalwise???In the past, I tried a Sony DVD player in this way and have to admit...at THAT time, I didn't care for the Sony (NS575P) as a CD player although it does just fine as a DVD player...I am currently running the $36.00 Toshiba SD 3990 with a JuicyMusic Audio PreAmp and NOSValves VRDs with Ei KT-90s through Klipschorns...I would love to hear your thoughts...Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
russ69 Posted February 4, 2007 Share Posted February 4, 2007 "Are we fooling ourselves?" Yes and no. Your CD player might be the strongest link in your chain. Good players do sound better but the differences are smaller than say changing loudspeakers (the weekest link in our chain). The frequency extremes will show the biggest difference with the mid range very much sounding the same (at least with players near the same price). The 640 is a bit smooth but not in a dramatic way, it's possible that the Khorns don't show that off as much as some other speaker might. Thanx, Russ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joshnich Posted February 4, 2007 Share Posted February 4, 2007 Not sure if this answers your question but I have beeen able to compare a stock Sony 222es and one that has been modded by SACDmods. I happen to own both modded and non modded versions. I can say the difference between the two is pretty noticeable at least to me. The mods consist of upgrading the caps and the clock (what ever that is) and a few other things. I would think that the higher end digital equipment would have the best parts and so far for me the stuff that has the better parts tends to sound better. Not always but most of the time. Josh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meagain Posted February 4, 2007 Share Posted February 4, 2007 Are We Fooling Ourselves... SO...have we (or perhaps...just me...) been fooling ourselves on what sounds good or decent at least digitalwise??? Bill Yes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mas Posted February 4, 2007 Share Posted February 4, 2007 You know, digital equipment can easily be measured in terms of bit error rates. I find it interesting that such a simple measurement is never used in audio (to my knowledge.) And even if it is perfect, it is still an approximation of the original analog source. [] Digital simply makes processing the signal after its conversion to the digital domain easier. And its not too difficult in many instances to reach the point where what you are struggling with is trying to improve on the source material! A rather futile effort! I do think it is easy, beyond a certain point, to get carried away with the perception of 'more money is necessarily better' in digital. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SilverSport Posted February 4, 2007 Author Share Posted February 4, 2007 ahhhh sooo...according to some...there is a noticable difference in the really expensive (well over $1000.00) stuff but perhaps not so much in the under 1K???...I could buy a new Toshiba (or whatever the NEXT great bargain player is) every year for the next five years (although I have almost 2 years on the Toshiba 3950s I have) before I would break even on just the Cambridge...more than 10 years before ...awwww forget it......keep the thoughts coming please. Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meagain Posted February 4, 2007 Share Posted February 4, 2007 Silver - have you tried your outlaw stuff on the khorns? Or compared them with your 2-ch stuff yet? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jt1stcav Posted February 4, 2007 Share Posted February 4, 2007 Maybe we are fooling ourselves, I dunno. I, too also own a 1st gen 24/192 azur 640C that sounds absolutely spectacular to my ears. But so did the 24/96 AMC CD8b that the azur replaced (and the 1-bit MASH Carver SD/T-450 before that). To my less-than golden ears, the differences between these three TOTL players are really subtle at best. And with improvements in digital technology with all these budget "universal" players nowadays, even their standard 2-channel CD playback capabilities (which were inferior only a couple of years ago) are really sounding quite outstanding today, comparable IMHO to high-end CD players of only a few years ago. FWIW... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SilverSport Posted February 4, 2007 Author Share Posted February 4, 2007 No, I haven't tried the Outlaw stuff on the K'Horns...I did try Nakamichi TA/2A McIntosh MAC1900 receiver gone over by Terry DeWick McIntosh MA-6200 Integrated Am done over by Audio Classics EICO HF-81 JuicyMusic Audio BlueBerry-NOSValves VRDs... I found I prefer the Tubes...no fatigue...some say that fatigue is a hoax...I just know my forehead doesn't wrinkle up when I listen to lots of Tube music as it did when I listened to SS music... Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mas Posted February 4, 2007 Share Posted February 4, 2007 I think it is a very good point that jt1stcav raises, that is both very practical and economical. With the rapid advancement in technology and the rapidity that such technology trickles down thus raising the overall baseline in performance, I suspect that doing what you suggest - even if it is every 2-3 years would result in a higher performing unit than an expensive unit held onto for a longer period. Plus you would have the benefit of having a pretty good unit for another room or one of the children, etc. That's the path I go with, simply as the technology is not static and continues to evolve. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wallflower Posted February 4, 2007 Share Posted February 4, 2007 Very interesting topic...<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /> I've recently done a <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" />LOT of auditioning of CD players and I had pretty much come to the same conclusion. I've got a really inexpensive Toshiba DVD player that I've used for audio CDs and I thought I needed to improve on that component thinking it was the weakest link in my system. I demoed up to $14,000 CD players (at home and in my system) and I was stunned at how little improvement was made over the Toshiba. The more expensive players had, in some cases a better base response and maybe a little bit better detail on the high end, but overall the differences were pretty minimal and hardly worth the delta in price. I tried the best Arcam they make, the Cambridge Audio 840C, NAD, SONY, Jolida, CARY and dCS... and none were that impressive compared to my lowly Toshiba. That is until tried the new Rega Saturn. That CD player sounded very different to me. It's got the qualities of a warm and natural analog audio sound, while being very detailed and dynamic at the same time. It's got really good PRAT (that funny brit expression). It reproduces the sound of cymbals, voices and piano exceptionally well (piano, by the way, is one thing I really hear a lot of differences between CD players in terms of how they reproduce the sound; some sound just O.K. some don't, the Saturn sounds really spot on in this regard). It really shines with new digitally recorded CDs, but it also does something in it's processing to significantly improve the sound of old CDs that came from original analog tapes. It is remarkable to hear. I would highly recommend an audition of the Saturn or the Apollo. I have not tried the Apollo but I understand it does a lot of the same things as the Saturn without quite as much depth and detail. Personally I think there's probably a point of diminishing returns in terms of what they can do with digital sound given the technology that most of the CD audio companies are using (e.g. upsampling, etc...). That's maybe why the Saturn sounds different. Rega went back to the drawing board and are using their own transport and own operating system which really makes their CD player sound significantly different from other players I've auditioned. If other companies start doing this, we may hear much better sounding CD players in the future. We'll see. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest " " Posted February 4, 2007 Share Posted February 4, 2007 Eventually the lower priced units catch up from the inital offerings from manufactuers at higher prices. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators dtel Posted February 4, 2007 Moderators Share Posted February 4, 2007 I think for the most part the answer is YES, probably more with CD players than anything else in any setup, excluding wires / Cables and with those I would think a bigger YES. Not that there is not an improvement, but how much of an improvement for twice or ten times as much money. I would guess the improvement in price to performance difference is smaller than any other changes. Also there is much to be said for just a good match up of equipment I've heard it called synergy here alot, but some things just sound good together. After speakers , I would guess the recording has the biggest difference of anything. I could go listen to 10 CD's and hear about 5 different recording quality levels , just the way it is. And don't even start on how much difference a room can make. You would think with digital music there should be more of a standard of quality, but there doesnt seem to be any standard. Always,...IMHO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicago_Pete Posted February 4, 2007 Share Posted February 4, 2007 Bill when I started my usual obsessive quest I started with a late nineties Sony S7000, to a McIntosh, to a Jolida tube, to a AH! Njoe Tjoeb and finally to a Krell transport with a separate DAC. The only thing I'm missing is that stack of cash that it cost me. But hell, that is why we have vinyl:) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edwinr Posted February 4, 2007 Share Posted February 4, 2007 Upgrading your CD player can reap quite dramatic improvements to overall sound quality. The degree that these improvements become apparent is determined by the quality of the rest of the components in your system. Also merely changing digital sources for another diigital source of similar capabilities won't achieve much. This is not a factor of price and marketing double speak. This is more a factor of design and the ability of the manufacturer to get the best out of the 0's and 1's. What can you hear when you insert a really well designed CD player in your sustem? Well compared with a cheaper unit, you should hear less digital hash, a smoother frequency response - particularly in the highs, more focus and less connfusion to the sound - particularly in busy pieces of music, and much less fatique when listening for lengthy periods. Some of the really good integrated digital sources available at the moment include offerings from Mark Levinson, CEC, Naim and Ayre. Then you move on to the seperate CD transports and DACS. I can't afford this stuff so I stick to the integrated CD players. If you guys get a chance, audition an older Mark Levinson in your systems. I tried an early model No.39. Amazing. I ended up buying a Ayre CX-7e because I didn't need the built in digital pre-amp of the Mark Levinson. P.S. Bill, you should try comparing your 640C and Toshiba with a Rotel 1072. Now the Rotel is about where decent quality CD sound really starts... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
russ69 Posted February 4, 2007 Share Posted February 4, 2007 Some people forget that a CD player has an audio amp and an D/A converter. The more expensive players have much better amps but again for mid price players under $1000 the differences are small. Thanx, Russ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwc Posted February 4, 2007 Share Posted February 4, 2007 Bill. Here is my take on CD Players. I do think the CD player makes a difference. There is also "good bargain finds" that ironically sound better than they cost. This is how some get lucky or purchase a CD Player by waiting for a large number of reviews. The reviews on this forum are helpfull but I typically go to Audioreview.com and look for bargain stuff that has rave reviews. This is how I bought my HSU sub and my recent AH! I have a McIntosh MVP 851 CD/DVD-A that is only 3 years old. I paid $3600 for it. When I bought it, it basically was to "visually" match the other McIntosh stuff I had. May sound stupid but this was my wife's input. I have enjoyed it and it plays most everyting except SACD'S. Recently I bought the AH! with all the upgrades. There is absolutely no doubt in my mind right now that the AH! sounds better that the MAC. It cost less than half as much. I pretty much use the MAC for DVD's and all CD's run through the AH! Now I am a big MAC fan so I have no reason to slam the MAC. It is just the way it is. jc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SilverSport Posted February 4, 2007 Author Share Posted February 4, 2007 Don'cha just love perspective...and I thought middle of the road was about $300 or so...so they don't start getting good until well over the $1000 mark???...well I guess I should stick with the throw-a-way Toshiba... Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SilverSport Posted February 4, 2007 Author Share Posted February 4, 2007 jc...I got you...it is how I got the JuicyMusic BlueBerry and the NOSValves VRDs...it is how I found the Cambridge and the Toshiba...it is how I got the strength for the Klipschorns and the Quartets and the Heresys and the RB-5s and the KM-4s and the... I really do understand...money is not the ONLY factor in getting the good stuff and there are BARGAINS to be found out there...the Toshiba to my ears sounds almost if not all the way to the Cambridge...there are better units but much higher...the Ah being twice the Cambridge...and so on...thanks for the conversation... Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators dtel Posted February 4, 2007 Moderators Share Posted February 4, 2007 Don'cha just love perspective...and I thought middle of the road was about $300 or so...so they don't start getting good until well over the $1000 mark???...well I guess I should stick with the throw-a-way Toshiba... Bill Me too, over $1000 for a cdp is not going to happen here, not with my half dead ears ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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