Crites tweeters?

[Coytee]

I sent her my JBL 2404's on Friday. I suppose she'll have them mid/late this week.

Do you think with slight modification to her tophat, we can send her a K-402 and have her mate it to Al's Trachorn's??

[6]

[meagain]

Each available network changes the sonic signature of the speaker, and with those who have tried the different types tend to develop strong preferences over time. Everyone doesn't like the same thing, it's just that simple. Also, fully horn loaded speakers by their very nature don't have the smoothest of frequency responses -- and regardless of the network used, there are always some anomolies in the responses. Some are bothered by them and some aren't. You can add a dozen elements into the filter to pull down and lift response (smooth the response), but I think it just sucks the life out of the sound. Most of us like horns for the dynamics and hair trigger transients, and are willing to trade a smoother response for the quick get up and go and transparency afforded by low part count filters. Some people using those type filters sometimes feel they want to "tame" things, and this is done with attenuation -- which really just amounts to changing the balance of the speaker. A network should provide reasonably flat response across the range of the speaker, and shouldn't be thought of something that should provide a cure all for everything in the sound that bugs you. Crossovers are an important part of the system -- but they're just one part. Personally, I think all of the available filters are solid designs and capable of excellent sound.

If you've tried everything reasonably possible and you're still not satisfied with sound, then you have to decide if you want to up the ante or not. No network or piece of gear can bring to the table what better horns and drivers do.

Isn't the above bold a bit contradictory?

I think crossovers are ultra-important and can basically give you totally different speakers IMO. I was pretty happy nuking that bump 8db with the EQ Dean. But tonight, I'm feeling some AK-3 love. Or k-55-m love, or healthier driver love, or k401 (kinda damped) love, and higher tweeter on the end.... This may change tomorrow if the novelty wears off. I think x-overs are critical and even the type of caps bring something to the table. How some folks can live with 20+ year old speakers without at least refreshing the caps is beyond me.

BOB - Since you say your experience tells you the k-77's can vary by quite a bit, and that perhaps new diaphragms can indeed act a bit like new x-over caps....... (all things I believe right now).... Do you have an opinion on the squawker? I wonder if the squawks can vary as well, benefit by new diaphragms every ?? 10 years or so, or if you feel they might be more stable/quality?

Silver - You have a Nak Stasis amp. I got one (Stasis 5aII pa? something like that with 'wings').... I lent it to a friend along with a pair of Cornwalls. Only listened to it to test the speakers, and I must say they sounded amazing. Which one do you have? Maybe I'll PM you on that. I wanted to try it on the khorns but didn't get to it.

[BEC]

I have seen a few midrange drivers that were working benefit from a new diaphragm.  I don't know how often that would be the case.  

New diaphragms sometimes change the output of tweeters.  Most often that change is to make them louder.

Bob

[Seadog]

I've been trying to settle on a tweeter for several months. This set up allows me to switch between tweeters with the throw of a switch. The three shown are the K-77M, the Eminence APT 200 (same driver as the Crites tweeter), and the Beyma CP 25. Without going into a lot of detail, I think that the Beyma will be the "one" that I stick with. I still think that the improvement moving from the K401 to the 511B (or ALK Trachorns) far exceeds the improvement that a tweeter change can provide.

[Cut-Throat]

Agree Seadog! - The Midrange Altec Horn and Driver that I use, instead of the Khorn Stock Midrange, was the biggest improvement in Audio that I've done in 30 years!

[SilverSport]

meagain,

My Nakamichi is towards the lower end...TA-2A (receiver)...my brother has PA-7s (the highest end)...nice sounding if somewhat colder or more analytical compared to the Yamaha CA-610II it replaced in 1989 (warmer sounding)...provided I am using the "big" terms correctly

Bill

[cjgeraci]

I've been trying to settle on a tweeter for several months. This set up allows me to switch between tweeters with the throw of a switch. The three shown are the K-77M, the Eminence APT 200 (same driver as the Crites tweeter), and the Beyma CP 25. Without going into a lot of detail, I think that the Beyma will be the "one" that I stick with. I still think that the improvement moving from the K401 to the 511B (or ALK Trachorns) far exceeds the improvement that a tweeter change can provide.

Very interesting, Seadog. I have also been doing a similar comparison - though not as technically proficient - between the APT 200 and the CP 25 (I threw the various K-77 models out of the mix from the onset). Currently, the APT 200 is winning for me over the CP 25, though I have not made up my mind finally about the issue. One thing that I noticed was that I liked the APT 200 much better behind a cloth grill than stand alone on top, its voicing appears quite a bit different with cloth in front of it. Actually, I could live with either tweeter nicely.

I agree that the move to 511s and/or ALK Trachorns is much more important than a tweeter change. I remind my wife of this every time she sees the 511s sitting on top of my beautiful Belles (with a revised top hat to come later this year). After all, we live in the midrange. Especially more so for me because I traditionally run my tweeters attentuated about 7 db down.

Carl.

[cjgeraci]

cursed double post. Sometimes this forum software is downright bizarre.

Carl.

[Deang]

Lisa, nothing really contradictory there. I guess it does depend on how one defines reasonably flat. In the context of horns, I'm using it to mean no large areas of suckout or high peaky spots. The older networks don't have any real response shaping elements in them, so frequency response is a little rough looking: +/- 5dB average through most of the range with some +/- 10dB points. Al's Trachorn page has a nice plot that exemplifies what I'm talking about: http://www.alkeng.com/trachorn.html Bass horns and pro-style tweeters are problematic in this regard as well. So sure, me applying the statement "reasonably flat response" to a horn system that's mostly +/- 5dB with some +/- 10dB points doesn't appear to make much sense, and in the world of cones and domes the comment would be considered ludicrous. However, in the context of horns -- it's "reasonably flat". Now, you can "fix" some of the irregularities in the response with the network to get a solid +/- 5dB -- and this is what Roy has done with the AK-4.

Seadog, I ended up preferring the Beyma too. It does the work of adding the top in without drawing attention to itself.

[Deang]

I traditionally run my tweeters attentuated about 7 db down.

That's because you're a crank'em up fool.

[colterphoto1]

I've been trying to settle on a tweeter for several months. This set up allows me to switch between tweeters with the throw of a switch. The three shown are the K-77M, the Eminence APT 200 (same driver as the Crites tweeter), and the Beyma CP 25. Without going into a lot of detail, I think that the Beyma will be the "one" that I stick with. I still think that the improvement moving from the K401 to the 511B (or ALK Trachorns) far exceeds the improvement that a tweeter change can provide.

Is one of the top ones a Crites tweeter? I thought Bob's CT125 retrofit the K77 opening. Is the APT200 the same as some other Crites tweeter that I'm not aware of and have you used the CT125 in any of your research?

I'll be picking up a pair of Heresies with Bob's rebuilt networks and the CT125 soon. Looking forward to my own experimentation. Thanks for the comments on mid mods vs tweet mods. I still feel ok with my 400's but think there is something lacking on the top end of my LS's and I have new A/AA's in them. Tweeters could be the answer for me.

I'm also going to look into purchasing a pair of the K107's used in the CWIII and HIII for high end extension. And that is a Tractrix horn to boot!

Michael

[meagain]

Dean - I think I understand.

About this tweeter thing and what one perceives as shrill/harsh/sibilant, etc.... Right now, I don't think it's the WHOLE tweeter section that causes this. For "me".... I have no trouble with a tweeter being hotter than the mids say around 8k+, in fact, I like it. But if that hotness is around 6k - yipes! This makes me wonder 2 things....

1) Maybe physically the ear can't tolerate hotness in that area. This frequency area does a certain bad something physically vs. say 10k. I even tried looking up where muted trumpet lies, as I think that darned thing lands smack dab in this 6500ish area but couldn't find anything.

2) Could it be the overlap from the squawker here negatively affecting this area? Like a build up of the 2 which ramps up the volume there OR causes distortion? For instance, Craig keeps saying he feels my issue lies with the squawker but doesn't seem to clarify this. So if #2 is the culprit, I can see the type of crossover being critical to those with 'pierce' issues like me. Since trying an ak-3 recently and instantly seeing my issue go away, and (I think) this x-over has a steeper slope and nukes the squawk sharper at the end of it's rope (if I have that right)..... then maybe..... is it possible to take, say, a basic AA network and install a part that creates a steeper slope at the squawk/tweet transition area? That maybe this would reduce distortion there?

[cjgeraci]

I've been trying to settle on a tweeter for several months. This set up allows me to switch between tweeters with the throw of a switch. The three shown are the K-77M, the Eminence APT 200 (same driver as the Crites tweeter), and the Beyma CP 25. Without going into a lot of detail, I think that the Beyma will be the "one" that I stick with. I still think that the improvement moving from the K401 to the 511B (or ALK Trachorns) far exceeds the improvement that a tweeter change can provide.

Is one of the top ones a Crites tweeter? I thought Bob's CT125 retrofit the K77 opening. Is the APT200 the same as some other Crites tweeter that I'm not aware of and have you used the CT125 in any of your research?

I'll be picking up a pair of Heresies with Bob's rebuilt networks and the CT125 soon. Looking forward to my own experimentation. Thanks for the comments on mid mods vs tweet mods. I still feel ok with my 400's but think there is something lacking on the top end of my LS's and I have new A/AA's in them. Tweeters could be the answer for me.

I'm also going to look into purchasing a pair of the K107's used in the CWIII and HIII for high end extension. And that is a Tractrix horn to boot!

Michael

Michael, the Eminence APT 200 is available from a number of sources including Parts Express and uses the same driver that Bob Crites' tweeter, the CT 125 uses - the Eminence APT-50 tweeter. Bob designed and commissioned production of a horn lens the shape of K-77s to fit the APT-50 driver so that the resulting driver would be a drop-in replacement for the K-77. Some forum members who do not need (or want) the K-77 shape have opted for the APT 200, which has a wider dispersion in the classic baby cheeks style. There is also another Eminence horn available, the APT-150 which looks like a much bigger version of the K-77 shape. I use both, an Eminence APT 200 in my Klipschorns, and Bob's CT 125 in my center Belle.

Carl.

[meagain]

Trumpets would top out at about 1Khz.

I think Muted trumpet is another ballgame. And I think there's various methods used to get that effect that must change the frequencies? Basically, I cannot have Miles Davis on in this house without seriously eq'ing this 6-6500 area. It goes beyond annoyance to physically buzzing my eardrums. It leaps out freekishly at these certain frequencies to the point of being in the damaging category (IMO). When I turn on my deq to see what it looks like, the muted trumpet has a bar that skyrockets right at this 6k area. Same with sibilance. For us here, it's just a big trouble area and have no issues with pain if the higher frequencies are hot.

[gonzp]

Trumpets would top out at about 1Khz.

I think Muted trumpet is another ballgame. And I think there's various methods used to get that effect that must change the frequencies? Basically, I cannot have Miles Davis on in this house without seriously eq'ing this 6-6500 area. It goes beyond annoyance to physically buzzing my eardrums. It leaps out freekishly at these certain frequencies to the point of being in the damaging category (IMO). When I turn on my deq to see what it looks like, the muted trumpet has a bar that skyrockets right at this 6k area. Same with sibilance. For us here, it's just a big trouble area and have no issues with pain if the higher frequencies are hot.

Lisa,

What Miles Davis recordings are you speaking of? I have heard that some of the recordings of say, Kind of Blue are not top quality recordings. Maybe some of the cool jazz cats from Craigs thread could expand on this some more. This is just simply something that I have heard over the years, how much truth there is too it ???????

[colterphoto1]

Trumpets would top out at about 1Khz.

I think Muted trumpet is another ballgame. And I think there's various methods used to get that effect that must change the frequencies? Basically, I cannot have Miles Davis on in this house without seriously eq'ing this 6-6500 area. It goes beyond annoyance to physically buzzing my eardrums. It leaps out freekishly at these certain frequencies to the point of being in the damaging category (IMO). When I turn on my deq to see what it looks like, the muted trumpet has a bar that skyrockets right at this 6k area. Same with sibilance. For us here, it's just a big trouble area and have no issues with pain if the higher frequencies are hot.

I think this might be possible to be linked to the recordings themselves, but I'm not that educated in that area. Miles' trumpet does have a peculiar ringing timbre that is very metallic, somewhat shrill, and could be construed as bothersome, but isn't it possible that that is simply his 'voice' in the trumpet? Miles recordings had a very unique tonality whatever the source or cause.

[meagain]

Ah - but despite the quality of the recording, I have no problem on another pair of khorns in the same room. I also have a Sinatra cd with 2 muted horn sections I use as a test CD which I know is a bad recording. It's gone now. I have a few sibilance test cds. Sibilance (we're talking physical ear buzz/duck & cover level) now gone. It's not the recordings or the room. But for 'me' I think my issues are moot as of this weekend, and I'm REALLY enjoying khorns today and have had a few epiphanys and what I need to do from here.

Anyhoo, I just really believe that there's alot of variables to these tweeter experiences out there to consider before blaming just the tweeter (for loud vs. soft, etc. etc). But I'd really like to know the answer to the 2 theories I posted above.

[LarryC]

Doesn't the 1 kHz top for the trumpet refer just to the fundamental frequency? That's around the famous high C of sopranos, btw.

However, the overtones for an instrument have to be considered, and I'd guess the trumpet has a lot of them in order to sound so piercing in those high notes. The first overtone (harmonic) of that top note would be 2 kHz, the second would be 3 kHz, the next 4 kHz (around the top note on the piano), the next 5 kHz, the next 6 Khz, etc. For a piercing exaggeratiion, I would think of exaggerated harmonics between the fundamental 1 kHz and 6 kHz, but not necessarily that high. Thus, I also tend to suspect the area of the tweeter-midrange interface. Do you still hear it if you cover only the tweeter's mouth to see what you hear from the midrange?

The muted trumpet would have an entirely different distribution of overtones. I have not seen a thorough discussion/analysis of these differences.

[Seadog]

Michael,

Carl answered the APT 200 / Crites tweeter question. Since I was not restricted to the K-77 hole size, I went with the APT 200 because it has better dispersion than the horn of the K-77 or Crites tweeter. Although rotating my K-77s to the vertical orientation helped somewhat.

My brother has Khorns with ALK Trackhorns, Deans crossovers, and the APT 200 tweeters. His center Cornwall has the Crites tweeter replacing the K-77, and his 3-channel stereo sound is seemless. Except for dispersion differences, the APT and the Crites tweeters will sound exactly the same (IMO). He is running VRDs and a Scott 130 preamp, and his setup is one of the best that I have heard (his room is very good also, which a BIG factor in the sound).

In my picture, clockwise from the lower left is the K-77 (mounted vertically), the APT 200, and the Beyma CP 25. I agree with Dean's impression when he wrote " ...I ended up preferring the Beyma too. It does the work of adding the top in without drawing attention to itself." In my case, it also may be that it matches better with the Altec mid horn. IMO the Beyma gives the sound "sparkle" (for lack of a better word) without competing with the midrange.

David

[cjgeraci]

Michael,

Carl answered the APT 200 / Crites tweeter question. Since I was not restricted to the K-77 hole size, I went with the APT 200 because it has better dispersion than the horn of the K-77 or Crites tweeter. Although rotating my K-77s to the vertical orientation helped somewhat.

My brother has Khorns with ALK Trackhorns, Deans crossovers, and the APT 200 tweeters. His center Cornwall has the Crites tweeter replacing the K-77, and his 3-channel stereo sound is seemless. Except for dispersion differnences, the APT and the Crites tweeters will sound exactly the same (IMO). He is running VRDs and a Scott 130 preamp, and his setup is one of the best that I have heard (his room is very good also, which a BIG factor in the sound).

In my picture, clockwise from the lower left is the K-77 (mounted vertically), the APT 200, and the Beyma CP 25. I agree with Dean's impression when he wrote " ...I ended up preferring the Beyma too. It does the work of adding the top in without drawing attention to itself." In my case, it also may be that it matches better with the Altec mid horn. IMO the Beyma gives the sound "sparkle" (for lack of a better word) without competing with the midrange.

David

Good point about the Beyma / Altec synergy. Last year I ran three-way Altec Valencias in the rear with an 806a/Beyma combo (then 811s) that was outstanding. The Beymas seem to match nicely with the softer Altec drivers. I kept that combo in the rear even after moving my Belles to the rear (and transfering Altec drivers to Belle land) until recently when Sheltie Dave graciously loaned my some Eminence tweeters to try a match for the rear (5 Eminence tweeters in surround is outstanding). But, now I have some big a*& 511s in the rear with nice Altec drivers so the Beymas may return as my rear tweeters.

I agree that running Eminence tweeters at full volume - they can certainly draw attention to themselves. They seem to match pretty well with K55s - - but I think you really need serious attenuation so that they also do their job without drawing attention to themselves. Even running the Eminence in the rear with the Belles - I have them seriously attentuated. I cannot imagine running the Eminence on a regular basis without attenuating them some.

Carl.