Zen Traveler Posted September 17, 2007 Share Posted September 17, 2007 MAS/DRAGONFYR... [] ;-) [H] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Professor Thump Posted September 17, 2007 Share Posted September 17, 2007 Amy, You are a lot cuter than the bouncers in the bars I used to work at. Amy Unger, Chief bouncer of the Forum and resident beauty... [] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Amy Posted September 17, 2007 Moderators Share Posted September 17, 2007 Thanks, Thump. Now I feel guilty about what I wrote in my daily pic blog today... [:$] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daddy Dee Posted September 17, 2007 Share Posted September 17, 2007 Thanks, Thump. Now I feel guilty about what I wrote in my daily pic blog today... [:$] Amy, don't worry. You get a special dispensation today. Go, and sin no more.[] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arky Posted September 17, 2007 Share Posted September 17, 2007 MAS/DRAGONFYR, Well I be doggone, i'm so gullible.[*-)] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfogg Posted September 17, 2007 Share Posted September 17, 2007 "You cannot use an equalizer to modify the slope of a crossover. " Flip flopping back to your original position then? I have already posted measured data showing that EQ is modifying the slope of a crossover. Argue against this all you want you will continue to be wrong. "In short, you cannot use EQ to perform any of what you referred. " Also still wrong since one can obviously use EQ to modify the slope of a crossover. And if the slope of a crossover changes so too does the comb filtering between drivers which also alters the polar response of the system. "And minimizing the inter-source distance and Increasing the alignment in one plane does NOT increase the misalignment in another plane.Your assertion that placing two drivers closer together on one plane makes them further apart in another plane is WRONG. " Changing the argument again I see. We have not been talking about changing inter-source distance, we have been discussing using delay to the existing inter-source distance. Changing inter-source distance can alter the relationship between drivers in three dimensions. Signal delay only works in one dimension. Anyone with a couple of colored pencils and a compass could demonstrate what I said to you in that adding signal delay improves the situation in some places and makes it worse in others. Put two points on a piece of paper representing two drivers. Use the compass to draw two same diameter circles around those points. The points of intersection between the circles are places the signals are equidistant from the two points... at those points the signal is naturally time aligned between the two drivers. Now use 'delay' to in effect move one point backwards and draw a new circle around the delayed point. The locations that were time algined no longer are and new locations become time aligned. Delay makes the signal alignment better in some areas (listening position hopefully) and worse in others for non-coincident sources. Shawn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colterphoto1 Posted September 17, 2007 Share Posted September 17, 2007 we knew all along.....but thanks for clarifying Amy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jacksonbart Posted September 17, 2007 Share Posted September 17, 2007 How do you do? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Klipsched with Yamahas Posted September 17, 2007 Share Posted September 17, 2007 All I have to say is try tuning a vehicle w/o an EQ and observe how it sounds! EQ's do serve a valuable purpose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluesboy Posted September 17, 2007 Share Posted September 17, 2007 Amy, You are a lot cuter than the bouncers in the bars I used to work at. Amy Unger, Chief bouncer of the Forum and resident beauty... [] Dittos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pauln Posted September 17, 2007 Share Posted September 17, 2007 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boom3 Posted September 18, 2007 Share Posted September 18, 2007 How do you do? Do A Trick, Cheech! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mas Posted September 26, 2007 Author Share Posted September 26, 2007 How do you do? Do A Trick, Cheech! We did. We attempted to present information regarding a commonly misunderstood topic on a site where topics in acoustical physics are often determined more by social consensus than by validity of fact. If one re-reads the article, they will discover a fundamental understanding of the difference between minimum phase and non-minimum phase relationships, and hence the acknowledgment that EQ can be applied in a limited number of stages, along with perhaps the nore important understanding of where EQ is eliminated as an appropriate method of resolution. The point of the article was to illustrate the importance of understanding both the environment as well as of the limits of technology. And it is a valuable lesson that all would benefit from understanding. The fact that the stated filter methods (complete with pictures that must make them true) are ONLY valid for minimum phase systems does not validate their use in non-minimum phase conditions. And the major Heritage speaker systems, as well as acoustical spaces with reflected signals, are non-minimum phase environments. Thus, their proper use is severely restricted. If anyone is interested in a more detailed article on the use of FIR and IIR filters, complete with an even more complete set of illuminating pictures, and statements regarding their appropriate application as well as their limitations for use in non-minimum phase environments, PM me. Oh, and one might want to visit Jim Brown's website and peruse his list of papers and many AES publications. I must admit that it is a bit funny to watch some so quickly dismiss the sources from whence such information comes without their knowing anything about the sources. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bodcaw boy Posted September 26, 2007 Share Posted September 26, 2007 heeeee's baaaaaack! have a blessed day mas, roy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mas Posted September 26, 2007 Author Share Posted September 26, 2007 heeeee's baaaaaack! have a blessed day mas, roy Actually I never left. And may I ask a favor, as I certainly wouldn't want to try to hijack a thread that I began... I notice that you post as an official Klipsch representative, but you seldom offer anything of technical merit and instead seem to only post smart aleck comments aimed at people when you are not dispensing your own personal beliefs. With regards to your personal beliefs, you dispense them for your own benefit. With regards to technical issues, may I request that if you wish to post in this thread that you address the topic at hand, be it 1.) the use of EQ in non-minimum phase environments, the use of passive crossovers on non-minimum phase speakers with significant acoustical center offsets often measured in feet (in fact, so substantial that their arrival postdates the arrival of early order reflections as identified by Richard Heyser.), and 2.) why the commercial versions of Klipsch products with significant acoustical center offsets provide such information augmenting and assuming the use of active crossovers with signal delay, but the same information has historically not been made available for the Heritage line, and 3.) the advantages and disadvantages of the use of passive crossovers (several of which are routinely referenced for sale here in excess of $1000) compared to active crossovers with signal delay (which can in many cases be purchased for significantly less) for such systems. None of these topics has heretofore been addressed by Klipsch. It not only would constitute a change; it would be a welcome addition...You might even call such an event a "miracle". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnA Posted September 26, 2007 Share Posted September 26, 2007 Is your name Al? [:#] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zen Traveler Posted September 26, 2007 Share Posted September 26, 2007 heeeee's baaaaaack! have a blessed day mas, roy Actually I never left. ...I notice that you post as an official Klipsch representative, but you seldom offer anything of technical merit and instead seem to only post smart aleck comments aimed at people when you are not dispensing your own personal beliefs... MAN...This stuff's priceless in a sophomoric kind of way. I absolutely love reading mas arrogantly chastising someone with no humility at all--It's great! [H] I also appreciate some of the responses to him on the subject(s) at hand. Most of it is above my head but watching you guys debate helps me think about the right questions to ask and try to filter the correct answer through all of the entertainment. [8-|] Thanks for sharing. ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bodcaw boy Posted September 26, 2007 Share Posted September 26, 2007 heeeee's baaaaaack! have a blessed day mas, roy Actually I never left. And may I ask a favor, as I certainly wouldn't want to try to hijack a thread that I began... I notice that you post as an official Klipsch representative, but you seldom offer anything of technical merit and instead seem to only post smart aleck comments aimed at people when you are not dispensing your own personal beliefs. With regards to your personal beliefs, you dispense them for your own benefit. With regards to technical issues, may I request that if you wish to post in this thread that you address the topic at hand, be it 1.) the use of EQ in non-minimum phase environments, the use of passive crossovers on non-minimum phase speakers with significant acoustical center offsets often measured in feet (in fact, so substantial that their arrival postdates the arrival of early order reflections as identified by Richard Heyser.), and 2.) why the commercial versions of Klipsch products with significant acoustical center offsets provide such information augmenting and assuming the use of active crossovers with signal delay, but the same information has historically not been made available for the Heritage line, and 3.) the advantages and disadvantages of the use of passive crossovers (several of which are routinely referenced for sale here in excess of $1000) compared to active crossovers with signal delay (which can in many cases be purchased for significantly less) for such systems. None of these topics has heretofore been addressed by Klipsch. It not only would constitute a change; it would be a welcome addition...You might even call such an event a "miracle". have a blessed and miraculous day, roy oh oh! i hear amy coming!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mas Posted September 26, 2007 Author Share Posted September 26, 2007 For those who like pictures, I hope you enjoy this. Note that the filters work great in a minimum phase environment. Unfortunately they do not work in a non-minimum phase environment. And neither the Klipsch Heritage, nor room acoustics (other than an anechoic chamber) are minimum phase. Thus, they have limited application in suc an environment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mas Posted September 26, 2007 Author Share Posted September 26, 2007 And here is an application note from the developer of the 1/3 octave equalizer while employed at Altec specifically addressing limitations of the use of EQ in a non-minimum phase environment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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