OT: How many of you own Tankless Water Heaters?

[picky]

I live in lower Michigan and I am considering replacing my 40 gallon, natural gas, standard water heater with a new indoor, dual-demand, whole house tankless model from either Rheem, Bosch or Paloma that will output at least 7.4 gallons of hot water per minute. I've read the installation manuals and it doesn't seem like that big of a deal to install one, yet most of the plumbing agencies around here have prices that start around $2,500 and go to over $4,000 for one unit and its installation. This price range seems rediculous to me when I can buy a good unit for just under $1,000 that could last 20 years or more. Replacement with a standard, fast-recovery 40-gallon unit, installed by a plumber would cost between $500 - $600 dollars, but they tend to last only 7 - 10 years. I'm having trouble just getting plumbers to come out for an estimate on the tankless!

What experiences do you have with installation and service?

Did you install it yourself or have a plumber do it?

If you installed it yourself, was it difficult?

How has its use effected your gas bill? (Our son's father in-law claims his gad bill has been reduced by 30% after installing his.)

After having used yours for a while, what recommendation can you offer?

Are you satisfied with its service and performance?

Thanks, everyone! -Glenn

[mas]

I don't currently have one, but I know many who do...and this is my next intended energy mod.

Next to additional attic insulation, THIS is the mod to make!

They are a very proven reliable technology, but we in the US have sat on our posteriors for far too long being oblivious to them.

If you are handy and are competent to cut in a standard water heater, you should do fine installing it yourself. Note that you will need a stack and a gas feed with condensation trap and cutoff (if you had an electric heater) which should not intimidate most.

Just be sure to plan in advance and to layout/map everything that you need so that there are no surprises.

And my parents LOVE them!

And the savings are real! You heat what you need when you need it as opposed to keeping a poorly insulated tank of water hot 24/7 and then experiencing substantial losses due to long transport through mostly uninsulated pipes. In automotive circles this is called a radiator!

Note, most homes can do with just one. But the optimal setup is for a zoned system where smaller units are more appropriate and the various loads and losses much less.

[oldtimer]

Mas is right. I would not recommend the electric variety but the gas heaters are the way to go. There is no reason for those estimates to be that high.

[mas]

OT, the electric variety has been the norm in Europe for 40+ years, and they too offer a much greater savings over the traditional electric tank models. But the gas units are more efficient. Refrigeration may confuse the Euros, but they have the water heating down.

I prefer gas, given the choice, but if you only have electrical service, by all means use the electric model. And those are EASY to install, as essentially all you are doing is re-routing some of the copper water supply piping. Just be sure to install an inline upstream water cut-off if the builders conveniently left them out as is so common here!

If you are looking at loads, you might also consider a zoned system. Or if a high flow/demand system is required, you can parallel the tankless heaters for increased supply.

I'll stick my neck out and recommend that everyone seriously consider additional fiberglass insulation (unless you simply want to reapply the compacted and humidity soaked cellulose in 2-3 years) to at least R49 in the attic and to install point source tankless water heating. These have the lowest required investment, the quickest payback/ROI, and the greatest continuing return over time.

And if you are in an area where the soils allow it without blasting, a geothermal heat pump for heating and cooling is incredible as well (otherwise you are on your own with a heat pump as few areas are really suited with the optimal airborne temperature differentials!)

Recently some discovered 'green' and focused on cars. Considering that the house uses in excess of 40% of ALL energy used in the country, fixing your home, and saving money and energy in the long run is a much more productive use of your time and money as opposed to debating which poorly implemented auto strategy is worth buying!

[klipschaholik]

Picky,

natural gas tankless water heaters are the way to go. If you have natural gas in the house already it's even easier. Plus with tankless water heaters you can even use them as part of a hydroheat system for the whole house.

Look at our website where you will find a test we ran on the Rinnai tankless unit.[D]

http://www.okaloosagas.com/appliances/waterHeaters/waterheatertest.cfm

[theplummer]

Picky,

natural gas tankless water heaters are the way to go. If you have natural gas in the house already it's even easier. Plus with tankless water heaters you can even use them as part of a hydroheat system for the whole house.

Look at our website where you will find a test we ran on the Rinnai tankless unit.[D]

http://www.okaloosagas.com/appliances/waterHeaters/waterheatertest.cfm

Thank you Klipschaholic, That's a VERY interesting experiment, it actually verifies what I tell my customers when posed with this question. MAS, your probably not going to like my take on this subject, but, here goes.

Let's just eliminate the electric, This in my opinion should only be used when no other option is available (unfortunately cheep A$$ contractors think that an extra $200 bucks is the reason that there is No other option).

But looking at this from a "GREEN" perspective, I would prefer to keep mine in my pocket. Not to say that I'm not about conservation by any streatch(man I can't speel that word).

Look at cost, the last time I priced a whole house system, it went something like this. A typical 2 1/2 bath house, with a custom shower, can easily swallow 18 gallons of water per minute. (Remember we are American, we like to have the diswasher running, while we are watering the lawn, taking a shower, and doing a load of laundry). Soooo, You need to think about volume. Your going to need 3 units tied together in a series to handle that load. Then you have to have a computer controller to integrate them so they operate correctly. So not counting How much flu pipe your going to need, labor to install, or any other peripherials, your looking at $3800.00 Hard cost for the heaters and controller.

According to the attached study, you CAN expect a 64% decrease in usage. Or about a $15 per month savings, But wait, during the summer months, you have to pay a minimum hook up fee of $35 to $40 a month, and that covers a minimum amount of gas (kind of like a cell phone), you don't have to pay more until you go over minimum usage, so the only person that benifits from your $3800 investment is the gas company (during the summer months).

Ok, not counting the Minimum fee the gas company is going to charge every month, but using the $15 per month savings, you have to use your water heaters 14.4 years just to recover installation costs. Over purchasing what I have been installing for several years with FANTASTIC results. I recommend installing two 50 gal gas water heaters, IN SERIES, NOT PARALLEL. This will give you an endless supply of hot water because as you use minimal hot water, only the first water heater fires, not both. The only time the second water has to fire is when it calls for re-heating the 50 gals already in the tank (This is a very minimal amount of fuel used to achieve this), but when you require a large amount of hot water, the first water heater can pre-heat the incoming cold water to about 60 degrees, when that 60 degree water enters the second water heater, it can easily take the warmer water up to a desirable temperature( say 100 degrees), and you have not increased your current fuel usage by any great measurable amount over a single water heater.

Sooo, for me, I'll keep my "GREEN" in my pocket (until the technology cheapens to a more realistic cost.

[CECAA850]

Picky,

natural gas tankless water heaters are the way to go. If you have natural gas in the house already it's even easier. Plus with tankless water heaters you can even use them as part of a hydroheat system for the whole house.

Look at our website where you will find a test we ran on the Rinnai tankless unit.[D]

http://www.okaloosagas.com/appliances/waterHeaters/waterheatertest.cfm

According to your chart, I would save $8.16/month if I would have bought a tankless water heater instead of the conventional one that I have. Installation notwithstanding, it would take me over 10 years to see a savings once you factor in the price if the heaters (1300.00 vs 300.00). What's the warranty on those things anyway?

[CECAA850]

You type too fast plummer!!!!

[Klipsched with Yamahas]

My parents just got one installed about 6 mos ago.....and they love it!'

Propane!

[Groomlakearea51]

Put one in our office showers; limited the troops to 3 minute showers and are saving a boatload on electric bills. Neat technology.

[picky]

Wow! I seem to be getting very similar answers here, except from the only plumber in the bunch. No offense but it just seems like for you guys, old habits are hard to break. Nearly every Pro I have spoken with wants to sell me a 40 gallon tank instead. I've heard things from them like, we don't know much about them or we haven't installed many (yet they are full of advice) to, even if they install it for me they don't know who to call to service it if it breaks. My owner plumber, who I've been with for 25 years admitted to me that he thinks it's about time for him to educate himself on them. {sigh} I'm sure you all can understand my frustration with this; it's NOT ROCKET SCIENCE! Heck, my father in-law's 1959 Zenith 19 foot travel trailer had one of the darn things that ran on a standing pilot with propane. It never failed him in the shower!

I appreciate the advice about connecting two 50 gallon tanks in series and all, but allow me to put things into perspective here: There are 3 of us (mom is 88 and doesn't use as much water as we do) living in an 850 square foot bungalow that has a full bath on the main floor and a 3/4 bath in the basement. Both shower heads are restricted flow. We've NEVER run out of hot water with our 40-gallon tank even with both showers going. The most we'll ever have running at the same time are both showers or one shower and the washing machine or dishwasher. We'd never run 3 hot water appliances simultaneously. When you live in a small place like we do, one learns quickly to like within the available resources so a flow rate of only 7.4 will never be an issue with us. Our utility room is so tiny that we barely have room for the 40 gallon tank we have now, which is why we are looking to the tankless to free-up some footprint in there for storage space.

I am very good with tools and electricity. I just need to work on my sweat soldering. I've examined the installation procedure on the Rheem site which is very detailed and it talks about allowing for the condensation trap in the gas line that mas mentioned and installing unions and other features. I even have a spot on an outside basement wall where I could hang it and there is a hot water line and a 3/4" gas main nearby. I could direct vent it outside to the driveway right through the home's bond joist. My problem is that I am still laid up with my injured knees for the next month and I am physically not up to the task right now. It just makes me sick when I get these "cherry-picked', inflated estimates for the job from professionals, yet nobody wants to get off their smug arse and come out and give me an exact estimate. I'd prefer to have a pro do it so I know its done right, but because all they seem to want to do is *****-foot around, maybe I should just wait until I feel up to the job and do the darned installation myself for $1,000 bucks? I hate this crap!

I've lived in this house for nearly 30 years and this will be the third time I've replaced the tank-type water heater. The tankless type have various warranties on them, some for 5 years and some for 10 (15 on the burner) yet it's claimed they can last 20 years or more. Out of respect for professionals, I really hate to say this but, I am beginning to wonder if the over-inflated estimates are because the plumbers know that once they install one of these, they won't see you again for 20 years instead of the usual 7 to 10 years? If that is true, then their estimates are disingenuous! There's just not $1,500 worth of plumbing work there to install one of these things. My Lord; we had our whole house re-plumed with copper for less than that just a few years ago!

[mas]

Picky,

natural gas tankless water heaters are the way to go. If you have natural gas in the house already it's even easier. Plus with tankless water heaters you can even use them as part of a hydroheat system for the whole house.

Look at our website where you will find a test we ran on the Rinnai tankless unit.[D]

http://www.okaloosagas.com/appliances/waterHeaters/waterheatertest.cfm

Thank you Klipschaholic, That's a VERY interesting experiment, it actually verifies what I tell my customers when posed with this question. MAS, your probably not going to like my take on this subject, but, here goes.

Let's just eliminate the electric, This in my opinion should only be used when no other option is available (unfortunately cheep A$$ contractors think that an extra $200 bucks is the reason that there is No other option).

Eliminate whatever you like. MUCH of the country is electric only. So you simply eliminate those who do not have, or can not justify converting their house to gas. Insightful.

In any event, electric tankless is more efficient than electric tank water heaters.

But looking at this from a "GREEN" perspective, I would prefer to keep mine in my pocket. Not to say that I'm not about conservation by any streatch(man I can't speel that word).

Look at cost, the last time I priced a whole house system, it went something like this. A typical 2 1/2 bath house, with a custom shower, can easily swallow 18 gallons of water per minute. (Remember we are American, we like to have the diswasher running, while we are watering the lawn, taking a shower, and doing a load of laundry). I have yet another word for it, but you wouldn't like it! i8 gallon per minute showers!!!!!!? You've got to be kidding, or simply insane. And as far as a dishwasher that has an INTERNAL heater that we run once a day at night.And I love how you include watering your lawn. Call me strange, but around here we don't heat own lawn water. Soooo, You need to think about volume. Your going to need 3 units tied together in a series to handle that load. Then you have to have a computer controller to integrate them so they operate correctly. So not counting How much flu pipe your going to need, labor to install, or any other peripherials, your looking at $3800.00 Hard cost for the heaters and controller.

Absolute nonsense!

You install point source tankless heaters in line with the application. No computer control, they are activated by water being caused to flow with an ultra high tech control we call a "knob". Flow causes the unit to activate and wella! Hot water is delivered to the site! And As I am obviously unusual, we don't run the laundry and dish washer at the same time as showers even though dish washers have their own internal water heater as they do not depend upon line temperature water. I know, it takes lots of self control, but I have somehow managed! And if you have multiple site units, one load has no effect on another. Oh! But then I guess it must be that we don't heat our lawn water...[*-)]

According to the attached study, you CAN expect a 64% decrease in usage. Or about a $15 per month savings, But wait, during the summer months, you have to pay a minimum hook up fee of $35 to $40 a month This is more hilarious than the heated lawn water! We have no minimum hookup fee!, and that covers a minimum amount of gas (kind of like a cell phone), you don't have to pay more until you go over minimum usage, so the only person that benifits from your $3800 investment is the gas company (during the summer months). And your model assumes no heated water in the summer? Oh, so I guess you only water your lawn with heated water in the winter!

Ok, not counting the Minimum fee the gas company is going to charge every month, but using the $15 per month savings, you have to use your water heaters 14.4 years just to recover installation costs. Over purchasing what I have been installing for several years with FANTASTIC results. I recommend installing two 50 gal gas water heaters, IN SERIES, NOT PARALLEL. This will give you an endless supply of hot water because as you use minimal hot water, only the first water heater fires, not both. The only time the second water has to fire is when it calls for re-heating the 50 gals already in the tank (This is a very minimal amount of fuel used to achieve this), but when you require a large amount of hot water, the first water heater can pre-heat the incoming cold water to about 60 degrees, when that 60 degree water enters the second water heater, it can easily take the warmer water up to a desirable temperature( say 100 degrees), and you have not increased your current fuel usage by any great measurable amount over a single water heater.

Sooo, for me, I'll keep my "GREEN" in my pocket (until the technology cheapens to a more realistic cost.

This is hilarious!

A high capacity tankless water heater can be had for about $800. Including the cost of a valve, solder, flux, a flux brush, and a propane or butane torch, Your total investment may come to $1000. Compare this with the cost of a tank water heater and the continuing energy cost davings, there is a substantial savings. And series tank water heaters????????????

You need a new model based on the real world. But thanks for the grins!

[theplummer]

Wow! I seem to be getting very similar answers here, except from the only plumber in the bunch. No offense but it just seems like for you guys, old habits are hard to break. Nearly every Pro I have spoken with wants to sell me a 40 gallon tank instead. I've heard things from them like, we don't know much about them or we haven't installed many (yet they are full of advice) to, even if they install it for me they don't know who to call to service it if it breaks. My owner plumber, who I've been with for 25 years admitted to me that he thinks it's about time for him to educate himself on them. {sigh} I'm sure you all can understand my frustration with this; it's NOT ROCKET SCIENCE! Heck, my father in-law's 1959 Zenith 19 foot travel trailer had one of the darn things that ran on a standing pilot with propane. It never failed him in the shower!

I appreciate the advice about connecting two 50 gallon tanks in series and all, but allow me to put things into perspective here: There are 3 of us (mom is 88 and doesn't use as much water as we do) living in an 850 square foot bungalow that has a full bath on the main floor and a 3/4 bath in the basement. Both shower heads are restricted flow. We've NEVER run out of hot water with our 40-gallon tank even with both showers going. The most we'll ever have running at the same time are both showers or one shower and the washing machine or dishwasher. We'd never run 3 hot water appliances simultaneously. When you live in a small place like we do, one learns quickly to like within the available resources so a flow rate of only 7.4 will never be an issue with us. Our utility room is so tiny that we barely have room for the 40 gallon tank we have now, which is why we are looking to the tankless to free-up some footprint in there for storage space.

I am very good with tools and electricity. I just need to work on my sweat soldering. I've examined the installation procedure on the Rheem site which is very detailed and it talks about allowing for the condensation trap in the gas line that mas mentioned and installing unions and other features. I even have a spot on an outside basement wall where I could hang it and there is a hot water line and a 3/4" gas main nearby. I could direct vent it outside to the driveway right through the home's bond joist. My problem is that I am still laid up with my injured knees for the next month and I am physically not up to the task right now. It just makes me sick when I get these "cherry-picked', inflated estimates for the job from professionals, yet nobody wants to get off their smug arse and come out and give me an exact estimate. I'd prefer to have a pro do it so I know its done right, but because all they seem to want to do is *****-foot around, maybe I should just wait until I feel up to the job and do the darned installation myself for $1,000 bucks? I hate this crap!

I've lived in this house for nearly 30 years and this will be the third time I've replaced the tank-type water heater. The tankless type have various warranties on them, some for 5 years and some for 10 (15 on the burner) yet it's claimed they can last 20 years or more. Out of respect for professionals, I really hate to say this but, I am beginning to wonder if the over-inflated estimates are because the plumbers know that once they install one of these, they won't see you again for 20 years instead of the usual 7 to 10 years? If that is true, then their estimates are disingenuous! There's just not $1,500 worth of plumbing work there to install one of these things. My Lord; we had our whole house re-plumed with copper for less than that just a few years ago!

Picky, I'm sorry for giving you the answer you were looking for. Ultimately, its YOUR MONEY, SPEND IT ANY WAY YOU WANT TO. I thought you wanted a honest opinion from my knowledge. I consider the customers pocket book and comfort as paramount. The only thing I did not consider was the necessity for a smaller footprint. That would be the only time I would recommend a tankless water heater in todays current market. Because, if your wanting this exclusively for efficiency sake, your going to lose.

[wstrickland1]

dayumm, there are some real strong opinions about these things. We run the gas lines to them for a few of our builders and that's about all the experience I have with them. Rinnai and Bosch are pretty big here. Everyone I have come into contact with regarding their performance says the same thing and that is that they are single use heaters period. 2 people just can't take a shower (in seperate bathroom, that is) at the same time. You just have to adapt to that which isn't that hard since it's not like you have to wait until the water heats back up before person #2 (or 3 or even 4!) can shower. I grew with 7 brothers and sisters and remember the days of saying "oh sh!t" when I didn't get in the shower first. Also, when filling a large tub it's a good idea to fill the tub a little more slowly than you normally would, at least that's what the builders tell the customers. One of these things seem to work good for the average home, 2 IS better though.

[DizRotus]

Glenn-

My H2O heater sent a nice note of gratitude once, so I guess I cant comment on tank-less heaters.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />

[bodcaw boy]

well i hate to tattle tale but my two water heaters have never told me thanks for picking them and having them live in my house....

have a blesed night,

roy

[theplummer]

Wow! I seem to be getting very similar answers here, except from the only plumber in the bunch. No offense but it just seems like for you guys, old habits are hard to break. Nearly every Pro I have spoken with wants to sell me a 40 gallon tank instead. I've heard things from them like, we don't know much about them or we haven't installed many (yet they are full of advice) to, even if they install it for me they don't know who to call to service it if it breaks. My owner plumber, who I've been with for 25 years admitted to me that he thinks it's about time for him to educate himself on them. {sigh} I'm sure you all can understand my frustration with this; it's NOT ROCKET SCIENCE! Heck, my father in-law's 1959 Zenith 19 foot travel trailer had one of the darn things that ran on a standing pilot with propane. It never failed him in the shower!

I appreciate the advice about connecting two 50 gallon tanks in series and all, but allow me to put things into perspective here: There are 3 of us (mom is 88 and doesn't use as much water as we do) living in an 850 square foot bungalow that has a full bath on the main floor and a 3/4 bath in the basement. Both shower heads are restricted flow. We've NEVER run out of hot water with our 40-gallon tank even with both showers going. The most we'll ever have running at the same time are both showers or one shower and the washing machine or dishwasher. We'd never run 3 hot water appliances simultaneously. When you live in a small place like we do, one learns quickly to like within the available resources so a flow rate of only 7.4 will never be an issue with us. Our utility room is so tiny that we barely have room for the 40 gallon tank we have now, which is why we are looking to the tankless to free-up some footprint in there for storage space.

I am very good with tools and electricity. I just need to work on my sweat soldering. I've examined the installation procedure on the Rheem site which is very detailed and it talks about allowing for the condensation trap in the gas line that mas mentioned and installing unions and other features. I even have a spot on an outside basement wall where I could hang it and there is a hot water line and a 3/4" gas main nearby. I could direct vent it outside to the driveway right through the home's bond joist. My problem is that I am still laid up with my injured knees for the next month and I am physically not up to the task right now. It just makes me sick when I get these "cherry-picked', inflated estimates for the job from professionals, yet nobody wants to get off their smug arse and come out and give me an exact estimate. I'd prefer to have a pro do it so I know its done right, but because all they seem to want to do is *****-foot around, maybe I should just wait until I feel up to the job and do the darned installation myself for $1,000 bucks? I hate this crap!

I've lived in this house for nearly 30 years and this will be the third time I've replaced the tank-type water heater. The tankless type have various warranties on them, some for 5 years and some for 10 (15 on the burner) yet it's claimed they can last 20 years or more. Out of respect for professionals, I really hate to say this but, I am beginning to wonder if the over-inflated estimates are because the plumbers know that once they install one of these, they won't see you again for 20 years instead of the usual 7 to 10 years? If that is true, then their estimates are disingenuous! There's just not $1,500 worth of plumbing work there to install one of these things. My Lord; we had our whole house re-plumed with copper for less than that just a few years ago!

Picky, I'm sorry for not giving you the answer you were looking for. Ultimately, its YOUR MONEY, SPEND IT ANY WAY YOU WANT TO. I thought you wanted a honest opinion from my knowledge. I consider the customers pocket book and comfort as paramount. The only thing I did not consider was the necessity for a smaller footprint. That would be the only time I would recommend a tankless water heater in todays current market. Because, if your wanting this exclusively for efficiency sake, your going to lose.

With regards to having to replace water heaters every 7 to 10 years, I'm willing to bet your currently using electric water heaters, and you have extremely hard water, just like my region. The obvious remedy, install a water softener, problem solved! My father has had his electric water heater for 20 years and has NEVER NEEDEED SERVICING. But, If you go conventional gas, and don't have a water softener, expect your water heater to last much longer, as there is no internal heat source causing calcium to boil out of the water, which is most likely the cause of your water heater failures in the first place. If you just install a 50 gallon Gas water heater, you will save more in reduced electric bills in less than a year to pay for the gas water heater, I've proven that one to myself years ago. I used to have a electric water heater and my electric bills were $130 per month ( and that was with a Gas furnace). My water heater crapped out and I installed a 50 gallon Gas water heater and my electic bills dropped to $40 per month, and at that time, the Gas company charged $28 per month minimum fee and during the summer, my new gas water heater did not use more than the minimum fee for the entire month. The only time the gas bill was more than $28 per month was when the furnace was running.

With regards to the extreme estimates you've received, Its the industry standard for estimating, to take actual material costs and double that total. 50% material costs and 50% labor. That's pretty much the way it works. Now, if you could find a plumber that is willing to work on time and material, for this particular job, you might be way ahead. As long as you can trust the integrity of the Plumber, so he's not going to slack while he's on your time. That's the downside to hiring someone on T&M.

[oldtimer]

last year I replaced my water heater which was original to the house (1984). I went from a 40 gal to a 50 gal. Todays units are so much more efficient that now I have plenty of hot water and less of a bill. 6 months later I did the same with my heat pump a/c heating unit (all electric at my place) and going from a seer 7 to a seer 13 has been amazing. Rates are higher but my bill is lower. The problem with my water heater was a deteriorating dip tube. Sure, I could have just fixed it, but I am not sorry for replacing the whole thing with a much more efficient unit. I looked into tankless electric, but they are not as efficient as gas ones, and the pressure reduction they cause (anecdotal evidence) was enough to drive my wife away from the idea. Part of the added cost of the electric tankless had to do with running a higher amp circuit and its wiring to fuel the thing. We wanted to free up space at our small house too, but it's done, it works, and my showers are hot too.

[sunburnwilly]

When I lived in Az my landlord had a solar aray to power the water heater . She had also instaled a water softener . " In Phx the water is very hard ." I was just renting a room from her so I never saw the electric bill , but she was happy with the results .

[theplummer]

Picky,

natural gas tankless water heaters are the way to go. If you have natural gas in the house already it's even easier. Plus with tankless water heaters you can even use them as part of a hydroheat system for the whole house.

Look at our website where you will find a test we ran on the Rinnai tankless unit.[D]

http://www.okaloosagas.com/appliances/waterHeaters/waterheatertest.cfm

Thank you Klipschaholic, That's a VERY interesting experiment, it actually verifies what I tell my customers when posed with this question. MAS, your probably not going to like my take on this subject, but, here goes.

Let's just eliminate the electric, This in my opinion should only be used when no other option is available (unfortunately cheep A$$ contractors think that an extra $200 bucks is the reason that there is No other option).

Eliminate whatever you like. MUCH of the country is electric only. So you simply eliminate those who do not have, or can not justify converting their house to gas. Insightful.

The only reason I eliminated the conversation about electric was because I was trying to limit my response, if I included every point of this conversation, my response would be as long and boring as your usually are. Besides, Propane is available everywhere electric is, and for this arguement, Natural gas and Propane are interchangeable.

In any event, electric tankless is more efficient than electric tank water heaters. Maybe so, but they do not allow the volume necessary to actually have a comfortable shower.

You obviously have no knowledg in this field because you cannot compare a simple point source water heater with the sofistication of the Renii that Picky is looking at.

But looking at this from a "GREEN" perspective, I would prefer to keep mine in my pocket. Not to say that I'm not about conservation by any streatch(man I can't speel that word).

Look at cost, the last time I priced a whole house system, it went something like this. A typical 2 1/2 bath house, with a custom shower, can easily swallow 18 gallons of water per minute. (Remember we are American, we like to have the diswasher running, while we are watering the lawn, taking a shower, and doing a load of laundry). I have yet another word for it, but you wouldn't like it! i8 gallon per minute showers!!!!!!?

Iwas refering to a whole house draw if all hot water fixtures were turned on at once, not just the shower, (although I did install a custom shower recently that does use 18 gallons of water a minute. And incidentally, he asked for the tankless version also, He wasn't willing to pay the extra to go tankless either.)

You've got to be kidding, or simply insane. (Oh, this is constructive, resorting to insults instead of re-inforcing your argument, oh wait, this post is from MAS, it's to be expected.) And as far as a dishwasher that has an INTERNAL heater that we run once a day .

Look under your kitchen sink, you'll see its hooked to the hot supply, if it's not, its connected WRONG. The internal heater is for extra heating for extremely dirty dishes and Is very inefficient.

at night.And I love how you include watering your lawn.

I admit this was a fopaw on my part, and I did not catch it until I hit "Post". What I was trying to convey is that we americans like to use multiple water usage at the same time, unlike Europeans whom use one fixture at a time, Point source is very acceptable there, not well received in america, without adding extreme capacity.

Call me strange, but around here we don't heat own lawn water. Soooo, You need to think about volume. Your going to need 3 units tied together in a series to handle that load. Then you have to have a computer controller to integrate them so they operate correctly. So not counting How much flu pipe your going to need, labor to install, or any other peripherials, your looking at $3800.00 Hard cost for the heaters and controller.

Absolute nonsense!

You install point source tankless heaters in line with the application. No computer control, they are activated by water being caused to flow with an ultra high tech control we call a "knob". Flow causes the unit to activate and wella! Hot water is delivered to the site! And As I am obviously unusual, we don't run the laundry and dish washer at the same time as showers even though dish washers have their own internal water heater as they do not depend upon line temperature water. I know, it takes lots of self control, but I have somehow managed! And if you have multiple site units, one load has no effect on another. Oh! But then I guess it must be that we don't heat our lawn water...[*-)]

According to the attached study, you CAN expect a 64% decrease in usage. Or about a $15 per month savings, But wait, during the summer months, you have to pay a minimum hook up fee of $35 to $40 a month This is more hilarious than the heated lawn water! We have no minimum hookup fee!

Your VERY lucky, most parts of the country DO have minimum fees for having the privilage of buying gas.

, and that covers a minimum amount of gas (kind of like a cell phone), you don't have to pay more until you go over minimum usage, so the only person that benifits from your $3800 investment is the gas company (during the summer months). And your model assumes no heated water in the summer? Oh, so I guess you only water your lawn with heated water in the winter!

Ok, not counting the Minimum fee the gas company is going to charge every month, but using the $15 per month savings, you have to use your water heaters 14.4 years just to recover installation costs. Over purchasing what I have been installing for several years with FANTASTIC results. I recommend installing two 50 gal gas water heaters, IN SERIES, NOT PARALLEL. This will give you an endless supply of hot water because as you use minimal hot water, only the first water heater fires, not both. The only time the second water has to fire is when it calls for re-heating the 50 gals already in the tank (This is a very minimal amount of fuel used to achieve this), but when you require a large amount of hot water, the first water heater can pre-heat the incoming cold water to about 60 degrees, when that 60 degree water enters the second water heater, it can easily take the warmer water up to a desirable temperature( say 100 degrees), and you have not increased your current fuel usage by any great measurable amount over a single water heater.

Sooo, for me, I'll keep my "GREEN" in my pocket (until the technology cheapens to a more realistic cost.

This is hilarious!

A high capacity tankless water heater can be had for about $800. Including the cost of a valve, solder, flux, a flux brush, and a propane or butane torch, Your total investment may come to $1000. Compare this with the cost of a tank water heater and the continuing energy cost davings, there is a substantial savings. And series tank water heaters????????????

You need a new model based on the real world. But thanks for the grins!

Already answered in previous post to Picky.

Mas, one thing I've found by lurking here. Your always ready for a fight. Dude, Have a coke and a smile! It's all good man.