So, how about them VRD's??

[scott0527]

I've had more than one person make a side comment to me that they felt the VRD's were over rated. I was told that although the VRD's DO sound nice, there were other amps out there (some for even less expense) that sounded just as good if not even better. This person told me they sold their VRD's and unfortunately I do not recall (nor do I even recall having asked) what they replaced them with.

So, VRD owners, I'm curious as to what their value is to you?

Do you feel they offer the most superior sound to anything else?

Are they "good enough sound" at a good price? (good price/performance)

Did you simply buy them becaue of the reputation they have on this site?

Would you have bought them had you NOT read about them on this site?

Any of you sell them and care to discuss why?

Do you feel they have any shortcomings? (for owners and anyone who sold)

What are said shortcomings in your view?

How do you rate their performance to OTL's ?

Reason I'm asking all this is because I've got the McIntosh that I use. I've been debating on replacing it with something different and have considered making a purchase of the following:

1. Mark's pCats

2. OTL's

3. VRD's

I could then have them in the system for a while, get a feel for my OWN opinion and then respond accoridingly if I felt one was better for me than the other. As it is, I kind of like the historical sound I had with the OTL amps (SE-OTL's) and given my Peach, I'm highly intrigued by Mark's pCats and their class A as I understand it.

The only thing "going for" the VRD's is what I've heard here however, I've had to temper that with more than one person telling me they were not as impressed as they'd hoped.

So, thoughts?

So far Coyotee, the more than one person who has said they were not impressed with VRDs isn't speaking up? Looks like all very positive reviews 3 pages in.

If you're ever passing through Ohio, you're welcome to borrow my pCATs. I have found them to be more detailed than all of the rebuilt Vintage amps I own. Marantz 8B, McIntosh 30, 225 and 240. I've not heard the VRD's so I can't compare pCATs to the VRD's although there have been several threads on the two of them with no clear "winner".

[SilverSport]

VRDs...BlueBerry MkI...Cambridge Audio 640C...Klipschorns...John Mayer...playing in my living room right now...

Bill

[Coytee]

So far Coyotee, the more than one person who has said they were not impressed with VRDs isn't speaking up? Looks like all very positive reviews 3 pages in.

If you're ever passing through Ohio, you're welcome to borrow my pCATs. I have found them to be more detailed than all of the rebuilt Vintage amps I own. Marantz 8B, McIntosh 30, 225 and 240. I've not heard the VRD's so I can't compare pCATs to the VRD's although there have been several threads on the two of them with no clear "winner".

Indeed, the first part of your statement is true except for the 4 different PM's I've since received. I think there are people who would rather NOT say some things publically. I will admit that is a trait I can respect. Especially when such thoughts might not be exactly parallel with the aforementioned 3 pages of reviews. Those PM's will stay private (statement made in case anyone who sent one reads this and fears me saying anything)

What I find utterly fascenating is the range of comments. I will admit the most positive impact I've read yet is Nectars because over time, I feel like I've taken a slight understanding to his passion and his comments weigh a lot with me. I take Nectars comments as one of the most glowing coments I've read yet and for clarification, I'll say this... anything "negative" (and I only use that word to make the point, I've not been told anything "negative" per se' about the amps) Anyway, if we can use zero as neutral and Nectars comments as plus 9 comment on the scale, then anything "negative" I've been told would probably be a negative 1 on the same scale. Point being to agree that most all the comments are positive and those that are not, are still not negative comments, just not as glowing as others on the positive side. (that make sense?)

As for PCats... mind if I strap a Jube to the roof of my car & bring it along?!!

I'm beginning to really hope that someone brings one to Hope next year (VRD's and if possible pCat's)

As a side comment, I'm PRESUMING anyone/everyone who's read/commented here realized this would be used from 500hz on up. Given that, the bass response of the unit might be a bit lower down on my totem pole than it would be if I were using a passive. I don't know if that would change anyone's thoughts or not (I'd speculate not) but I think that is a clarification that might be in order so anyone reading would have a better idea of what frequency range the amps will be asked to perform in.

[SilverSport]

Audible's description of VRDs was one of the big factors in me buying mine as well...it really helps when buying something you had never heard firsthand before...

Bill

[Coytee]

I wish there were more OTL owners here.

[]

Then again... maybe there are few OTL owners here for a reason? [:^)]

Then again...

[Deang]

Here you go Richard -- try these and report back.

http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?ampstube&1186485734

[LarryC]

I wish there were more OTL owners here.[]

Then again... maybe there are few OTL owners here for a reason? [:^)]

OK, I admit I'm one (a pair of Joule Electra monoblocs; one is in my avatar). I didn't comment because they are the only OTL's I've ever heard. My take is standard for OTL's -- they are exceptionally transparent throughout the range and therefore very good for classical music. Also on the plus side, to my ear they have a very linear response.

The minus is lack of a powerful deep bass impact which shows up in non-classical music and powerhouse classical works like The Planets, Gary's recording of The Pines of Rome, etc. I'm told this is because the output impedance isn't as low as in OP transformer-based amps.

I've heard VRD's, and am impressed with the exceptional bass fullness and power, which are almost too much for my system. They sound very special on Gary's K-horn setup, so I can't say it's a problem for anyone but me.

Hey -- we're going to have all three of your amps at our MD/DC/VA Klipschfest on October 19-21! The OTL's at my place and VRD's at Gary's, of course, plus Mdeneen is sending a pair of pCAT's! We're going to have the pCAT's and the VRD's at Gary's place at least some of the time over the weekend. See Time to Sign up for the MD-DC-VA October 20 Klipsch/Strathmore/pC... Come along and satisfy your curiosity!

Larry

[scott0527]

Indeed, the first part of your statement is true except for the 4 different PM's I've since received. I think there are people who would rather NOT say some things publically. I will admit that is a trait I can respect. Especially when such thoughts might not be exactly parallel with the aforementioned 3 pages of reviews. Those PM's will stay private (statement made in case anyone who sent one reads this and fears me saying anything)

What I find utterly fascenating is the range of comments. I will admit the most positive impact I've read yet is Nectars because over time, I feel like I've taken a slight understanding to his passion and his comments weigh a lot with me. I take Nectars comments as one of the most glowing coments I've read yet and for clarification, I'll say this... anything "negative" (and I only use that word to make the point, I've not been told anything "negative" per se' about the amps) Anyway, if we can use zero as neutral and Nectars comments as plus 9 comment on the scale, then anything "negative" I've been told would probably be a negative 1 on the same scale. Point being to agree that most all the comments are positive and those that are not, are still not negative comments, just not as glowing as others on the positive side. (that make sense?)

As for PCats... mind if I strap a Jube to the roof of my car & bring it along?!!

I wish those that do not like the VRD's would post here publicly for the rest of us to see. It's an equipment review, if you've got something legitimate and coherent(at least partly) to say about something, that's kind of what this forum is for. Damn if the only thing I can get here is positive reviews, I'll just quit coming here and start reading Stereophile.

I wish I was heading down your direction in the near future. I'd bring the cats along and stop in for a Jube session.

[scott0527]

Here you go Richard -- try these and report back.

http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?ampstube&1186485734

Is the idea to keep jumping tubes until you only have one? Like the old wooden triangle/peg game?

[kev313]

I don't like it when a magazine (on-line or print) pulls off on a bad review for fear of damaging the company. Many of these companies, especially newer opnes, benefit GREATLY from that exposure. If they live by it, they should die by it. Not publishing the review of a known bad product is akin to cheating the consumer. Not that I am advocating for total consumer handholding, mind you. The interested consumer SHOULD try to get out and listen to an expensive purchase before committing resources. As we know, however, that isn't always possible.

But those are professional reviewers. I can respect the privacy of the consumer who doesn't feel the need to go public and risk taking some heat. They do not have the same obligation to do so in my opinion. At least you at this place you could probably find someone to have you over for a VRD session. Hell there is probably someone here who would ship the VRDs to your house for a loan.

[Deang]

I wish those that do not like the VRD's would post here publicly for the rest of us to see.

There is a dynamic at work here that should be obvious.

Is the idea to keep jumping tubes until you only have one? Like the old wooden triangle/peg game?

Imagine how much fun it would be trying to track down a noisy tube.

[Audible Nectar]

For purposes of giving some fairness and balance (and NO, not "fair and balanced"[]), I'll list some potential reasons why some might not like VRDs. I don't profess to speak for those who do not wish to speak publically, but I will address some of the possible "issues".

1. NOT "SINGLE ENDED": If you are "sold/hung up on/desiring" of single ended amplification, and nothing else will do, you are entitled to that opinion. You will want to look elsewhere. I have yet to find an audiophile/enthusiast who has decided that 3.5 watts is enough for them that would be happy with a push pull amplifier. Me and my local tube seller go round and round about this all of the time. I tell him that a good circuit and best parts will remove much of the issues of that so called "push-pull grunge". That grunge isn't as much attributable to the fact that it's "push-pull" as much as it is limitations in the circuit or parts used in the audio path. It's not like the "bean counters" at McIntosh and Marantz were putting V-Caps in those 1950's era amplifers - they were called "bean counters" for a reason. So it is my opinion in this new era of high parts quality that the exclusive benefits of SET are overstated. In fact, often I find the "added clarity" of many SET gears to be "overclarified", or "over-detailed". Like "let me show you how deeeeeeetailed I can be" type detailed, which sounds less like music and more like Quint scratching his fingernails on a chalkboard in the city council room. I'd like to see square waves run on some of these SET amps (or for that matter, any number of high end amps) at 20 Khz.

2. IT'S A DYNACO CLONE: This is a phrase/reason/comment seen here on occasion - that the design isn't really unique. Now I'm not sufficiently schooled in the Dynaco circuit, but let's say for discussion that it's an EXACT copy on paper of a Dynaco III circuit (which I know is not true, but let's just say that it is as a hypothetical). Does anyone offer such an amp 100% brand new specifically made to match/sound good on Klipsch speakers? What would you rather have - a rebuilt vintage amp or a NEW set of amps with more up to date parts? Would you rather have trannies that sat in someone's basement for 30+ years, or would you rather have shiny new ones that will last 30-50 years into the future when used in a normal climate controlled home environment? So I say even if it IS an exact clone of a Dynaco III circuit, it's STILL a very good offering that few if any is offering in the current marketplace. And of course we know it it is not an exact copy, even if it does share similarities in some fashion.

3. THERE ARE OTHER OPTIONS/AMPLIFIERS: Yes, there are other choices. PCats, SET, high powered 25W SET, vintage - hell, even solid state. If you like these, I'm not gonna change your mind. Yet I still believe that the VRDs are on a short list of recommendeds to those wanting quality amplification for thier Heritage Klipsch. NOT investigating them is a disservice to your ears and decision making process.

4. YOU THINK THE BUILDER IS AN ARSEWHOLE (and hasn't been building amps since the day he came out of the chute): I think this deserves a bit more explanation.

I sort of "backed into" my business relationship with Craig on this forum, after a long while of trying other options/persons/methods. I used to think he was somewhat of an arse too, especially during the wars with a fellow whose initials were "RI" - and to be quite honest wasn't sure who was right, why, and how. Internet forums have a way with the truth, however........in time, the cream always rises to the top. But in the meanwhile, when I really wasn't sure how much Craig knew or didn't know, I was using other techs with many more years of experience, with somewhat mixed results. Generally good - but my travels to other forum members rooms told me that I wasn't getting as much out of my gear as was really possible. Even with Craig's "nudging" that a more complete approach was advisable, I continued to read and ask many, many questions on various forums, seeking answers as to how best to refurbish/squeeze more out of my gear (and with what parts). About the time I began to get comfortable with the idea of having Craig assist with those builds, I get an email from another forum member who offered to let me hear samples of three different parts builds/setups (Joe). So now Craig's still on the back burner, while I spend 18 or so months on the "how best to part an MC-30" project.

But as that project progressed, the VRD was released, and the accompanied long list of stellar reviews. NO piece of gear on this forum seemed as universally accepted, it seemed, as the VRDs were - even if not 100%, it's hard to get 30% on an internet forum to agree with ANYTHING. So with that, I got sufficient guts built up to finally send Craig an email and ask for a demo. As they say, the rest is history.

Meeting Craig in person casts a whole new light on who he is, how he approaches his work, and what makes him tick. He is a MUCH different person than what his postings may infer. YES, he is strongly opinionated and set in many ways, but it's all from the POV of NO BS. I'll say this: I would rather have Craig's on forum persona as it is than to change anything else about his approach to his work. I made the mistake of avoiding Craig due to his on forum persona, and to a large degree, my ears paid for it. I don't regret taking those other paths......it only reinforces what I now know. I no longer doubt Craig's expertise due to his perceived on forum persona. Feel free to locate another tech who will tell you what you want to hear (instead of what you need to hear), and feel free to find another tech that will test and listen to your gear on bench with something other than Heritage Klipsch, and hope you get the best from the $$$ spent.

And then the nail in the coffin that put away any doubts regarding Craig: After deciding on my MC-30 parts package and the subsequent break in of those builds (which were VERY well done by Joe), I had a couple of minor issues which Craig recognized from my postings on forum. He offered to take care of those - to avoid the risk of shipping those pristine MC-30s back to Joe in Arizona. I trust Joe very much - but I don't trust UPS/FedUp. So Craig fixed those two minor items (one a defective part), and tweaked an otherwise stellar build by Joe - ON AN AMP/BUILD CRAIG HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH. Craig had no obligation to say/do ANYTHING - but he knew what was happening, and wanted to help. That's not someone who is out to make a quick buck or to blow smoke - that's someone who gives a damn about others. I had to MAKE him take payment, because he didn't even want to charge me.

This all coming from someone that I had NO RELATIONSHIP with other than gear fixing. And he had to offer help about 12 times before I finally let him do so. He could have blew me off years ago, but that's not his style. It takes a lot of guts to fix and build gears for a picky group of audio freaks like we have here. If he can keep the percentage of people happy here that he has, I say he must be doing something right. What would you rather have - someone who tells you what you want to hear, or what he thinks you NEED to hear?

I won't profess that the VRDs are the only solution as an amplifer for your Klipsch. I will, however, say that if they arn't good enough for you that you are one picky bastid - which is quite OK, given that this is a home for picky audio bastids. You can't make everybody happy and be all things to all people (I call those outfits CORPORATIONS and POLITICIANS), but you can make most of 'em happy when you tell the truth as you know it, and follow up on that truth.

I, too, feel that some of the "absence" of critique is unwarranted, unless it is simply a disagreement with the personality of the builder tha the dissenters don't want to inflame. If you don't like him, I guess I cannot change your mind. If there are legitimate TECHNICAL or PERFORMANCE issues with the VRDs at $2900, I haven't seen many of those. Anyone who chooses to share those critiques in private messaging is free to do so here, and will be held in confidence - although I must admit on the basis of results you would have a hard time changing my mind. But if there is something I'm missing, I'm all ears. Feel free to send me your amps that you think beat them........

[mark1101]

Well....you can add me to the list of positive reviewers. I love my VRDs and I really can't add anything new except that I have had them around 3 years, used them heavily and hard, and had absolutely no problems except for 2 tubes wear out on me. Craig has to be like the Maytag washing machine repair man concerning the VRDs. They just everything right.

Richard, they sound excellent with your old Khorns and a Peach.....which is how I am using them. But....I can't help but worry that knowing how you listen.....I just don't know if you would be happy with only 60 watts.....and certainly I'm wondering why you are considering other amps that have even less power. For me....the VRDs JUST make it. I could not have any less power actually and I keep looking a high power s/s amps. It's just a matter of time till I get one. Of course I won't sell the VRDs.

I would say to Dean: That the VRDs do NOT slam like a good s/s amp. Yes....they have very good bass for a tube amp, yes. BUt, they lack the bottom end of a good s/s amp. Not even close there IMHO of course. That's why I look the s/s amps from time to time. I'm playing a decent one on my LaScalas on Jub clones, and it makes me want a really good one. I agree with everything else you said.

I have a forum get together happening now and forum member Paully is bring some SET amps to my home. I never heard anything like that. So, I'll let you know about these lower power amps later today.

[Deang]

I would say to Dean: That the VRDs do NOT slam like a good s/s amp.

I thought the VRD's hung pretty good with the QSC amp I had in here, but I don't have a big room and it loads up pretty quick.

[NOSValves]

Indeed, the first part of your statement is true except for the 4 different PM's I've since received. I think there are people who would rather NOT say some things publically. I will admit that is a trait I can respect. Especially when such thoughts might not be exactly parallel with the aforementioned 3 pages of reviews. Those PM's will stay private (statement made in case anyone who sent one reads this and fears me saying anything)

What I find utterly fascenating is the range of comments. I will admit the most positive impact I've read yet is Nectars because over time, I feel like I've taken a slight understanding to his passion and his comments weigh a lot with me. I take Nectars comments as one of the most glowing coments I've read yet and for clarification, I'll say this... anything "negative" (and I only use that word to make the point, I've not been told anything "negative" per se' about the amps) Anyway, if we can use zero as neutral and Nectars comments as plus 9 comment on the scale, then anything "negative" I've been told would probably be a negative 1 on the same scale. Point being to agree that most all the comments are positive and those that are not, are still not negative comments, just not as glowing as others on the positive side. (that make sense?)

As for PCats... mind if I strap a Jube to the roof of my car & bring it along?!!

I wish those that do not like the VRD's would post here publicly for the rest of us to see. It's an equipment review, if you've got something legitimate and coherent(at least partly) to say about something, that's kind of what this forum is for. Damn if the only thing I can get here is positive reviews, I'll just quit coming here and start reading Stereophile.

I wish I was heading down your direction in the near future. I'd bring the cats along and stop in for a Jube session.

I absolutely agree!! I might find it enlightening.

With that said. Honestly with this hobby is any audio component available that all would considered the hands down winner? Hell we can not even agree on which Klipsch speaker is the best!

The VRD and VRD-ST are both what I prefer on my horn speakers, in my room, with my musical preference (with many other speakers to boot, good amplification is just that and is not limited to just one type of speaker). I personally have not found something I prefer more out of literally hundreds of different amps that have passed through here! I have found some that I could live with no problem. Will every single person prefer them? Absolutely not. In audio the best does not exist for all people. Hell it befuddles me why anyone would prefer SET amplifiers. But that doesn't mean the person is wrong in doing so. In the end all I can do as an audio equipment designer and builder is offer what I prefer. When I start building what will sell the best or amps that I consider sound below what I like then it's time to close up shop. This isn't about money to me!

In this case if Coytee was in total love with OTL except for the lack of power I truly think he should pursue higher end OTL. I've heard some real heavy hitters from this topology which sounded great but again I was not floored. But if that is the type of sound he is after then I suggest he pursue it.

Craig

[Deang]

"I absolutely agree!! I might find it enlightening."

Cleaned up your spelling for you.

[NOSValves]

"I absolutely agree!! I might find it enlightening."

Cleaned up your spelling for you.

What are you wanting to be buddies again?

[NOSValves]

Although I don't think I am on Craigs most favored list, I bought mine used,

Your not on any list.... I don't hold grudges unless repeatedly offended. It was just one of those things as far as I'm concerned. Water under the bridge on my end.

Craig

[NOSValves]

i have had them all (except p-cats) and they are all very good at what they were intended to do when they were built, one amp being better than the other or saying i have heard better for the same money is an opinion and as such is very subjective

that said i now have welbourne laurel 300B's driving my oris horns, and a pair of vrd's driving my bottom ends, ( i do beleive it is overkill to have vrd's just driving bass, but an oppertunity presented itself and i decided i would see how they compared to a digital 150 watt amp)

i beleive this question is best answered by what you want the amp to do, IE......do you want crystal clear detail, do you want an overall musical amp with plenty of oomph, do you want something that does both

for my system i had to go with bi-amping to get the detail i wanted and the oomph i also wanted, im not sure any 1 amp can do that (maybe out there but i have not heard it yet)

so my opinion of the vrd's is like this they are a very musical amp with plenty of power, they are very quiet (even more so than my digital hypex amp), but they do lack the detail i wanted on the mid/high end (again this is opinion, THE DETAIL I WANTED, may be way to much for others) if you are happy just enjoying the music and not worried about little nuances that are obscured or hidden then i beleive a person could live a lifetime with a pair of vrd amps...........................

not sure if this speaks highly enough for some here but it means loads to me i bought a new pair of vrd's a couple years ago and i subsequintly sold them to move into the detail crowd, and i just bought another pair so i must have felt they were a very good amp

i would like to hear marks amps the p cats but alas i am a poor man, and cant swing 4 grand

Joe

Joe,

What set of amps did you get? Were they the set that were just recently on A-gon? If so get with me those were slightly modified and easily reversible.

Craig

[Arky]

Craig: You are an absolute dichotomy to me, especially having never met you. Your posts in this thread are extremely reasonable, tactful & helpful. Yet you bash the Jubilee despite never having heard it. If I venture out to tube land I think i'll give your amps a try.