Question for Bodcaw Boy (Roy)

[edwinr]

That's apparently correct about special order bass bins. Roy (again) has indicated special orders are not necessarily against policy. It would be nice, though, if Klipsch were able to engineer a dress arrangement for the mid/treble horn. I reckon a domestic version of the Jubilee, even if only a special order option, would make a nice flagship statement...

[ClaudeJ1]

i'll get right on it poo poo!!

have a blessed day

roy "dentures" delgado

ps i have to take ambien because i worry about collapsing verticals but now since you say not to worry about it, i can just count horns and fall asleep, no problem!!

Well, your sense of humor certainly hasn't collapsed. I find this wickedly funny. Thanks for the laugh and the info.

[ClaudeJ1]

The K-403 is the horn for the true home Jubilee. It's the one PWK used for his own speaker. Wooden ones were deemed too expensive and of uneven quality by Klipsch, so they made some black fiberglass ones.

actually.....no....poo poo,

the 403 original horns, to see if they would work, were made out of fiberglass as were all our horns that we were prototyping. we decided to go wood in order to show the horn "naked" on top of the lf. biggest deviation between the 510/402 and 403 was that the 403 had collapsing vertical polar patterns and controlled horizontal polar patterns while the 510/402 had both vertical and horizontal polar patterns be controlled.

have a blessed day,

roy delgado

If understand this correctly, this means that with higher frequency, the "beamwidth" for lack of a better layman's term, gets narrower in the vertical but is maintaned in the horizontal. This would appear to be a good design choice (trade-off?) to get a smaller, more aesthetically pleasing, yet still good sounding, horn, right? Since the 402 is being used behind a screen (it's design intent) then bigger is better and aesthetics be damned, it's the performance........................................am I on the right track here?

[Deang]

I've yet to run into anyone in this sweet old world who worried about "collapsing vertical polar patterns" so how important could it be?

Pretty important actually, and explains why it never became a production item. Exponential throat expanding into a conical? Maybe close to something like the old K-5-J? I would have paid extra to get rid of it.

All Klipsch now needs to do is get some K-403 horns manufactured, build a top to enclose it like the Khorn top, commission Al K. to design some crossover networks for it, veneer the front, and you've got a true home Jubilee.

All you need to do is get out the Checkbook. Why not put your money where your beak is. C'mon man, lead the way, show us all how it's done.

[3dzapper]

i'll get right on it poo poo!!

have a blessed day

roy "dentures" delgado

ps i have to take ambien because i worry about collapsing verticals but now since you say not to worry about it, i can just count horns and fall asleep, no problem!!

I've heard of sleep drivers with Ambien. It's a good thing that cars have collapsable columns and inflatable bubbles in case you roll-off the road.

Roy, Is this you in your younger days?

[Parrot]

If understand this correctly, this means that with higher frequency, the "beamwidth" for lack of a better layman's term, gets narrower in the vertical but is maintaned in the horizontal. This would appear to be a good design choice (trade-off?) to get a smaller, more aesthetically pleasing, yet still good sounding, horn, right? Since the 402 is being used behind a screen (it's design intent) then bigger is better and aesthetics be damned, it's the performance........................................am I on the right track here?

Sounds reasonable to me. To know if it really is an issue or not, it'd be interesting to know whether all Klipsch Heritage has "collapsing vertical polar patterns."

Considering that PWK used the K-403, it warrants consideration. He could have had a 6-foot square high frequency horn if he wanted to, but he chose one that made sense in a home.

[Parrot]

All you need to do is get out the Checkbook. Why not put your money where your beak is. C'mon man, lead the way, show us all how it's done.

No, I want lots of other people buying home Jubilees, and then in twenty years or so, maybe I can save a few bucks and buy a pair on eBay.

[ClaudeJ1]

I've yet to run into anyone in this sweet old world who worried about "collapsing vertical polar patterns" so how important could it be?

Pretty important actually, and explains why it never became a production item. Exponential throat expanding into a conical? Maybe close to something like the old K-J-5? I would have paid extra to get rid of it.

I have read here that you have sold your Khorns and have ordered some Jubilees, so YOU have definitely put your checkbook where it counts. Are you saying that you have paid extra to get rid of a vertical polar pattern, meaning you would have paid extra to get the 403 horn, if it were available? Form the photos, the huge 402 looks like a conical horn with a Tractrix flare at the end, is that what you are talking about? I thought the old K-5-J was the one that PWK claimed copied into metal and just added the sectionals. That was a radial exponential horn, right? Did that one have a collapsing vertical polar pattern?

[sfogg]

"I've yet to run into anyone in this sweet old world who worried about "collapsing vertical polar patterns" so how important could it be?"

You either don't get out much, or spend too much time squawking and not enough time listening.

Many are concerned by polar response. Horns have been designed to try and improve polar response (both horizontal and vertical) for 60+ years.....

Shawn

[Parrot]

Since you have nothing better to do, why don't you post the vertical polar responses for all Klipsch Heritage speakers, and overlay them on the K-510 and K-402? Thanks in advance.

I have this funny preference of listening to music instead of pink noise and test tones, but to each his own.

[Deang]

To know if it really is an issue or not, it'd be interesting to know whether all Klipsch Heritage has "collapsing vertical polar patterns."

Well now, if you don't know the answer to that question you shouldn't be telling Roy Delgado what horns he should be using. The K-401 off-axis energy decreases with increasing frequency on both planes, this means it would have collapsing vertical and horizontal polar patterns.

Considering that PWK used the K-403, it warrants consideration. He could have had a 6-foot square high frequency horn if he wanted to, but he chose one that made sense in a home.

Why the fixation on the K-402? Jubilees are also available using the K-510 -- a horn that PK heard and liked but wanted "something bigger". Uh, I guess Roy decided to make something bigger.

[Parrot]

Well now, if you don't know the answer to that question you shouldn't be telling Roy Delgado what horns he should be using.

Actually, I do know the answer, just like I knew the answer to my central K-402 question. I'm just putting them out there to enlighten the non-Kool-Aid drinkers.

[sfogg]

" Since you have nothing better to do"

ROFLMAO, that is rich....

"why don't you post the vertical polar responses for all Klipsch Heritage speakers, and overlay them on the K-510 and K-402?"

What is the point? If I wanted that sound I wouldn't have modified my LaScalas.

You might want to check out the polars of the 'newer' Heritages though. Those with the Tractrix horns in them. That Klipsch article from 10 or 15 years ago seemed to suggested that the horns in those were more like the K510/K402 then the earlier exponentials in the older Heritages.

Besides, what I responded to was:

"I've yet to run into anyone in this sweet old world who worried about "collapsing vertical polar patterns" so how important could it be?"[/]

And like I said.... if you have never 'run into anyone... worried about "collapsing vertical polar patterns"' either you do not get out much or just have not been paying attention. There are numerous people in this very thread concerned about that along with *many many* others. It is only news to you....

Shawn

[ClaudeJ1]

Everyone here seems to be upgrading their Heritage speakers to Tractrix horns (present in all the current Klipsch lines), but it seems there is too small of a market to justify their existence in the home market in the USA. It would also not make sense to upgrade the vererable Khorn with such a large horn 402 vs. 401 horn (low WAF), which doesn't matter behind a theater screen or in my basement, which my wife respects as my domain. I don't want to try and re-invent the wheel if a PWK disciple (Roy) has already done all the R&D for a PWK aproved horn. and all I have to do is bolt it onto an existing device in my arsenal. Even if I were to make my own out of wood, I don't have instruments to measure it.

Not sure what you mean by "Everyone here"--hardly more than a few have gone that route. They just post far more frequently than the thousands who keep things stock.

"PWK approved horn" is not correct. PWK never even saw the 402, let alone heard it. He used the 403 in his public demo of the Jubilees, and had the 403 in his own home. Unfortunately PWK became too infirm and eventually died before the Jubilee top was completed to his satisfaction. What is available from the factory is the Jubilee low frequency bin, which was the big deal to PWK anyway, and your choice of either the 510 or 402 from Klipsch for higher frequencies, or some other non-Klipsch configuration of your own choice. The Jubilee as it exists today should be viewed as a tinkerer's speaker (because of the top and lack of aesthetics), and not a finished, home product. Better heard and not seen, it is something that calls for the purchaser's active involvement, rather than a speaker you can just relax and forget about as you enjoy the music.

Well I didn't know the 402 was designed after the 403 was designed. I actually was at Ceasar's Palace for a photo convention, which was, co-incidentally at the tail end of the CES show that year. in Jan. 1999. I was pleasantly surprised to see Klispsh sign in the Hallway and walked in. I think I met Roy, but I'm not sure it was him, certainly looked like the guy in PWK's biography. Anyway I had been to PWK's house in 1985 and I wanted to say hi and see if he remembered me, but I missed him by 10 minutes. I saw the Jubilees there and they looked gorgeous. I'm assuming that's when the photo of Paul with the Jubs was taken, but I digress.

Of course I was referring to only those people on the forum that upgrade they Khorn tops and not the guys who just listen to stock units. So, "everyone" implied everyone that does top end tweaks only not those other guys. It seems to me that Altec 511B's are only marginally better than K400/401's and that everyone that goes to the trouble of doing that end up with Trachorns anyhow. I'm not looking for an argument either way. I have live with my stock 1977 Khorns for 30 years and this group got me thinking about upgrades. So far, so good.

So I got some free audio grade capacitors from a friend whose son is an audio engineers and I'm recapping all 3 AA's on my fronts. I'm also building a self-contained walnut boxes (from the front faces of old desk drawers) to match the Walnut on my K's to house a Xover designed by John Warren for my JBL 2404's, which will sit above my disconnected T-35's. They are too bright the way they sit now with the AA tweeter section going direct so that will be the next incremental improvent with an eye for a future mid Horn for my DH1a's.

The mids are a more expensive and laborious proposition vs. the tweeter upgrade that's for sure. I don't want to do it twice.

[ClaudeJ1]

Considering that PWK used the K-403, it warrants consideration. He could have had a 6-foot square high frequency horn if he wanted to, but he chose one that made sense in a home.

Why the fixation on the K-402? Jubilees are also available using the K-510 -- a horn that PK heard and liked but wanted "something bigger". Uh, I guess Roy decided to make something bigger.

Yeah, well, why be a wimp about it, if size is not and issue then one should go for maximum perfomance. Bigger is ususally better when it comes to horns it seems.

[Deang]

Are you saying that you have paid extra to get rid of a vertical polar pattern, meaning you would have paid extra to get the 403 horn ...

No, what I'm saying is that the K-403 isn't something I would be interested in at this point -- I would have paid extra to have it removed and something else put in its place. I want an even power response into the room. Also, all of these bass bins are splayed, and I would think the distribution of energy in the vertical plane to be fairly important. Something else to keep in mind is that the K-403 was designed to work with one of the older B&C drivers, something that would have required significantly more EQ boost than the K-69-K. With a driver like the B&C they used in the early prototypes, something like the K-403 makes sense. With the new driver it's moot.

From the photos, the huge 402 looks like a conical horn with a Tractrix flare at the end, is that what you are talking about? I thought the old K-5-J was the one that PWK claimed copied into metal and just added the sectionals. That was a radial exponential horn, right? Did that one have a collapsing vertical polar pattern?

When Roy said the K-403 collapsed the vertical, it made me think of something I'd read in an old Don Keele patent. My point was that the K-403 is not a CD horn, probably more exponential than tractrix, and the way things currently stand -- more like a step backwards.

[Mike Lindsey]

It seems to me that Altec 511B's are only marginally better than K400/401's and that everyone that goes to the trouble of doing that end up with Trachorns anyhow.

Not sure where you are getting this information from but they are far from marginally better. I think the reason they end up going with the Trachorns is because they can be hidden much easier in the enclosure, and Al sells the top hats to go with them.

Mike

[Deang]

The 511B is an exponential horn, and like all exponentials suffers from the same problem -- irregular launching of the wavefront from the mouth of the horn. Ideally, you want the launch to be as smooth as possible -- like the way a bubble leaves a bubble wand. I think the 511B sounds better to some people primarily because of its larger throat. Al's Trachorn has the bigger throat and the tractrix flare. The improvement is not subtle.

[jwc]

Dean. Did you try a pair of 511's in your Khorns? I don't remember you making a comparison.

I like your explaination above in principle, but principle can fall short of results at times. I have NOT heard a pair of trachorns. I owe it to myself as something I should do. It is interesting that ALK has been careful with his words comparing his Trachorn with the 511b. I've never really heard him come out and say his Trachorn was better than the 511.

jc

[Parrot]

Better can mean better specs, an objective measurement. Preferable is a different matter, and is subjective. I preferred the stock horn and tweeter on La Scalas when I heard them, as opposed to Al K.'s trachorn and a fancy tweeter. I wasn't the only one, either. The aftermarket stuff sounded fine, and I'd be happy enough with it, but I preferred the factory stock items.