plissken99 Posted May 18, 2007 Share Posted May 18, 2007 I have RF-7 mains, RS-7 surrounds and the RC-7 center(SVS PB-2 sub), all are driven currently by the Denon 3806, which has 7.1 pre outs. I've heard seperate amps are the way to go. Basically, what kind of improvement would good seperates bring to the table? Right now my system already sounds amazing, so it's hard to imagine it sounding any better(but thats what I've said before a few audio upgrades). Even going from the 3805 to the 3806, the improved room eq calibration was mind blowing. Also, what are some good seperate amps to look at? I figure if I do this, may as well match or do better than the speakers wattage rating. So I'm thinking like 200-250 watts per channel per channel? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jacksonbart Posted May 18, 2007 Share Posted May 18, 2007 Look at Crown or QSC for solid state, if you go that route you can use the denon as a preamp/processor and eventually upgrade from thier to a seperate one. In my limited experiance, the processing on today's higher end recievers offer good dollar to performance ratio, so its hard for me to justify the extra $$ for a seperate processor, but I am sure many here can recommend a specific model. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
plissken99 Posted May 18, 2007 Author Share Posted May 18, 2007 Oh I would definitly want to use the Denon as the pre-amp/processor, love it's capabilities and it has outs for seperates. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldtimer Posted May 18, 2007 Share Posted May 18, 2007 No one here has ever not recommended separates for those with the budget, especially for RF-7's, which seem to really shine with quality amplification. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
plissken99 Posted May 18, 2007 Author Share Posted May 18, 2007 Ok, hopefully someone will say how seperates enhance the sound. Meanwhile, as a baseline, looking at Crown amps, something like this is what I'm going for. http://www.djdeals.com/crownXLS402D.htm, thats 300w per channel. $300 per 2 channels doesn't seem all that outrageous. Is there anything in that range better than the above? Also, should I get an amp for the rear speakers in a 7.1 set up, or just let the reciever drive those? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daddy Dee Posted May 18, 2007 Share Posted May 18, 2007 Dusty, My take on HT: if you are already pleased with the sound, it is most likely that seperates would yield only a marginal "improvement" if it was noticeable at all. Whether that small margin is worth the bucks, that's a subjective call. It is not a bang for the buck champ by any measure, IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skonopa Posted May 19, 2007 Share Posted May 19, 2007 I have RF-7 mains, RS-7 surrounds and the RC-7 center(SVS PB-2 sub), all are driven currently by the Denon 3806, which has 7.1 pre outs. I've heard seperate amps are the way to go. Basically, what kind of improvement would good seperates bring to the table? Right now my system already sounds amazing, so it's hard to imagine it sounding any better(but thats what I've said before a few audio upgrades). Even going from the 3805 to the 3806, the improved room eq calibration was mind blowing. Also, what are some good seperate amps to look at? I figure if I do this, may as well match or do better than the speakers wattage rating. So I'm thinking like 200-250 watts per channel per channel? Well, from personal experience, I have a Denon AVR-3802 (which is the old version of what you currently have) and I added a B&K Reference 200.7 7-channel amplifier at 200 watts per channel. The difference was very immediate! The clarity and dynamics really improved! I was blown away, not only that but the bass seemed so much tighter and stronger as well. I am glad that I went and did it, but at the time, it was not cheap (I paid something like $3,000 for that amp!) Even to this day, whenever I listen to it, it still brings a smile to my face. I would recommend at least giving it a try if at all possible. You certainly wont "hurt" anything, and you may be very surprised at just how much better your whole rig sounds. As far as recommendations, I'd say all the usual suspects such as B&K (which I have), Rotel, Sunfire, and Parasound seems to get a lot of recommendations around here. The Crown and QSC as mentioned would make for a very economical solution as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boom3 Posted May 19, 2007 Share Posted May 19, 2007 We have a Yamaha RX2500 receiver and it certainly has enough power for the for Cornwalls and the homemade center...but I don't think the power amps are all that clean. I have a Sumo Polaris amp in my 2nd system that I think is much cleaner. The Polaris went out of production 20+ years ago, alas. I've been thinking about separate power amps. We have a powered subwoofer, a Cambridge I think which has tamed some of the boominess of the Corns. Just a question here...are there any decent, stable tube amps that are (a) less than $500 each that ( put out enough power to push the four Corns and the Klipsch-derived center? And, if I got 5 tube amps hooked up to the system, what I am in for in the way of balancing outputs, not to mention maintenance? I am a former tech so I know about bias and can use a soldering iron if necessary. thanks... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrPyro Posted May 19, 2007 Share Posted May 19, 2007 There are some important considerations to make when deciding to go to seperates. Geneally, you get better DACs (cleaner, more detailed, less noise) and better amps when using seperates, but naturally, they can cost much more. The MAJOR problem with seperates is that they tend to be atleast 1 year (or more) behind in technology compared to recievers. There are only a few pre/pros that have HDMI and that is only ver 1.1 or 1.2 if your lucky, while many recievers are coming out now with ver 1.3, plus some of the newest recievers can decode the audio formats from Bluray and HDDVD disks. I'm not positive, but i do not believe ANY pre/pro has the ability to do room EQ. So you have to decide what features are important. I would suggest if you are happy with the sound...don't upgrade... -Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dkp Posted May 19, 2007 Share Posted May 19, 2007 I have RF-7 mains, RS-7 surrounds and the RC-7 center(SVS PB-2 sub), all are driven currently by the Denon 3806, which has 7.1 pre outs. I've heard seperate amps are the way to go. Basically, what kind of improvement would good seperates bring to the table? Right now my system already sounds amazing, so it's hard to imagine it sounding any better(but thats what I've said before a few audio upgrades). Even going from the 3805 to the 3806, the improved room eq calibration was mind blowing. Also, what are some good seperate amps to look at? I figure if I do this, may as well match or do better than the speakers wattage rating. So I'm thinking like 200-250 watts per channel per channel? Well, from personal experience, I have a Denon AVR-3802 (which is the old version of what you currently have) and I added a B&K Reference 200.7 7-channel amplifier at 200 watts per channel. The difference was very immediate! The clarity and dynamics really improved! I was blown away, not only that but the bass seemed so much tighter and stronger as well. I am glad that I went and did it, but at the time, it was not cheap (I paid something like $3,000 for that amp!) Even to this day, whenever I listen to it, it still brings a smile to my face. I would recommend at least giving it a try if at all possible. You certainly wont "hurt" anything, and you may be very surprised at just how much better your whole rig sounds. As far as recommendations, I'd say all the usual suspects such as B&K (which I have), Rotel, Sunfire, and Parasound seems to get a lot of recommendations around here. The Crown and QSC as mentioned would make for a very economical solution as well. I agree with this 100%. My experience has been nearly identical. -David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
plissken99 Posted May 19, 2007 Author Share Posted May 19, 2007 There are some important considerations to make when deciding to go to seperates. Geneally, you get better DACs (cleaner, more detailed, less noise) and better amps when using seperates, but naturally, they can cost much more. The MAJOR problem with seperates is that they tend to be atleast 1 year (or more) behind in technology compared to recievers. There are only a few pre/pros that have HDMI and that is only ver 1.1 or 1.2 if your lucky, while many recievers are coming out now with ver 1.3, plus some of the newest recievers can decode the audio formats from Bluray and HDDVD disks. I'm not positive, but i do not believe ANY pre/pro has the ability to do room EQ. So you have to decide what features are important. I would suggest if you are happy with the sound...don't upgrade... -Dave Well this isn't really a problem since the Denon 3806 makes a great pre-amp. Also, I have a 7.1 system, would adding an amp for the rear channels make much difference? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j-malotky Posted May 19, 2007 Share Posted May 19, 2007 Separates are worth it but don't skimp on quality. Not all amps are created equal. My newest amp was build in 1978. I would put it up against any "modern" amp. Here is my HT rack. http://forums.klipsch.com/photos/the_klipsch_gallery/picture731580.aspxThe reason seprates work better is you get better separation. Since there are no shared components, power supplies, grounds, etc, there will be less channel bleed. This will create a more open better imaging sound quality. You have to watch out when you get too solid state power hungry. I am not a RF guy, but with Heritage, I would not go over 100 watts per channel with Heritage. With my heritage, I probably use 1 to 5 watts normally, and never go over 20 WPC so 100 is more than enough headroom. Paul once wrote that a dampening factor of 20 was about perfect. In modern high power amps, they are required to create such a high dampening factor to control the speaker. If you have a 300 watt amp and are only using 5-10 watts, it will not sound open, you need to push the amp to get it to perform. JM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
plissken99 Posted May 19, 2007 Author Share Posted May 19, 2007 Ah, so lots of wattage isn't really necissary or better? I notice all the Heritage stuff is 100w max continuous, where my reference speakers are all 200 to 250 max continuous. I almost wonder if I need to start a new thread for recommendations for my speakers. If the whole point of seperates is high quality, not high wattage(unless reference series requires more wattage), I'll have to research carefully. Tube amps would be awesome, but can they be had for under $500 at all? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boom3 Posted May 19, 2007 Share Posted May 19, 2007 Ah, so lots of wattage isn't really necissary or better? I notice all the Heritage stuff is 100w max continuous, where my reference speakers are all 200 to 250 max continuous. I almost wonder if I need to start a new thread for recommendations for my speakers. If the whole point of seperates is high quality, not high wattage(unless reference series requires more wattage), I'll have to research carefully. Tube amps would be awesome, but can they be had for under $500 at all? There are plenty of folks on the forum running Heritage with low-power amps, tube and SS, and they are very happy with that. The Heritage line is among the most efficient speakers ever made for home use, and 5 clean watts with the K-horn, LaScala or Belles is said to be enough. For the Corns (which I have) I would triple that and I prefer SS for direct radiator woofers. There are many here who believe a good tube amp and bass horns have a synergy (no pun intended) that is unbeatable. My question stemmed from my perception that the power amps of my Yammie (which is a fine receiver) are just not as clean as my personal reference, the Sumo. Maybe someday I can have three stereo maps connected to my receiver to get the clarity I seek, but right now it's a "someday" aspect of my HT and not a priority of my overall lifestyle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raist679 Posted May 19, 2007 Share Posted May 19, 2007 I recently sold my RF-7's to a Friend at work. He was also using the Denon 3806 receiver at the time. Later I coaxed him into buying a Emotiva MPS-1 to get a little more power. While I must say the difference I heard in the high end was nothing special you're speakers will most definitely come to life. The mid-bass and lower frequency's were highly accentuated in my opinion and gave the speaker a fuller, more complete sound. Something I did not think was possible. If you decide to get a new amplifier for these speakers you will not regret it or ever look back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted May 20, 2007 Share Posted May 20, 2007 Ok, hopefully someone will say how seperates enhance the sound. Meanwhile, as a baseline, looking at Crown amps, something like this is what I'm going for. http://www.djdeals.com/crownXLS402D.htm, thats 300w per channel. $300 per 2 channels doesn't seem all that outrageous. Is there anything in that range better than the above? Also, should I get an amp for the rear speakers in a 7.1 set up, or just let the reciever drive those? First, don't go with the Crown XLS series. They are decent amps, but not the most refined and the fans are extremely loud. I would power my mains with the 3806 before the 402. Heck, I own a 402 that I use for subwoofer duty and prefer the sound of my Denon AVR 3300... Going seperates is definitely a good approach though. You're going to notice most of the difference in the low level detail. The biggest improvement will be from more defined transients and a lower noise floor. Or we could get into a few more of the technical terms if you're intereseted... As far as suggestions, going with pro amps is certainly a good approach. The Crown D, K, Studio Reference, and XTi series seem to be popular for home use. There's also the QSC PLX (?) that everyone is raving about too. The biggest issue with the RF-7 is the very low impedance dip towards the bottom of its response. What you're looking for are amps with a high damping factor, which will keep the low impedance dip of the RF-7's from affecting the frequency response. Outlaw audio has gotten a lot of good reviews on the forum and elsewhere on the internet. Their 7705 amp might be right up your ally: http://www.outlawaudio.com/products/7075.html Or you might consider a pair of their monoblocks: http://www.outlawaudio.com/products/2200.html A big step up would be the Sunfire TGA amplifiers, which mate very well with Klipsch: http://www.sunfire.com/amp.htm I hope this helps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CECAA850 Posted May 20, 2007 Share Posted May 20, 2007 I just bought 4 of the xls 402's. The fans are LOUD. You can however change them out with a much quieter fan, which I have done. The fan mod dropped the fan noise 10dB less than the stock ones. The xls's are also rated ovet 500 watts at 2 ohms so they should handle those nasty impedance dips the RF7's have. Drwho, define "refined". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CECAA850 Posted May 20, 2007 Share Posted May 20, 2007 A long older thread but still active. http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=418666 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arky Posted May 20, 2007 Share Posted May 20, 2007 That thread is incredible. You get through it you win a prize. I'll save you guys the trouble, QSC or Crown. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted May 21, 2007 Share Posted May 21, 2007 I just bought 4 of the xls 402's. The fans are LOUD. You can however change them out with a much quieter fan, which I have done. The fan mod dropped the fan noise 10dB less than the stock ones. The xls's are also rated ovet 500 watts at 2 ohms so they should handle those nasty impedance dips the RF7's have. Drwho, define "refined". Refined would be the ability of an amp to articulate the lower level detail in music. The XLS series was designed to go loud for little money - which works well for the bargain shopper sound reinforcement gig, but not for music in the home. You've got the stereotypical grain of SS coupled with some other distortions and a masked noise floor. They certainly aren't bad amps (heck, I purchased one), but they're certainly not the epitomy of amplification for the price point either....unless of course you intend to play at 110dB levels - at which point the distortions in the speakers and room will be orders of magnitude worse (which is the region these amps were intended to operate in anyway). The XLS series is also annoying because they pop when being turned on/off unless you have the volume controls low. They also lack a lot of important power filtering and safety features to keep your speakers from blowing up. Nasties on the power grid quickly get translated to the speakers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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