OT: How many of you own Tankless Water Heaters?

[ssh]

I had a natural gas Rheem installed in the house I'm remodeling to move into. It replaces a 40 & a 30 gal.hot water heater. Since my dog & I are the only occupants, I expect a significant savings over time. I also got a $300 tax savings.

SSH

[pauln]

Just to complete the range of scenarios, I have a gas water heater. I turned off it's gas supply and pilot two months ago and won't turn them on until November. It is in my attic and the summer temps in Houston keep the water in the tank plenty hot for showers. It's passive solar, I'm greener than you...[]

[colterphoto1]

Picky,

natural gas tankless water heaters are the way to go. If you have natural gas in the house already it's even easier. Plus with tankless water heaters you can even use them as part of a hydroheat system for the whole house.

Look at our website where you will find a test we ran on the Rinnai tankless unit.[D]

http://www.okaloosagas.com/appliances/waterHeaters/waterheatertest.cfm

Thank you Klipschaholic, That's a VERY interesting experiment, it actually verifies what I tell my customers when posed with this question. MAS, your probably not going to like my take on this subject, but, here goes.

Let's just eliminate the electric, This in my opinion should only be used when no other option is available (unfortunately cheep A$$ contractors think that an extra $200 bucks is the reason that there is No other option).

But looking at this from a "GREEN" perspective, I would prefer to keep mine in my pocket. Not to say that I'm not about conservation by any streatch(man I can't speel that word).

Look at cost, the last time I priced a whole house system, it went something like this. A typical 2 1/2 bath house, with a custom shower,

Can we leave the 'custom' shower out of the equation?

can easily swallow 18 gallons of water per minute. (Remember we are American, we like to have the diswasher running, while we are watering the lawn, taking a shower, and doing a load of laundry). Soooo, You need to think about volume. Your going to need 3 units tied together in a series to handle that load. Then you have to have a computer controller to integrate them so they operate correctly. So not counting How much flu pipe your going to need, labor to install, or any other peripherials, your looking at $3800.00 Hard cost for the heaters and controller.

Picky has natural gas water heater now, no flu pipe needed. And is the load really going to be that great? I would imagine that if his 40 gallon will service his family, that a single demand unit would also suffice. What is this 18 gpm based upon, seems a bit high by most usage estimates, is this perhaps the max attainable with all household faucets running? And watering the lawn, with hot water, c'mon.

According to the attached study, you CAN expect a 64% decrease in usage. Or about a $15 per month savings, But wait, during the summer months, you have to pay a minimum hook up fee of $35 to $40 a month, and that covers a minimum amount of gas (kind of like a cell phone), you don't have to pay more until you go over minimum usage, so the only person that benifits from your $3800 investment is the gas company (during the summer months).

If you already have natural gas, those fees will not apply. Those fixed costs occur anyway.

Ok, not counting the Minimum fee the gas company is going to charge every month, but using the $15 per month savings, you have to use your water heaters 14.4 years just to recover installation costs. Over purchasing what I have been installing for several years with FANTASTIC results. I recommend installing two 50 gal gas water heaters, IN SERIES, NOT PARALLEL. This will give you an endless supply of hot water because as you use minimal hot water, only the first water heater fires, not both. The only time the second water has to fire is when it calls for re-heating the 50 gals already in the tank (This is a very minimal amount of fuel used to achieve this), but when you require a large amount of hot water, the first water heater can pre-heat the incoming cold water to about 60 degrees, when that 60 degree water enters the second water heater, it can easily take the warmer water up to a desirable temperature( say 100 degrees), and you have not increased your current fuel usage by any great measurable amount over a single water heater.

Sooo, for me, I'll keep my "GREEN" in my pocket (until the technology cheapens to a more realistic cost.

DO IT Picky, you have the know how, you are certainly 'picky' enough to do the job right. It will save you money and buy you some space in your bungalow.

If the reader is setup in all electric home, some of Plummer's argument holds water (sorry for pun). The changeover to gas and fixed monthly expense with gas company would be prohibitive. But if you're already using natural gas in the home, especially if you already have gas to the water heater, this seems to makes economic sense.

Now I have to figure out what to do in my home. Every major system in this house has been replaced in the past three years but hot h20. I have a gas boiler, but it is plumbed very far away from the water stackss so when I replaced it, it was not going to practicable to include residential hot water use into it's capacity. My 50 gal is electric, and that is the only utility in that part of the house. I could either put in a demand electic unit or have gas plumbed over and use gas unit. With the rising cost of natural gas, the electric might look less expensive, but I worry about it's being able to keep up with demand. Have to do some research.

[theplummer]

Colterphoto, I tried to appologize for the error about watering the lawn, I left the impression that I'm dumb enough to water lawns with hot water, I was trying to convey the fact that we americans like our ammenities to work every time we turn them on, even if someone else is using the same product in the house at the same time. Like using the internet at our house, its a fight for who gets to be online at the smae time, Damn dial up.

Also, I feel I'm at a great disadvantage in this realm, as You guys are somehow able to post within my post when you quote, change color, and such, really highlighting your points. For some reason, after your website went down a while back, the way I post has gotten very difficult. If I try to type anything, it crams all the paragraphs together. For me to get a new paragraph I have to type (< P >) with no spaces. When I try to interject in a quote, I have to decipher a lot of code and try to fit it in. So look closely within My last two posts, where I quoted Picky and MAS for my responses, there in there, but hard to identify.

I wish someone could help me get my connection back the way it used to be. I have already tried to contact the administrator and he spoke of some mumbo jumbo code that I did not understand.

Edit: I was able to fix the problem by going into my options and choosing a different text editor, I'm trying TinyMCE. Is this one the easiest to use or what?

Hopefully I should be able to be more clear in the future. Picky, good luck on your trek to water heater Nirvana.

[colterphoto1]

Didn't mean to double-highlight the lawn thing. I posted before reading the others.

If you wish to reply and include the original post, hit the QUOTE button. You can go to the end of that quote and type your new text there, or intersperse it as I did in the above example.

No special editor is needed for color, fonts, etc. I think it's a selection you make within your user id. I'll check. Yeah, I'm using the TinyMice LOL one.

You're cool, I'm sure Picky appreciated your response, just that the economics might work out differently than any of us imagine. There are multiple factors to consider, as you pointed out. The accounting equation to this type of decision is complex indeed, water use, utility rates and fixed fees, installation costs all contribute to the payback period for such an endeavor.

Meanwhile in the land of 'blowed up' my iMac continues to sit here unpowered. There is an Apple store on my side of town. I think they have a thing they call the 'Genius Bar' that is supposed to be able to mop up the 'Geek Squak" (who could offer me no Mac tips at all when I bought my iPod that started this mess). Thanks Big Blue!

Michael

[SilverSport]

I would think the plummer might know whereof he speaks...course everyone is entitled to their opinion...I was considering one of these as well and my professionals said the same as the plummer...

Bill

[Coytee]

A typical 2 1/2 bath house, with a custom shower, can easily swallow 18 gallons of water per minute. (Remember we are American, we like to have the diswasher running, while we are watering the lawn, taking a shower, and doing a load of laundry). I have yet another word for it, but you wouldn't like it! i8 gallon per minute showers!!!!!!? You've got to be kidding, or simply insane.

I'm not taking a pro nor con side to this, only to make the mention that I'm on a well. My well produces OVER 100 gallons/minute. My pump in the well produces "about" 26 gpm at my pressure tank as I recall. Water volume is NOT a concern of mine.

I have specifically yanked most of my 1/2" copper pipe out of the basement and run 3/4" copper to the shower I'm installing down there. I have bought specific shower valves that have 3/4" THROUGHPUT on them, as opposed to being 1/2" internal.

I wanted to make the most potent shower I could since I had the supply for it. When I was buying the shower, the girl at the store laughed at me & asked if I was building a carwash. I've got my main showerhead (yanked out water saver washer), 3 body sprayers (haven't yanked water savers out yet but might upon installation) and 1 handheld. If the shower & 3 bodysprayers are going at same time, it will have the capacity of something approaching 12 gpm in this shower alone which of course, means I COULD suck hot water out of my tank pretty quickly, so I've also upped my water tank from the 50 gal to an 80 gal. (I'm not a plumber and my gpm numbers on shower heads is based on weak memory of conversations 8 months ago)

I WAS and actually DID look into these tankless systems and the guy at the store who I would have bought it from, talked me out of one. He said that since I'm on a well (and 100% electricity, I do not have gas, though my wife might argue...[:|])

Anyway, he said that the tankless heaters are designed to raise the temp of the water a certain amount, relative to its input and since I was on a well it woudln't raise my temp as hot as might be needed (we never thought of putting two in parallel)

Guess that means I"m on the insane side? Muhahahahahaha....

[]

[CECAA850]

The gas water heater in my house was there when we moved in 15 years ago. It was abviously not new when we moved in. We (I) recently replaced it due to the fact that we were remodeling and it had to come out due to the fact that we were going to put tile under it. I thought that if I went to the trouble to pull it, I might as well replace it. It had been working flawlessly up till that point. There are 5 of us in the house (2 teenagers!) and we never run out of hot water. It's a 40 gallon tank. I looked into tankless water heaters at that time. Labor was not an issue as I worked as a state licensed construction plumber for 10 years. I couldn't justify the cost, combined with the fact that most places said that I would need 2 the way my house was laid out. The only experience that I've had personally was the fact that my brother had one installed in his house. What I foud was that when taking a shower, I was continually adjusting the temperature as it would not stay constant. It was aggravating. Tankless was just not cost effective or practical for me. I have a gas water heater, stove and central heat. My gas bill is typically my lowest utility bill.

[picky]

Picky, I'm sorry for not giving you the answer you were looking for. Ultimately, its YOUR MONEY, SPEND IT ANY WAY YOU WANT TO. I thought you wanted a honest opinion from my knowledge. I consider the customers pocket book and comfort as paramount. The only thing I did not consider was the necessity for a smaller footprint. That would be the only time I would recommend a tankless water heater in todays current market. Because, if your wanting this exclusively for efficiency sake, your going to lose.

With regards to having to replace water heaters every 7 to 10 years, I'm willing to bet your currently using electric water heaters, and you have extremely hard water, just like my region. The obvious remedy, install a water softener, problem solved! My father has had his electric water heater for 20 years and has NEVER NEEDEED SERVICING. But, If you go conventional gas, and don't have a water softener, expect your water heater to last much longer, as there is no internal heat source causing calcium to boil out of the water, which is most likely the cause of your water heater failures in the first place. If you just install a 50 gallon Gas water heater, you will save more in reduced electric bills in less than a year to pay for the gas water heater, I've proven that one to myself years ago. I used to have a electric water heater and my electric bills were $130 per month ( and that was with a Gas furnace). My water heater crapped out and I installed a 50 gallon Gas water heater and my electic bills dropped to $40 per month, and at that time, the Gas company charged $28 per month minimum fee and during the summer, my new gas water heater did not use more than the minimum fee for the entire month. The only time the gas bill was more than $28 per month was when the furnace was running.

With regards to the extreme estimates you've received, Its the industry standard for estimating, to take actual material costs and double that total. 50% material costs and 50% labor. That's pretty much the way it works. Now, if you could find a plumber that is willing to work on time and material, for this particular job, you might be way ahead. As long as you can trust the integrity of the Plumber, so he's not going to slack while he's on your time. That's the downside to hiring someone on T&M.

theplummer: I really do appreciate and respect your professional expertise in this matter as well as your honesty. I didn't mean to ruffle any feathers and if I did, I apologize. I am simply frustrated with my local professional plumbers' attitude as a whole and their seemingly reluctant stance to support my desire to install a newer, more efficient technology in my home. The consumers I have spoken with around here who own them have nothing but praise for the units. However, they have all cautioned me to be sure to install a dual-demand, rather than a single-demand unit so that I don't experience the temperature fluctuation issues aforementioned here in another post.

Regarding my 7 10 year replacement cycle, we have always had a natural gas water heater and the water quality in our area is exceptional. Our water here in <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" />WayneCounty is supplied by the Detroit City Water Department and the water isnt considered to be extremely hard. The majority of people in my region who have water softeners are those who reside in OaklandCounty (north of the city) and their water comes from personally-owned wells on their property.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />

I don't wish to go electric as I already have a 40 gallon natural gas unit and for the reasons you stated about their inability to keep up with the performance of a gas unit. I am able to hang the tankless right on my chimney and vent it directly to the chimney except that would require a chimney liner, which I currently do not have, nor do I wish to have installed at this time. My option is to hang the tankless on the outside wall of the basement next to the washer and vent the flu directly outside through the home's bond joist. This type of installation is clearly spelled out for me on the Rheem web site for which they sell a stainless steel direct vent kit for about $30.

With my cost of the water heater being about $980 dollars (for a dual-demand Rheem), plus the $30 vent kit, and the appropriate copper pipes, gas line, fittings and associated materials, I should be able to do this job myself for less that $1,100. So, if I double that, your formula does make sense after a profit for the heater assembly itself is added. Therefore, I take back what I'd said about the $2,500 figure I've been getting from the other plumbers. It makes sense, but it's out of my budget and would take far too long for me to realize a payback on my investment. But, I am now more determined that ever to install this myself. I'll have to what until my knees are properly healed. If I see a 30% reduction in my gas bill, I predict that I shall realize my payback on the $1,100 in as little as 18 months, which is an acceptable timetable for me. What still makes no sense to me are the few plumbers who said they would do the installation for $1,600, not including the cost of the unit. That's just plain robbery.

coytee: The Rheem tankless I am looking at can raise the water temperature 90 degrees F, so in the summer months, I would expect the output to be approximately 140 degrees F or higher. In the winter months, here in the north, the incoming water temperature is considerably cooler so I can expect a decrease in the final output to maybe 130 degrees F or thereabouts.

[CECAA850]

Picky, just a quick question. I may have interpreted your thoughts incorrectly so bear with me. You said that you could recoup 1100.00 in roughly 18 months in savings. That would be about 61.00 a month that the water heater would have to save you. You'd have to spend over 200.00 a month to just heat water to make a 30% savings of 61.00 or am I missing something?

If I lived closer, I'd be happy to help you put it in.

Carl

[mas]

Picky, I heartily encourage you to go for it!

While relatively new to the US, instantaneous/tankless water heaters are an estalblished well proven technology that offer savings over continuous heat/tank systems.

But with systems proposing computer control, multiple series water tanks rather than simple zoned distributed systems(if necessary), I hope you can see why so many of the professional estimates are simply absurd.

Couple this change with other simple energy saving measures such as insulating the hot water pipes and using low flow shower heads, the savings can be even greater without scarificing quality of life factors. And don't forget the aditional savings due to the one year tax incentives offered for such an upgrade, further accelerating your payback period.

And no, if you already have gas you do not want to go electric! Electricity is a terribly inefficient method for heating. Electricity is great for light bulbs and motors, not resistance heating, although an electric tankless system has advantages over a conventional electric tanked system as well and should be considered by anyone with an electric tank system.

And I feel sorry the poor folks who have a 40 gallon tank water heater and have 18 gpm shower heads! Now thats luxury...in under 2 minutes! I wonder what 'professional' designed that!?

By the way, someone suggested to me that turning my car off (instead of leaving it continuously idling in the drive) and only starting it when I wanted to drive would save gas. Of course, listening to the professionals who suggested having two cars running in the drive in addition to a computer for me to know how and when to start my car(s), I was sceptical. What do you think? A system running 24/7 versus a system running only when I need it.???? Gee, its so confusing.

[theplummer]

Picky,

No feathers ruffled here, by you at least. I have been really aggravated by the way I've had to muddle through the way I have been having to post. I've got that problem fixed now. Not to say that there are certain others here whom must be absolute geniouses at absolutely everything under the sun[], and don't mind saying so.

Sounds like a good project for a capable DIY'er, like yourself (I've seen your Ht, pretty impressive). I'm curious though, ( forgot that you were currently using gas water heaters from your first post, so please disregard all the hoopla about electric), Why are you only getting 7 to 10 years out of your current style water heaters. In our area (Missouri River Basin) we have extremely hard water(measures 23 to 30 hardness) Electric water heaters usually only last that long, but gas water heaters last indefinately in our region as I stated before, there's no element in the water to boil out the calcium therefore creating a problem. I'm wondering if there is not some anomolie in your local water that I am not aware of, and if I might make a point here, If your having a problem with gas tank water heaters, wouldn't you think that you would have the same or worse problem with a tankless water heater (since the tankless is nothing more than a car style radiator with small tubes inside to get plugged up instead of a large tank ). I'd hate to see you shell out $1100 for a water heater that may only last 1/2 the time of a $400.00 unit. (This is just a thought that concerns me as I'm not familiar with your water supply)

I'm also not sure of your math, is the water heater the only thing that you have gas for or do you have other appliances on gas also? Also, have you checked with your gas company to see what the minimum monthly fee is (if there is any) and how many cubif feet of gas that minimum pays for (wether you use it or not). I'm betting that during the summer months, your usage will be less than the minimum fee assessed, therefore no economical gain will be seen, as your previous water heater is in this same boat. The only ones that will see this benifit is your gas company.

Now, if you do decide to do this, I had forgotton about the tax credit that is available to you for installing the unit. That is a definate plus. I think an earlier post claimed a $300.00 tax credit, that's good because a tax credit is a dollar for dollar reduction in taxes paid. That may make this a dooable project. Let's do the math, You estimate $1100 complete installation DIY. Minus cost for a new 50Gal water heater $475.00. Minus the $300 tax credit. equals $325 difference in installation costs. Now, take the summer months that you do not use heat off the table because that's a wash anyway between the tank style and the tankless. So, lets estimate 6 months of a $15.00 a month reduction in actual usage that YOU save, not the gas company. That's $90.00 per year , or a break even point of 3.6 years. Now this may be doable, if as I said before, there's nothing funky going on with your water supply that will reduce the life of the tankless unit. I still say, that if you hired a pro to install the tankless over conventional, your time on recovering the initial cost would be prohibitivie.

I actually had a Takagi sales rep, and tech engineer approach me to convince me to install their units exclusively. I asked many of the same questions, and posed the same mathmatical equations using their research data. They hated to admit it but they agreed that there was a 15year recovery of installation costs. I told them that their product is great, but installing three units with a computer controller (as they recommend with a typical 2 1/2 bath home), the cost was extremely prohibitive. They could do nothing but reluctantly agree with me.

You may be able to get along with One Rheem unit, but remember there are a lot of factors to consider. Rheem is claiming a 7.2 GPM worth of hot water (industry standard is Minimum 100 degrees F or more). This is at what pressure? 70psi, probably. Do you know what your pressure is. You said that your on city water. You probably have 90psi or more then. That will increase volume at your fixtures, so the 1.9 gpm rated shower head may be actually putting out something like 2.3gpm at a higher pressure. I'm concerned that you may be taking a shower, while your wife is filling the washing machine, and filling the kitchen sink with dishwater, your not going to suffer a pressure loss, but rather a temperature decrease as the tankless is not going to be able to properly heat the water up to usable temps (due to volume increases). Your Code required Scald guard shower valve is not going to be able to detect this either (because they work on pressure reductions, not temperature changes.)

I'm not trying to talk you out of anything, I'm just not convinced that the technology is up to the standard that the manufacturers had hoped for. Especially when comparing economics.

Good luck Picky.

[Coytee]

Something I recall being told about a tankless system... (don't know if it's true or not which is why I'm asking)

I was told that in order for it to work as designed, the water had to be flowing through it at FULL capacity?

Meaning, you essentially turn your hot water valve on all the way, then use your cold valve to adjust the temp down if/as needed?

If I was told correctly AND understood it correctly, they were saying that if you were say, washing your hands and put a trickle of water out of the hot valve, that you'd essentially not get ANY flow (of heated water) as that wasn't enough flow to kick the heater into gear.

Anyone know if that's true?

[Coytee]

If I was told correctly AND understood it correctly, they were saying that if you were say, washing your hands and put a trickle of water out of the hot valve, that you'd essentially not get ANY flow (of heated water) as that wasn't enough flow to kick the heater into gear.

To clarify that statement, it means to say that you would only get cold water out of the hot faucet since the flow isn't high enough to kick in the heater system.

[picky]

Picky, just a quick question. I may have interpreted your thoughts incorrectly so bear with me. You said that you could recoup 1100.00 in roughly 18 months in savings. That would be about 61.00 a month that the water heater would have to save you. You'd have to spend over 200.00 a month to just heat water to make a 30% savings of 61.00 or am I missing something?

If I lived closer, I'd be happy to help you put it in.

Carl

Sorry, Carl: I was remiss in the fact that I failed to note that I was including the $300 tax write-off in my approximation. Even if i's more like 24 or 36 months until payback occurs, I'd still be satisfied. My main concern now would be, who services the unit should it require warranty work?

theplummer: Thanks for the nice compliment on our HT. You certainly appear to know your stuff! Sure, I could be off on my figuring and naturally, there are the possible concerns you mentioned relative to pressure and such. I'm still not yet convinced that I am going to go the route of the tankless. But, I'll tell you one thing: I certainly have gotten a lot more excellent information from everyone than I had ever imagined! I will continue my research. Thanks! Also: I agree with you; I have no idea why water tanks around here all seem to last only 7 to 10 years before they begin to leak.

coytee: The water heater has a digital temperature control that you can mount where you want it. I plan to mount it next to the kitchen sink and set it to something like 104 degrees F to start with for showers. That way I'll only have to open the hot water valve in the shower rather than blending the hot and cold together. For washing dishes or clothes I'll set it to 140 degrees F.

[mas]

coytee: The water heater has a digital temperature control that you can mount where you want it. I plan to mount it next to the kitchen sink and set it to something like 104 degrees F to start with for showers. That way I'll only have to open the hot water valve in the shower rather than blending the hot and cold together. For washing dishes or clothes I'll set it to 140 degrees F.

May I suggest checking with the manual or manufacturer of your dish washer. Most have an interior integrated water heater designed to boost the water temperature, Depending upon the design, you can either adjust this, disable it, or if not configurable, simply run lower temperature water to the unit depending upon what combination offers the greatest cost efficiency and effectiveness.

[Cal Blacksmith]

I guess I am a bit late to the party here but I have installed them on RVs and they are great. I looked into getting one for my house when the tank unit went bad (after 7 years, gas with hard water) but I was off from work with a knee injury and didn't want to go through all the trouble of changing the roof vent to a larger one (clay tile roof) though the unit is located in the garage and there was easy access. They do indeed use less fuel for the same job and they are rated in degrees of water temp rise over the incoming water temp at a specific flow. Our water pressure is so low that we have been forced to only do one thing at a time (we live at the top of a hill and were forced by the water company to sign an agreement with them that if we wanted more pressure, we had to install and maintain our own suplimental water tank and pump. We have copper plumbing so scale on the inside of the pipes is not an issue.

I did find out though that the pipes in the garage were installed backwards. That is, the hot pipe was on the right and the cold was on the left! This is true for the hot water heater and the clothes washing machine hookups. I can only guess that the plumber who did the work did it from the wrong side of the wall and it looked normal for him. I found this out when we replaced the water heater, I turned off the shutoff valve and when I disconected the "input" pipe on the water heater, I had water flowing out of the heater under pressure! I turned the water off to the house at the street and proceded to remove the water heater. I then opened the shut off valve where the water heater used to be and had someone watch the pipes while I quickly turned the main valve on for a few seconds then turn it off. The water flowed from the pipe WITHOUT the shutoff valve, located on the LEFT side of the water heater! I then installed a valve on the "new" supply side, left the other valve in place, installed the water heater with long flex pipes and cris-crossed them on the tank. Now, the water flows properly through the tank, that is cold water goes in to the bottom and the hot water comes out the top and the 40 gallon tank has much more hot water available to use! However the clothes washer still has the hot water come out of the right valve and the cold out of the left one. How this got past inspection, I don't know[:^)]

[theplummer]

I did find out though that the pipes in the garage were installed backwards. That is, the hot pipe was on the right and the cold was on the left! This is true for the hot water heater and the clothes washing machine hookups. I can only guess that the plumber who did the work did it from the wrong side of the wall and it looked normal for him. I found this out when we replaced the water heater, I turned off the shutoff valve and when I disconected the "input" pipe on the water heater, I had water flowing out of the heater under pressure! I turned the water off to the house at the street and proceded to remove the water heater. I then opened the shut off valve where the water heater used to be and had someone watch the pipes while I quickly turned the main valve on for a few seconds then turn it off. The water flowed from the pipe WITHOUT the shutoff valve, located on the LEFT side of the water heater! I then installed a valve on the "new" supply side, left the other valve in place, installed the water heater with long flex pipes and cris-crossed them on the tank. Now, the water flows properly through the tank, that is cold water goes in to the bottom and the hot water comes out the top and the 40 gallon tank has much more hot water available to use! However the clothes washer still has the hot water come out of the right valve and the cold out of the left one. How this got past inspection, I don't know[:^)]

[/quote

Actually , this happens more often than you'd think. Since you have multiple sources that are switched, Water heater, laundry, it sounds like the plumber got confused at the trunk line, if you have a unfinished basement, that should be a minor repair to fix, but then you'd have to uncross your water heater. Also, the reason your water heater did not last that long was exactly caused by the improper installation. The dip tube was not able to do its job in agitating the bottom of the tank. Glad to see you solved that problem.

[Cal Blacksmith]

Alas, I wish we had a basement but in So Cal, they are as rare as gold plated hens teeth! The heater is in the garage and is seperated from a bathroom by a bedroom which is between the two sets of pipes. The pipes go over the bedroom and they are right in that bathroom and the rest of the house. I agree that the reason that the heater died so quickly was that the dip tube could not do it's job of flushing the sediment from the bottom of the tank. All is well now though []

[Jay481985]

Didn't mean to double-highlight the lawn thing. I posted before reading the others.

If you wish to reply and include the original post, hit the QUOTE button. You can go to the end of that quote and type your new text there, or intersperse it as I did in the above example.

No special editor is needed for color, fonts, etc. I think it's a selection you make within your user id. I'll check. Yeah, I'm using the TinyMice LOL one.

You're cool, I'm sure Picky appreciated your response, just that the economics might work out differently than any of us imagine. There are multiple factors to consider, as you pointed out. The accounting equation to this type of decision is complex indeed, water use, utility rates and fixed fees, installation costs all contribute to the payback period for such an endeavor.

Meanwhile in the land of 'blowed up' my iMac continues to sit here unpowered. There is an Apple store on my side of town. I think they have a thing they call the 'Genius Bar' that is supposed to be able to mop up the 'Geek Squak" (who could offer me no Mac tips at all when I bought my iPod that started this mess). Thanks Big Blue!

Michael

what version or year imac? if I think it is what it is it was one of the first generation imacs that had problems with the power supply. When you stick everything computer related into such a small space and use side blowing fans expect problems..... I worked at an apple store..... I knew "genii" and I knew that some of the genii were no where near some geek squads I knew when I worked at best buy........