Of speaker cables and interconnects......

[Bonzo]

I will admit that I have always been skeptical with the benefits of mega-dollar speaker cables, inter-connects and power cords. Something happened yesterday that has changed my mind somewhat.

I finally got a chance to do some critical listening to my recently aquired box stock Chorus I's. After a few quality recordings, I noticed some pronounced hissing mainly on lyrics ending in SSSSSSS...... I thought it was very annoying and hadn't noticed that with the Forte's. I swapped the Bob Crites titanium diaphragms from the Forte to the Chorus which did help but only a bit. I should note I do have K-stack crossovers on order. The inter-connects and cables I was using were silver plated copper from E-Ticket cables. I dug through an old box of wires and found two pairs of Straighwire inter-connects and some heavily shielded Monter cable speaker cables terminated with bannans. Forgot I even had them. The Straightwires are .5 meter Symphony II and 1 meter Chours, a coincidence I'm sure, respectively. The Monsters are Powerline 2 plus.

I ran the Symphony II's between the Anthem pre and Parasound amp, Chorus to the DAC and of course Monters to the speakers. I fired it all up and PRESTO, hissing gone! I don't know if it was just one set of cables that did the trick or a combination but I was nearly shocked on how this cleaned up the sound, especially the vocals. Now I'm not going to go out and spend a couple grand on better wire but I am almost a believer.

I am curious about others inter-connect/speaker cable/power cord combinations and results. Any recomendation on good replacement power cords would be appreciated.

Thanks,

Mark

[PrestonTom]

It is good to be skeptical .....

The connection between your pre-amp and amp is relatively high impedance. As such, it can be susceptible to picking up noise (both hum & hiss). The difference in shielding will effect this. As well as the cable length and any other (power) cords it might be laying on top of. Additionally some cables will have a shield (not carrying the signal return) tied to the ground (carrying the signal return). If this is done it should only be tied on one side (toward the source).

The other factor is the capacitance of the cable. This should be low, otherwise you can create a low pass filter (1/ 2* pi * R * C). An appreciable C could be generated by the cable. Normally the R is not a problem unless you are using a "passive" pre-amp or perhaps some tube equipment. It is only under some rather specific circumstances that this filtering could be manifested at audio frequencies. Some idiot manufacturers will actually put an inductor in series with the cable in order to give it a "warm sound" (i.e., low pass filtering). BTW, expensive cables are not necessarily low capacitance.

So yes, cables can sound different. This can be less uncommon in some oddball configurations (some noted above). However, cables with low capacitance need not be exotic and certainly do not need to be expensive. The boutique manufacturers will typically not provide the specs incidentally. As far as keeping the cable length short and properly routed, this is the user's responsibility.

There is absolutely no reason to spend much money on cables. It does require careful shopping or DIY construction. Although you were able to hear the difference, I can only guess what the culprit was (routing, length, shield, capacitance, etc), in most cases there will not be an audible difference. I am skeptical whether the "fanciness" or the price of cable had much to do with it.

I am taking the time to write this because I hate to see people spend money on the "wrong" things

Good Luck,

-Tom

[Bonzo]

Hey Tom,

Thanks so much for your educated insight, I do appreciate it! My previous cables did not appear to be well insulated and there are a bunch of power cords behind my rack, kind of a rats nest. I will take the time today to separate the power cords from the cables as best I can. I have read the quality of the electrical system, outlets etc., in individual homes can have an effect on sound. Any truth to that or more "snake oil?"

Mark

[seti]

I went crazy trying to figure out why a certain David Byrne song did the same thing to me.... But after swapping everything under the sun it was the recording....

[PrestonTom]

Hey Tom,

Thanks so much for your educated insight, I do appreciate it! My previous cables did not appear to be well insulated and there are a bunch of power cords behind my rack, kind of a rats nest. I will take the time today to separate the power cords from the cables as best I can. I have read the quality of the electrical system, outlets etc., in individual homes can have an effect on sound. Any truth to that or more "snake oil?"

Mark

Thank you for the complement, but I sometimes wonder how educated I really am.

Unfortunately a great deal of voodoo gets tossed in with the physics...

Regarding the power issues. Folks usually convolve three separate issues. 1) surge protection, 2) conditioning (voltage drops) and 3) grounding. Not surprisingly, the solutions are different also.

My experience has been that surge protection is fairly inexpensive (unless lightening strikes your home). By all means include this.

Power conditioning (and filtering) is usually not necessary. IMO this is because electronic components have decent power supplies and if they are well-designed (and the components are drawing moderate or more amounts current) they will have big transformers, rectifiers and huge capacitors. If the voltage varies a few volts for a brief period of time, they should be able to handle that. However, if the drop is greater than that or drops for a prolonged time, the measures would need to be heroic. These are not usually incorporated in the power gizmos that consumers will buy. There may be some role for isolation (transformer) if there is a problem.

The last issue is grounding or hum. This again is typically a matter of how you hook up & cable the components. Usually, other measures (expensive ones) are typically not required. There are exceptions of course. Proper shielding in the cables goes along way. RFI filtering is sometimes required, but again if this required it does need to be expensive. Some problems (hiss) may also may tackled by replacing cheap light dimmers in some cases.

When you get nto the issue of power cords and fancy outlets ... please give me a break.

That said, there are serious & real issues with power requirements and set ups in a laboratory or studio. This is a different animal and is not a good example for home audio. Basically the difference between the two environments is the required electrical demands (studios and labs have lots of stuff and some of it requiring huge amounts of current). The other and more important issue is that the noise floor in a lab or studio is quite a bit lower than what you will find in your living room. The ambient noise in your house (and even your HT room) is typically huge. That noise floor would mask many of the possible benefits that folks might gain.

Good Luck,

-Tom

[Chicago_Pete]

It is good to be skeptical .....

The connection between your pre-amp and amp is relatively high impedance. As such, it can be susceptible to picking up noise (both hum & hiss). The difference in shielding will effect this. As well as the cable length and any other (power) cords it might be laying on top of. Additionally some cables will have a shield (not carrying the signal return) tied to the ground (carrying the signal return). If this is done it should only be tied on one side (toward the source).

The other factor is the capacitance of the cable. This should be low, otherwise you can create a low pass filter (1/ 2* pi * R * C). An appreciable C could be generated by the cable. Normally the R is not a problem unless you are using a "passive" pre-amp or perhaps some tube equipment. It is only under some rather specific circumstances that this filtering could be manifested at audio frequencies. Some idiot manufacturers will actually put an inductor in series with the cable in order to give it a "warm sound" (i.e., low pass filtering). BTW, expensive cables are not necessarily low capacitance.

So yes, cables can sound different. This can be less uncommon in some oddball configurations (some noted above). However, cables with low capacitance need not be exotic and certainly do not need to be expensive. The boutique manufacturers will typically not provide the specs incidentally. As far as keeping the cable length short and properly routed, this is the user's responsibility.

There is absolutely no reason to spend much money on cables. It does require careful shopping or DIY construction. Although you were able to hear the difference, I can only guess what the culprit was (routing, length, shield, capacitance, etc), in most cases there will not be an audible difference. I am skeptical whether the "fanciness" or the price of cable had much to do with it.

I am taking the time to write this because I hate to see people spend money on the "wrong" things

Good Luck,

-Tom

 

Best explanation I have ever read. Thanks Tom!

[Bonzo]

Very much agreed Pete, that's one for the archives!

Thanks again Tom and kuddos! It's so easy to get caught up in all the tweak/gadget hype. It's so nice to hear a profound voice of reason!

[Guest " "]

Designer wire is made to sound different thru the manipulation of inductance, capacitance and resistance. 

Thats what your paying for.

My monster 2.2 cables have a proprietary network termination circut on each end.  I don't have a capacitance meter or inductance meter, but I can tell you with no speakers and amps attached, the cables has a parallel  impedance of 100 ohms.  This means it could have 200 ohms of something across each end.  The straight thru resistance is below the 0 scale of my ohm meter.  Parallel impedance meaning across the 2 wires...not that each wire has 100 or 200 ohms of resistance.

My monster sigma retro's have the same arrangement.

If I wanted to make a super-speaker cable or interconnect, it would be a band pass device that filtered out frequencies below and above what I could hear.  No sense in pumping heat to my speakers.  Does such a super cable exist...I don't think so...but these high end designer cables are manipulating inductance, resistance, and capacitance.

So back to your senerio....could the change be due to cable quality...sure if there is potential for noise to enter the cables thru the cable sheilding.   

Could the change be due to variances in inductance, capacitance, or resistance of the cables that where done intentionally by the manufacture.....sure.

Could the change be due to simply removing any cable and replacing with any cable....basically knocking off corrosion....sure that could also be the case.

[Bonzo]

I'm sure there is a lot of research, science and technology that goes into the high end cables that I can't even begin to understand. I know all of that does cost money but, how much is too much? Is there a simple formula that says if you spend "A" for all of your equipment, you should spend "B" on cables and inter-connects? The old rule of thumb, as I remember, was to spend at least as much on your speakers as you did on the rest of the equipment, cable was pretty generic. Hell, most tables had their interconnects hard-wired. I just can't see paying $3,000 for a set of inter-connects that may give you 10% better sound than a $50 cable.

[Guest " "]

" I just can't see paying $3,000 for a set of inter-connects that may give you 10% better sound than a $50 cable."

if list is 3000, then you can buy it on audiogon or ebay for 800.  i.e. Monster Sigma Retro, list is 3000, you can buy on audigon for 900 or less any day of the week.

probally not worth it unless we are talking about a 50k and above system.

Monster M1, M.75 can be bought for 50 bucks or less....list on those was 250 back in the late 80's.

But for most use's, Radio Shack has monster HPXP on clearance often for 9 bucks.  List is 39.

The Monster HPXP stuff is closer to what Klipsch put on their AK-4 boards for connection to drivers.

Klipsch stopped using lamp cord.

[Bonzo]

Thanks for the info spekerfritz, you obviously know your wire. You bring up an interesting question, to me anyway. If you upgrade to higher quality and/or larger gauge speaker cable from the amp to the speakers, shouldn't you upgrade the speakers internal wiring also? I think Chris, popbumper, uses 14 gauge copper wire with his K-stack crossovers which seem to work fine. I have seen 12 gauge Monster Cable on K-horn crosses. Probably tough to solder larger wire onto a circuit board unless you are using connectors? It appears the internal wiring in my speakers, Forte I's and Chorus I's, are 18 gauge? They sound pretty good to me but, maybe I'm missing something?

[zuzu]

I had a very good sounding system, see below. I switched from some pretty good interconnects to Kingcat silver IC's. Stunning improvement!!! About $200 for a 1 meter set. A real wow factor. I have no affiliation with Doug who has Cat Cables. Nice guy. One man operation.

[Erik Mandaville]

Shielding can be a problem. As Tom said, it's also my opinion that it is not necessary to spend considerable money on cable and wire. Coaxial can be problematic because the shield MUST be grounded at both ends. Instead of shielding, it can act as an antenna and introduce noise into the audio.

I've made several pair of cables using what I've included in the link, and ground the shield at one end, only. Very inexpensive, good quality cable. The zobel networks designed into some high-cost models might be good in some instances, but not necessarily others.

http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=100-225

Erik

[Deang]

"Past practice indicates future behavior."
David Grossman,
Lt. Col., US Army, retired

Must be an Army thing, most learn from their mistakes.

[dkp]

"Past practice indicates future behavior."

David Grossman,

Lt. Col., US Army, retired

Must be an Army thing, most learn from their mistakes.

[] lol, nice

[Bonzo]

"Past practice indicates future behavior."

David Grossman,

Lt. Col., US Army, retired

Must be an Army thing, most learn from their mistakes.

I have been in Law Enforcement for 27 years in the same county and I can tell you that Col. Grossman's statement holds true for much of the population. Not only individuals but families fail to learn from their mistakes. I am seeing third generation members of a lot families I dealt with as a rookie patrolman. There are three adult girls currently in our jail that I placed into protective custody over 20 years ago. Don't get me started on CPS, Childrens "Protective" Services! Anyway, they are in for the same thing their parents came to jail for, welfare fraud, dope, theft etc. The recidivism rate is astounding, especially in those who may not be "wired" correctly in the first place such as habitual child molestors. If they did it yesterday, chances are they will do it tomorrow.

I am certainly not saying this applies to all but we are creatures of habit. Everyday I get up, turn on the coffee, read the newspaper, go to work etc. etc.etc.

[Deang]

Depressing.

[Ki Choi]

There was a Analog vs Digital challenge gathering in Seattle back in June. The outcome of the challenge is another story but during the shootout (do the search on Vinyl Asylum), Mike, the host, had the very best Transparent interconnects (~$12K/pair) and speaker cables (~$30K/pair - he had two pairs...) in his system that created problem in the playback mode. It was one of the pairs of fancy interconnects that caused the problem and they were replaced by 10 yr old Monster interconnect cables ($200 max?), my friend John had brought with him. It was nice...and the challenge continued.

My guess is that the fancy lump (the network) in the middle of the Transparent interconnect was the source of the problem.

Talking about cables is like arguing about politics and religions... You do whatever makes you happy and don't try to convince others with what you believe... I usually let my ears make the call... I have had bad cables in my system but no fancy cables or wires made my system sound any better than what it's made to sound like - just nice sound with nothing to take away or to add. I let my tubes do the magic in making it nicer than what the way the music was recorded.

Ki

[Islander]

"Past practice indicates future behavior."

David Grossman,

Lt. Col., US Army, retired

Must be an Army thing, most learn from their mistakes.

I have been in Law Enforcement for 27 years in the same county and I can tell you that Col. Grossman's statement holds true for much of the population. Not only individuals but families fail to learn from their mistakes. I am seeing third generation members of a lot families I dealt with as a rookie patrolman. There are three adult girls currently in our jail that I placed into protective custody over 20 years ago. Don't get me started on CPS, Childrens "Protective" Services! Anyway, they are in for the same thing their parents came to jail for, welfare fraud, dope, theft etc. The recidivism rate is astounding, especially in those who may not be "wired" correctly in the first place such as habitual child molestors. If they did it yesterday, chances are they will do it tomorrow.

I am certainly not saying this applies to all but we are creatures of habit. Everyday I get up, turn on the coffee, read the newspaper, go to work etc. etc.etc.

Sometimes I think it's a cultural thing, local to a neighbourhood, in that if your family, friends and neighbours don't think crime is wrong, you probably won't, either. "Why don't the cops leave us alone? All we did was (fill in the crime). What's their problem?" Some of these folks never learn proper values, nor even that they're responsible for their actions. When I talk to IV drug users as I evict them from our parking lot, asking them why they do what they do, they'll ask, "You think I choose to live this way?" Their life is not what they do, it's what happens to them. I don't understand that thinking at all. It's very sad to see these people ruining their lives, as well as doing crimes to pay for it.

[Guest " "]

"If you upgrade to higher quality and/or larger gauge speaker cable from the amp to the speakers, shouldn't you upgrade the speakers internal wiring also"

Klipsch, as well as other manufacture's have do that. Later Khorns and LaScala's that I have seen, have designer wire. What ever the reason..it's there.

The 60's I bought recently certainly have higher end wire.

But.....the issues of consumer grade designer wire is not just conductor qualities of the copper in the 3000 dollar wire vs the conductor qualities in the copper wire in a 10 dollar wire.

These designer wires are designed to manipulate the transmission thru the build method of the wire......coiling with surface insulation changes inductance, insulators change capacitance, parrallel inductors/resistors change impedance.

Easy way of thinking of this is the band pass model. Design a wire that rolls off frequencies below 10hz (parallel inductance), and rolls off frequencies above human hearing 18khz - 20khz (parallel capacitance), put a proper load on those devices, and the end result is a wire that sends less heat to your speakers.

More than just a case of lamp cord vs towing wire.