So how bout them Jubs?

[DrWho]

Notice the part "from the mixer

"? that infers to me he's wondering what people who ACTUALLY heard them think, not a third party interpretation? Maybe I'm wrong?

I suppose technically someone can have indirect impressions concerning anything based on reviews from others...

Can I have impressions based on the type of listening I saw others doing? Never in my life have I seen so many people trying to find fault in something - it was like I was surrounded by insecure people the whole night...

[DrWho]

Real junk, I can't believe Klipsch is using it: Stereophile Class B Component (04/06) and Absolute Sound Editor's Choice (10/06).

Ok, now I'm confused...In all y'alls tube world fantasies, are the Cayin amps considered good or bad?

[DrWho]

I don't know how it is rated in the mags but the Cayin A88T sure sounded great in Hope on all the Heritage. I was surprised but I still hate how they look.

I actually didn't like the sound at all in Hope, but I blaimed it on the room. The 60th's had a much more natural sound in Indy - the only real reason I don't like that amp now is merely out of principal (I'm always right and I say I always prefer SS) []

I suppose that's a good thing from your perspective because it only gets better... []

[DrWho]

You would probably be interested to know that the Jubilees sounded better at the mixer than your frankenscalas did at AKFest....just some food for thought as you go about "relaying" more information.

For that to be a valid comment, it has to be something that someone else reported to you

[A]

My Bad!

Will you accept the honor of relaying how the frankenscalas sounded at AK Fest?

[jacksonbart]

Frankly, it is like saying a Chevette blew away a Corvette because the Chevette ran at top speed and the Corvette was rev limited to 15MPH.

The Jubs were clear at incredible volumes and the lf cabinets are awesome. The bass has a solid punch and is crisp.

The demo didn't make me want to drop my Khorns at the first available moment and purchase Jubs right this second - but it was enough to tell me the Jubs ARE a stepup and one I will take.

PS. C'mon Dean. The tube amp the Khorns were on was one of those cheap Chinese POS's. You know they didn't sound good. [bs]

nice

[kaiser SET say]

I think comparing the Jubs to the 60th K's is like comparing K's to Heresey's IMHO. I have heard the jubs twice now (2005 impromptu on actives in Hope) and the 2006 Pilgrim when Roy placed his proto passives and I may not be the biggest audio nut around these parts but I can hear (quite well I might add) and the Jubs eat the K's up in just sheer volumes IMHO.

I would love to own either pair but it's not a fair fight in either case scenario above. Also, once again IMHO until both speakers are setup in similar settings you can't truly judge them in a side by side comparison[^o)]

Somebody needs to put a bi-amped pair of Mac 2275's on a pair of Jubs for Mike so he can hear what good tubbage can do on a pair[Y] Maybe we could sway that SS mentality[] LOL

Congrats Bill[H]

[Jay481985]

I was told the 60th Anniversary K-horns blew away the Jub's by the pretty huge margin.

To attempt any comparison of the K's and Jubs, imho, would be a stretch at best. The K-horn room is an acoustically treated, ideal listenting room with comfortable seating and the K's nicely positioned in the corners. The Jubs were in a 32' x 45' hotel ballroom, their position in the ballroom substantially compromised and far from ideal, with scores of people mingling about in front of them. The music selections played on the K's were good recordings. All but a couple of selections played on the Jubs might not fit in the same category. There were, however, two good recordings played on the Jubs that really made them shine, despite their substantially compromised environment.

I own K's and will in a matter of a few days receive my Jubs. Report to follow . . .

So you brought them? I thought when trey said the name starts with a "b" I as like "what it be bill hendrix" but I guess you will still get them anyways []

Hi Jay,

It was GREAT spending time with you in Indy!! Yes, I held my breath when Trey said the name starts with a "b". It just ended wrong for me, but right for Riff. Oh well, I had already decided to buy a pair.

Well atleast it ended anyways with you getting a pair ! I did have a good time at dinner especially and at Indy with you.

[DrWho]

Somebody needs to put a bi-amped pair of Mac 2275's on a pair of Jubs for Mike so he can hear what good tubbage can do on a pair[Y] Maybe we could sway that SS mentality[] LOL

Good tubbage? I don't like tubby [] All the good Chevys were the SS versions...

[meagain]

I would like to hear them in a better setting (like - leave me alone to have my way with them) with perhaps different gear. I did think it sounded better when cranked up. To me, it was like they were screaming to be let loose. I hope next year (hopefully Indy again), to hear them in a different situation.

"KlipschFest" was awesome!

[BobRiff]

I thought they both sounded great, especially considering the setting we were listening to them in.

(But I might be a little biased). []

Looking forward to hearing them in a quiet room in the near future...

[theplummer]

Don't let my tin ear be any bias at all, and I did not get to hear the Jub's at all. I must say that the Khorns imaged well, BUT lacked real headroom, I brought a particular cut from an old album that I've listened to for years, so I'm very familiar with it.

I must say that I thought the Khorn room was a little dead for my taste, but more than that, the bass was not full and rich like other Khorns I've heard, they sounded thin, I blame that soley on the amp. What is that amp maybe 35wpc, I guess I'm used to 405wpc and real headroom. The khorns were incredible, as I moved around the room, I was very impressed by the large "sweet spot". I wish I could have heard the Jubs though to get a good comparision. I also wish I could hear a well set up tube that I could compare to my Sunfire amp. I havn't heard better yet.

[Klipschfoot]

I am outie 500

Dude, I say, DUDE! The expression is "outi 5000" as in "Audi 5000."

[DrWho]

I must say that the Khorns imaged well, BUT

lacked real headroom, I brought a particular cut from an old album that

I've listened to for years, so I'm very familiar with it.

You sure it wasn't the recording? The (annoying) thing about electronic

music is that higher distortion subwoofer devices add more frequency

content, which yields a much fatter/thicker sound. I bet if we ran your recording through a waterfall plot, that we'd see very narrow

frequency content in the bass region. In other words, I felt the khorns

were doing bass pretty well (though there did seem to be a little

compression from the tubes...).

I believe you played that recording for me when I visited your place,

and it sounded pretty good....though with the sub running about 10dB

too hot []

I guess my point is that there were plenty of recordings that had plenty of dynamics and bass in that room...to say that your recording should have sounded like that is to say all the other recordings were recorded hot. I never heard any source material that I was familiar with in that room so I wouldn't know either way.

[meagain]

Who - What is YOUR opinion? And also the khorns.

I personally want a do-over. Equal situations - proper a/b. But for me.... there was some good sounds coming out of that Khorn room IMO. IDK what steps I'd take to go far beyond that. Would have LOVED to have heard the khorns with some different amps/gear. I got to the Mixer late, after 8:30pm. IDK if there was a proper or better listening situation beforehand that I missed. Did I think they sounded good? Nope. Did I prefer the Khorns? Yep. But I can't fully judge unless they were in equal situations. Darn it. My impression was this.... They sounded bad until the few moments when cranked. Then they sounded.... "Hmmm..... OK I 'hear' them now differently"... My IMPRESSION was that they were just busting a gut to be let loose and sing. Like - they wanted to be there. I wish I could hear them again in a different situation. But based on what I heard, I'd be hanging in the khorn room. That said - I'm REALLY likeing what I'm getting out of my khorns right this moment. Maybe it's a VRD thing. []

I wish "KlipschFest" was every 6 months.

[theplummer]

I must say that the Khorns imaged well, BUT

lacked real headroom, I brought a particular cut from an old album that

I've listened to for years, so I'm very familiar with it.

You sure it wasn't the recording? The (annoying) thing about electronic

music is that higher distortion subwoofer devices add more frequency

content, which yields a much fatter/thicker sound. I bet if we ran your recording through a waterfall plot, that we'd see very narrow

frequency content in the bass region. In other words, I felt the khorns

were doing bass pretty well (though there did seem to be a little

compression from the tubes...).

I believe you played that recording for me when I visited your place,

and it sounded pretty good....though with the sub running about 10dB

too hot []

I guess my point is that there were plenty of recordings that had plenty of dynamics and bass in that room...to say that your recording should have sounded like that is to say all the other recordings were recorded hot. I never heard any source material that I was familiar with in that room so I wouldn't know either way.

Doc, don't doubt that I may run my bass a little (or a Lot) hot. Yes I did play Flim and the BB's Big Notes for you when you visited. I play that with or without my sub frequently, funny thing is, I don't really notice the sub much, the sub is a mere SW10II, paired with Chorous I's and Heresy II's. The point I'm trying to make is that when the bass would hit, there was a strong initial hit, but no follow up, almost like a car battery dying off after a large hit on a car sub, That's what I mean by lacking headroom. I don't have that problem with the Sunfire amp. Although, I won't get into the arguement of preference of sound between tubs and SS. I can't say that I've listened enough to tubs to know anything.

[DrWho]

It goes without saying, but the hotel room had really crappy acoustics.

I recall listening there 2 years ago with the lascalas in proper

corners, firing the long way (in the room across the hall - pretty much

same acoustics). They sounded like pure garbage - and they had the

volumes cranked to such insane levels that I found myself in the back

of the room, and then out in the hallway! And y'all thought the

Jubilees were loud. They weren't even breaking a sweat at levels that

the rest of heritage would be shaking apart.

At first, on Friday night I wasn't sure what was going on with the sound. The Crown K

series are some of my favorite amps and the Aragon preamp was surely no

slacker either. CD Player was a pro unit and they tend to be rather

straightforward (but I was unfamiliar with it). The arrangement of the

speakers was a bit interesting because each side had one speaker with a

proper corner and then another half corner of sorts. It was interesting

to note that the sound didn't seem unbalanced, even with the non

symmetry. The 402 side had a table in front of the left speaker

though...not cool.

Anyways, it wasn't until Saturday evening when we were setting up the

PA that I realized (remembered) how bad the acoustics were in the room.

Clap your hands and you got the most wonderful slapback boing in the

world. The frequency range over which I felt the 402's were ripping our

heads off totally correlated to the slapback. If I wasn't so bloody

tired I would probably have picked up on it sooner that Friday night.

I think the thing that impressed me the most was how big the sweet spot

was (with the 402's). You could walk anywhere and maintain good tonal

balance. I know of know other speaker in the world that can even come

close to this. This is generally referred to as a flat power response

and I am now a huge fan of achieving this. Initially I was a bit

skeptical of the constant directivity concepts (despite what Roy

and PWK prefer), but now I am completely sold. The problem with a flat power

response speaker is that you need a flat power response room

too. We didn't have a flat power response room which revealed itself in

harsh mids (again from the slapback). So basically, the Jubilee was

loading the room very well and bringing out the worst in the room. Much

like a revealing speaker also brings out the worst in poor recordings.

Speaking of recordings, I was actually astonished by the large number

of crappy recordings. Some great music yes, but not recorded well. I

was actually proud of how well the Jubs were accurately playing some of

these recordings - though my ears didn't enjoy it too much, lol.

The frustrating thing talking about all this is that I always feel like

I'm in a position of defending the Jubilee, which really isn't what I'm

trying to do. Y'all know I would be the first to jump out and say

something sounds like crap...like the khorns (which I still don't like

completely). But in contrast, I get the impression that a lot of people

were looking for reasons for the Jubilee to sound like crap. It's been

my experience that if you want something to be crap, that you will

always percieve it as such. Ultimately, I think this is a useless attitude

to have. Being critical is not what I'm talking about either (I promote being critical).

That said, I think a lot of people were listening very critically,

trying to pin down everything "bad" that they heard, and were still

trying to be open-minded. I had a lot of people asking me how I can say

that I enjoy the Jubilee more than the Khorn...I came up with a bunch

of BS reasons through the night (mostly cuz I was bored and wanted the

thinking exercise), but ultimately that room was crap and it was very

hard to hear through the room.

But what I did hear through the room was this...

The Jubilee has way less distortion, like freakishly low distortion.

The polar response was amazing, yielding a huge sweet spot...and in a

well behaved acoustical environment, this kind of loading of the room

should yield frightening tonal balance and clarity. The Jubilee also

has a rather impressive frequency response - much flatter than any of

its heritage brothers. It can't touch a good pair of direct-radiating

nearfields in terms of tonal balance, but I also believe in the PWK

approach where frequency response is of 4th priority (and in the far-field, the room has a larger influence anyway).

The only thing I don't like about the Jubilee is that it doesn't go low

enough...especially in such a large room with non-ideal corners.

Listening rooms more typical to what we have at home are introducing

substantial gains in the bass. PWK was well aware of this fact and

intentionally designed his speakers to be used in corners so that they

could be as small as possible, taking full advantage of the entire

effect. He wrote extensively on this subject in the Dope from Hope.

Nevertheless, even in a nice small room, I don't think the Jubilee goes

low enough for my listening tastes. No biggy, that just means I need to

find one freaken insane subwoofer to keep up. Besides, a 5.1 system

with Jubs is gonna need a sub anyway...so it's not really an extra

purchase.

I should also mention that the crossovers on the Jubilee didn't sound

fully tweaked in either. There was an active crossover in the amp rack

and two pairs of amps, so I was itching to sneak over and drop in an

active biamp config. However, that would have prevented us from using

the ABX switcher that was being used to switch between the two pairs of

speakers. A lot of people were also interested in comparing the 510 to

the 402, so it was nice to have instant switching available for them. I

guess having grown up in the pro sound world I am more accustomed to

hearing speakers before they are dialed in with a crossover...and am

familiar with the kinds of improvements that are there waiting to be

taken advantage of.

The thing I found most interesting about the 510 was how obvious the

uncontrolled polars were. If I had heard them first I dont' think I

would have noticed it very much, but once you heard the flat power

response of the 402 there was no going back. I think what many

perceived as lacking highs, or a veiled sound, was really just the

extra 600Hz'ish information from the 510 getting loaded into the room.

As far as khorns, I'd probably argue that the 60th's are the best

sounding vintage of khorn. They were in a room with decent acoustical

treatment and decent amplification. Do they sound tubby? Not really,

but that's cuz they got gobs of EQ in the crossover knocking that crap

out...something I don't think is present in anything before the AK-4?

Or is it the AK-3? Heck if I know. The khorns also don't play low

enough for my musical tastes. I also prefer the sound of a good

tractrix midrange over the mediocre performance of the exponential

K400, or the K77. You can't go to someone that hates horns on the

street and tell them to go hear a pair of khorns and expect them to

change their opinion. I think with a pair of Jubilees that you would be

able to achieve that swing....they're just soooo smooth.

Anyways, I've rambled for long enough. I was kinda hoping some people

that felt they didn't like the Jubilee would chime in and describe what

they didn't like. I can't help but wonder how many of the (secret)

negative opinions don't revolved around the crappy acoustics of the

room. It seems like the concept of acoustical treatment is finally

starting to catch on too. If nothing else, this mixer should be a

testament to the importance of a good room....as well as the need to

avoid Auralex for your acoustical solutions! [] We need to get RPGinc

into Klipsch to fix the damage...

[soundbound]

Great explanation DrWho!

[Deang]

Not bad Mike. Maybe a better title for thread might have been, So how bout them rooms?

I don't know what I was thinking, to expect a home speaker to shine in a commercial setting.

[Coytee]

I don't know what I was thinking, to expect a home speaker to shine in a commercial setting.

Clearly you are unworthy of ownership.... I'll be up Saturday to relieve you of your posessions.

[Deang]

LOL! Naw Man, MINE sound really good!