UPS Problems

[jcmusic]

I recieved an item that I bought on A-gon, it was damaged. What are my options? I have contacted the seller he opened a claim, they told him it would be 3-4 weeks before an inspection could be done. Do I have any other course of action if UPS refuses to pay. There is always the possibility that the seller shipped it damaged just trying to get rid of it. He had good feedback that's why I went ahead with the purchase. Advice opinions and what not please, thanks .

Jay

[Groomlakearea51]

That does not sound right... at all!! Per my UPS store, someone should be there within 7 days. You can also call UPS. That's 1-800-742-5877; When you go through the menu, dial "0"; When they protest that, dial "0" again; Do this until a person talks to you. Usually you only have to dial "0" twice. Tell them the SBT (sad but true) story and have the shipping label handy. You might find that the seller has not filed a claim (yet).... Hope that helps.

[Audible Nectar]

Usually the onus is on the sender (insurer) to follow through with the claim (which means showing UPS that it was packed properly and that the damage is UPS's fault). If the shipper has no luck on the damage claim, you are generally out of luck. This is where you find out how good your seller is.

UPS (Ungainly Package Smashers) and FedUp are the biggest impediments to this hobby for me. If I have an expensive piece of gear (like a vintage Mac) that needs to go somewhere, NO WAY will I allow these gorillas to handle it. I will personally deliver it to where it needs to go - like my McIntosh MX-110 which I am hand delivering to Craig this week. I have my own form of shipping insurance - ME.

If you ship a unit (ESPECIALLY a heavy item) with UPS/FedUp, you are GAMBLING.

What the world needs is a shipping company that can reliably deliver these type of goods without breakage. I wouldn't care if it took two weeks to deliver it, as long as it got there undamaged. As you can probably tell, I've had too much personal experience with these knuckleheads beating on my (and friends) gear to trust them touching them anymore.

[Groomlakearea51]

I guess I'm very lucky. My local UPS store is great; I've shipped many "high end" items and only had one damage claim (at the other end...). The owner works directly with me on each item that's leaving; we discuss how to pack it, options on packing, etc. Then again, I only use new boxes, good condition bubble wrap, styro peanuts, foam board, etc. It's a shame that other services/stores apparently don't seem to care, or assist the customers. I'm lucky, as I said, we're a small community, the owner is a friend of mine and we used to work together before he went into business for himself.

[stormin]

I recieved an item that I bought on A-gon, it was damaged. What are my options? I have contacted the seller he opened a claim, they told him it would be 3-4 weeks before an inspection could be done. Do I have any other course of action if UPS refuses to pay. There is always the possibility that the seller shipped it damaged just trying to get rid of it. He had good feedback that's why I went ahead with the purchase. Advice opinions and what not please, thanks .

Jay

Sorry to say but you are at the mercy of the seller. It should only take a maximum of 7 days before UPS is out to inspect the package.

It appears the seller is not being forthcoming with you. I would recommend being as nice to seller as possible and asking if he/she could help as much as possible with speeding up the process for you. Then when settlement is made it will be in form of a check to the seller and he will be the one who needs to reimburse you.

Damaged shipments are never any fun.

Hope things work out for you.

[Audible Nectar]

I guess I'm very lucky.

I must not be.

Lessee....I have had two items almost destroyed in the last year. Both happened to belong to a friend of mine - a JM Peach, and a VRD that needed a minor service. The VRD was a particular mess - the top chassis smashed down into the base, breaking away the mounts and nearly destroying the entire amplifier. IMO, FedUp SHOULD HAVE REPLACED this unit. Thanks to Craig, he restored it to new condition.....but what if it's a McIntosh MC-30? It's GONE. And I would be lucky to see 25% of it's real value.

Both of these above damaged items were in ORIGINAL factory packaging, and they still did thier best to damage them. Another interesting point is that neither of these boxes had a HINT of outside damage - had you seen the boxes on delivery, you would have bet the innards were in perfect condition. It's a really neat trick to destroy a unit with no evidence of that from the outside.

I also have much less tolerance for screw-ups, because I have much more to lose as a percentage of income. For the doctors, lawyers, businesspersons, and others who make well into the six figures, they can afford to take shipping risks. I can't. I bust my arse to be able to afford these gears (foodservice is earning it the hard way), and cannot afford to buy them again. It's again, like gambling: if you can afford to lose, by all means ship for convenience. If you cannot afford to lose, don't hand your gear to UPS and FedUp. I don't care how you pack it, it's still a gamble.

If you need further support for my position, I suggest you read this AK thread. Understand what you are dealing with.

http://audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=95860

[ttrhp]

Jay,

UPS should come out to inspect the package within the next 7 days,and if they accept fault.The check should be cut within 3-4 weeks.

[joessportster]

been here several times in the past and heres how it works

1 save all packing materials, 2 call ups and tell them it is unacceptable to wait 2 weeks for the inspection, they will either come out and inspect the item and packing leaving the item with you or they will take the item and packing with them for inspection (this is your call, which way you want the inspection to go), 3 the shipper has to initiate the claim, and after it is inspected ups will determine if the item was properly packed(if he used foam or peanuts chances are they will say it was good packing) if they agree packing was sufficient they will ask for proof of value. once this is submitted and accepted usually takes a couple weeks for the shipper to get the check (shipper will get the refund not you), then you have to deal with the seller/shipper about getting your money back and whether he/she will want the item returned

whole process can take 4 to 6 weeks or longer depending on wether seller/shipper stays on top of them

good luck

Joe

[SilverSport]

I bought a pair of speakers off of Agon..packed, insured (sure they were) and sent by UPS store...delivered damaged beyond repair...UPS picked them right back up within about two days (time to contact seller and set in motion)...NOW...you are at the mercy of the seller...UPS will no longer talk to you about anything...they deal only with the insurer/sender...I have come to find out that mine were not insured...as the pay out appears to be what UPS gives for their basic insurance...THEN, I never received any monies from the sender...he has gone off the grid...Agon is NO HELP AT ALL...unless you want to pay them money (I believe it was $100) and thank goodness I am only out $180 bux...I filled out all the information for Agon to do their look into this...after not hearin"claim" and they said they no longer mediate claims...I have had bad luck with Agon (two of the 4 items I bought were not as stated and t

[Fish]

If you paid with a credit card you should have option, if not .......I've never in my many years dealing with ups had any problem,even sending LARGE Klipsch across country.I got a fed ex box a few days ago,wet and smashed,as they often are.

[mas]

I can appreciate everyone's frustration.

And this will not minimize the frustration or the loss that has been incurred. But it just might save someone some trouble in the future.

But folks, if you are purchasing anything that you cannot afford to eat the loss on, this can all easily and completely be avoided and remedied by using www.escrow.com as the intermediary in the transaction.

It provides for the buyer to inspect merchandise before accepting it, and it protects the seller from someone simply running off as well.

I have posted about this before, but rather than do it again, if anyone is curious, PM me.

BTW, this protects BOTH seller and buyer, and it prevents either side from running a scam.

Oh, and another IMPORTANT point of which you should all be aware...

First, ONLY the actual shipper has standing with UPS. Everyone else is a spectator. Albeit perhaps a very agitated one as y9ou jump up and down and yell.

But, just because you ship via UPS does NOT mean you are insured by UPS, even if you pay for it!

What???How can he say that???

Easy.

Most do not go to the UPS hub and ship their package directly via UPS. Most people go to a UPS agent, be it an independently owned UPS Store or and agent such as Office Depot. And they are convenient.

BUT, unless you have a relationship like Marshall does that transcends the legal relationship, you are not entering into a contractual agreement with UPS.

Instead you are entering into a contractual agreement with the agent, who then becomes the official shipper as far as UPS is concerned. And again, if a problem arises, you are stuck dealing with the AGENT. You will again have NO STANDING with UPS! And how many of you have read the EULA and method of settling disputes employed by these agents. I am guessing No One! You just may be surprised to know that most are not obliged to simply provide you with the settlement that UPS may provide. In fact, some are not even obliged to buy the amount of insurance with UPS that you thought you were paying when you filled out the form!

So you have 3 choices.

1. Perhaps the best option if you can do it... Establish a commercial account with UPS. You can then issue pickup orders and contract to be the shipper of your own package from the seller.

2. Deal directly with UPS if you choose to use them as a shipper. And PLEASE be aware of the process by which packages are actually handled. So many complain about the handling of fragile Heavy electronics or of Fragile over sized objects like speakers. Well, you need to become aware of exactly how the packages are handled and processed. No one at UPS is intentionally mishandling your packages! But the problem is that YOU are making erroneous assumptions!

Yeah, now get upset. Ask anyone who has worked in a hub unloading the trucks, sorting or charging or loading the trucks. But boxes of Grandma's cookies are shipped right along with the engine blocks. And they all go down the same charging slides, one right after the other. Oh, and the "FRAGILE" pointed in fancy old world calligraphy in the side of the box??? Explain that to the engine block. Unfortunately they do not read very well.

It is YOUR responsibility to pack your product in anticipation of this! And no, Styrofoam peanuts generally won't do it! I would suggest double boxing (allowing at least 3-4 inches of space between ALL surfaces- sides and top and bottom - for punctures and a crumple zone) and using expandable foam in both boxes (put your gear in a double trash bag first!). Oh, and include a complete manifest with ALL of the shipper and receiver's complete contact info inside the most inner packaging. It is amazing how much time is spent by folks in the hubs simply trying to match and figure out to whom or where a piece of gear gear belongs that has burst its shipping container.

And if it is odd sized or exceptionally heavy, figure if a 19 year old college kid in a hurry (as they are by necessity!) can easily handle it. If not, what can YOU do to minimize the problem or the damage if they have difficulty lifting it over their head.

3. Or, better yet, consider using a trucking service and insisting that your package be top loaded. Or a containerized shipping service where your package is containerized. There are quite a few. Not only are they equipped and used to handling such packages, they are dealt with individually.

And if you are simply confused about this, again, PM me. 'We' have experience shipping this type of stuff for over 30 years and we don't have any problems simply because experience has taught us how to avoid having extremely expensive, very sensitive, and often very heavy materials lost or damaged (and 'stereo equipment' is the 'tiny' stuff - in weight, value and sensitivity to damage - in this).

Is any of this too much of a hassle? Well, it isn't for me. But you can answer it best. How much do es anyone enjoy settling claims? Would having taken 30 extra minutes, or perhaps spending of a few extra dollars (sometimes, sometimes not) be worth it to avoid the aggravation? I am guessing it is, unless so many folks simply enjoy venting their frustrations on the forum.

Please be smart and avoid the problems up front instead of trying to settle claims!

[meagain]

Canyon - It sounds like your seller insured it and is taking steps. The only thing wrong with what you posted is the time it takes UPS to come out to pick up the item and/or inspect it. Maybe that number got translated wrong or he misunderstood, but it sounds like this will be OK? What will likely happen (in my experience with shipping) is UPS will probably say the item wasn't packaged properly or to their specifications for safety. If they do this, you have to appeal. I've never not had them come through on a claim.

Did the seller package it well in your opinion? You're supposed to keep the packaging so they can see it. If it wasn't packaged well, and you want to ensure a good outcome.... and twisting the truth isn't a line cross for you.... you can always add some bubble wrap or an extra inner cardboard/foam pieces to the pile. I'm not condoneing this mind you - just throwing it out there.

Mas - I've never done escrow. I'm hopeing to not have to buy more gear, but I've never fully learned about it.... Is it a hassle?

[oscarsear]

I've purchased 2 items lately that arrived damaged.  Both were not due to the shipper but the manner in which they were packaged.  People do not understand how to pack stuff for gorillas to handle.  A-gon and other such outfits should devise somekind of packaging guidleines to assist sellers with packing.  When I ship I pack it like is was headed to mars in a bumper car.  I always use a new box.  I tell the shipper the box is new and I note it on the shipping forms.  I tell the buyer the box is new.  I require a live signature and I tell the buyer to inspect that new box for ANY cuts, crunches, etc.... and note them with the delivery people.  If bad I ask that they photograph the box before opening and while opening if possible.  Nothing I send anyone is going to get damaged and not be fully covered.

[Daddy Dee]

I hope your result is good. On the couple of occasions I've had bad luck with this, would not be encouraging. I have seen a couple of folks posting decent results from similar predicaments. Hope to hear good results for you.

[mas]

I've never done escrow. Is it a hassle?

No!

And I would dare say that the 30 minutes it takes is a dare sight easier and certainly less stressful than the fun incurred in either a shipping dispute or a scam.

Also, you get to examine the equipment and determine if it is as represented. And that is simply the baseline. You can negotiate any time period or terms that are agreeable to both parties. but you spell them out specifically. There is NO he said - she said nonsense.

If the terms are met and both agree, the funds are transfered. If the terms are not met, the funds are returned. With specific verifiable steps used to assure each step of the way. But, as mentioned, you can negotiate just about any terms you deem reasonable. It is a very simple process. And as mentioned, it protects ALL parties. This is NOT the method to use if you are shipping marginal or questionable equipment. Use Paypal and UPS for that.

In fact, there is quite an industry on EBay doing exactly that. Shoddy, damaged or defective equipment is shipped insured - often for the full value. Once received a claim is made and the shipper collects the full insured value and pays (or not) the buyer what they paid, often pocketing a nice chunk of change in the form of the difference. I.E. Shipper insures a 3 year old copier for $300 (that was originally valued list at $500) that sold on EBay for $85. Surprise, the copier arrives damaged with a few pieces and parts broken in the container and packed with 2 inches of Styrofoam peanuts. The buyer gets his $85 and the seller has just made $215 on a copier that would not have sold for anything more than parts if examined first hand.

[mas]

I love the attacks on the folks at UPS. "Gorillas" indeed. They are. for the most part. overworked college age kids who put in a full days work in a 4 hour shift where one person unloads 3-5 FULL sized semi-trailers by themselves - and that includes in mid July with no air conditioning. All while a supervisor stands there and yells at them to "hurry up" and the Teamsters '(who really look after those kids...right) response is that "if someone yells at them, that they usually yell back." Now there's a solution!

Yup, those kids' existence is just made by destroying your package! Of course, no one asks why Apple or Dell or the major electronics firms do not use UPS. Is it because they hate UPS? No! Its because they don't delude themselves into thinking that just by "believing" that since they are only aware of FedEx or UPS that they are the only options for shipping fragile and expensive gear!

Isn't the common definition of insanity doing the same thing over and over and expecting the outcome to be different?

If that is valid, stop and think for a second about what this complaint about UPS and FedEx is really all about!

What do they say, you can pay me now or pay me later. Well, in this case, you can discover how others do it and avoid the hassle, or we can continue to read these posts! But what is a bit frustrating is these alternatives have not become the norm! I mean, I wonder....has anyone had problems with the common carriers before? And how do others avoid it? Nah....let's just blame the kids working there. Its a conspiracy...

So let's keep doing the same thing the same way and being surprised.

But wouldn't it be a refreshing change to stop and to figure out how to do it differently in order to avoid the problems to begin with?

[meagain]

I've been doing Ebay for years, shipping all kinds of items including 40 pound glass fireplace screens. I love UPS. They've always come through for me. The people that pick up here seem in their 30's. I switched to FedEx once. This lasted mere days as it was a disaster of monumental proportions for me. But I do find despite even manufacturer's packaging designed for shipping (new sealed boxes).... they always seem to say the damage was caused by shipper's poor packaging. Seems almost like a standard response which takes one phone call to fix.

I bought 2 preamps off Audiogon and both used a boatload of hard foam insulation and double boxed - arrived pristine. One has to ask specifically how things will be packaged then hope they take suggestions well if it's lacking. It's a matter of due dilligence.

[jcmusic]

I want to thank everyone for their support on this issue that I am having. Reading the replies has helped me to understand a little better about what the shipping buisness is all about. I have bought and sold all kinds of items from internet services, and have had only a couple shipping problems. Twice with Fedex both times the made good on them, I was completely satisfied. I sure hope this one turns out, this one will be costly if not. The seller in my opinion is doing all he can to help, I just hope that he gets results.

Jay