The Ultimate KHorn Amplifier .... Is there one?

[mas]

[

Have you been a d**k your whole life? Or is this a trait you've just recently acquired?

Never really fancied ducks...

It seems to me that you are the only one initiating attacks on others here while I just made a light hearted response...Rather like answering the question, "what is the opposite of left?", with "taken". But I suspect you won't get that either.

But, just think, with you as a mentor I can aspire to the level of cretanism that you embody! Such lofty aspirations!

[3Fates]

I am using a Supratek Chenin preamplifier with the McIntosh MC-240. In the past, I had used the McIntosh MX-110 preamplier/tuner but that is no where near the Supratek in performance. Sources are currently a Denon DP-62L turntable with a Denon DL-103R cartridge, an Akai reel-to-reel, and a Sansui tuner. I generally don't play CD's except in the car sometimes.

[bluesboy]

[

Have you been a d**k your whole life? Or is this a trait you've just recently acquired?

Never really fancied ducks...

It seems to me that you are the only one initiating attacks on others here while I just made a harmless smart aleck response...Rather like answering the question, "what is the opposite of left?" with "taken". But I suspect you won't get that either.

But, just think, with you as a mentor I can aspire to the level of cretanism that you embody! Such lofty aspirations!

Mas,

That wasn't an attack, merely an observation. I'm sure a few other members are sick and tired or your constant BS.

[mas]

Have you been a d**k your whole life?

That wasn't an attack, merely an observation.

A linguistic wizard! Have you ever worked for Microsoft? (eg: Thats not a bug, that's an undocumented feature...)

...At least you have an ample personal understanding of that which you claim to 'observe' in others.

If you will illucidate further as to just what you dislike, I will aspire to do it much more often....just for you.

Mwaaaaaaaaah!

"...Not an attack...", hmmmmm...I guess its just some of that Southern charm espoused by a member of a limited gene pool. Say 'hey' to the family for me.

[mas]

Have you been a d**k your whole life?

That wasn't an attack, merely an observation.

A linguistic wizard! Have you ever worked for Microsoft? (eg: Thats not a bug, that's an undocumented feature...)

...At least you have an ample personal understanding of that which you claim to 'observe' in others.

If you will illucidate further as to just what you dislike, I will aspire to do it much more often....just for you.

"...Not an attack...", hmmmmm...I guess its just some of that Southern charm espoused by a member of a limited gene pool. Say 'hey' to the family for me.

Mwaaaaaaaaah!

[Chicago_Pete]

I am using a Supratek Chenin preamplifier with the McIntosh MC-240. In the past, I had used the McIntosh MX-110 preamplier/tuner but that is no where near the Supratek in performance. Sources are currently a Denon DP-62L turntable with a Denon DL-103R cartridge, an Akai reel-to-reel, and a Sansui tuner. I generally don't play CD's except in the car sometimes.

Personally I would say you are done, invest in music. Nice gear as it stands.

If anything have Dean G. twist up some crossovers for ya:)

[3Fates]

Can't really invest much more in music .... already have over 5000 lps and I still enjoy listening to FM. I live just outside of New York City and rather spoiled with several excellent radio stations. I tend to spend my money on live performances as much as I can.

[seti]

Can't really invest much more in music .... already have over 5000 lps and I still enjoy listening to FM. I live just outside of New York City and rather spoiled with several excellent radio stations. I tend to spend my money on live performances as much as I can.

 

There is always new music to be had.... I am jealous of the live music and fm station selection you have. Enjoy.

[Audio Flynn]

[

Have you been a d**k your whole life? Or is this a trait you've just recently acquired?

Never really fancied ducks...

It seems to me that you are the only one initiating attacks on others here while I just made a harmless smart aleck response...Rather like answering the question, "what is the opposite of left?" with "taken". But I suspect you won't get that either.

But, just think, with you as a mentor I can aspire to the level of cretanism that you embody! Such lofty aspirations!

Mas,

That wasn't an attack, merely an observation. I'm sure a few other members are sick and tired or your constant BS.

Not me. And I think of the BS as being infrequent. Nothing better than good BS.

[Audio Flynn]

I am using a Supratek Chenin preamplifier with the McIntosh MC-240. In the past, I had used the McIntosh MX-110 preamplier/tuner but that is no where near the Supratek in performance. Sources are currently a Denon DP-62L turntable with a Denon DL-103R cartridge, an Akai reel-to-reel, and a Sansui tuner. I generally don't play CD's except in the car sometimes.

Who did the work on the MAC?

You have cool equipment. DO the networks ASAP!

[WMcD]

I can't quite agree with md's analysis that newer is better . . . but there is more to the issue.

I do generally believe that the machines which test for distortion do tell the story. There are a few ways of doing this of course. One without machines was suggested by Quad. If you can compare the input and the output, and there is no difference, that is an accurate amp. Futher, all accurate amps should sound the same.

The real issue, in my view, is how much distortion there is while the amplifier is operating in the conditions in which we listen. (Hard to argue that.) One important point is that the K-Horn puts out 104 dB at one watt. But 84 dB, or 20 dB down from that, is fairly loud. We can diddle about peaks, and the effect of listening distance, and two speakers. But, I believe the majority of what we're listening to can be measured at maybe 74 dB at one meter.

I invite anyone with an RS SPL meter and a CD with a constant tone test track to try this. In the mid frequencies, say 1000 to 4000 Hz, 75 dB is comfortable, and 85 dB is getting loud. Comments?

Therefore, it comes down to the fact that much of what we hear from K-Horns, LS, and Belles are with the amp putting out 1 milliwatt.

You can see where this is going. PWK's quip was: "What the world needs is a good five watt amplifier." Nelson Pass (an authority on amp design) talks about "The First Watt." Here I'm suggesting that the zone to be considered is at a much lower level.

It may be that various low power amps (generally older ones, if only in design) are better for the K-Horn because they are better at the 1 milliwatt level. Data on performance of amps at 1 milliwatt is hard to find. I have not found it. In some cases we see distortion dipping at 1 watt or 0.1 watt. Then increasing as power goes down.

WMcD

[DrWho]

However, these measures of steady state sine waves on a D.A. really tell next to nothing interesting about the sound of an amplifier when playing music.

That's why you gotta measure other things too... [^o)]

If you take an amplifier with 20dB of negative feedback and class B operation and a lot of cheap signal capacitors there is just about no chance whatsoever it is going to sound good (relative to better designs) regardless of what power it is designed for or what power it is being used at.

At least it's gonna measure like crap... []

[DrWho]

The Ultimate KHorn Amplifier .... Is there one?

Nope...the ultimate involves active crossovers and signal-alignment which requires three amplifiers [A] Gotta love having the amps directly coupled to the drivers.

[DrWho]

Therefore, it comes down to the

fact that much of what we hear from K-Horns, LS, and Belles are with

the amp putting out 1 milliwatt.

You can see where this is going. PWK's quip was: "What the world

needs is a good five watt amplifier." Nelson Pass (an authority on amp

design) talks about "The First Watt." Here I'm suggesting that the

zone to be considered is at a much lower level.

It may be that various low power amps (generally older ones, if only

in design) are better for the K-Horn because they are better at the 1

milliwatt level. Data on performance of amps at 1 milliwatt is hard to

find. I have not found it. In some cases we see distortion dipping at

1 watt or 0.1 watt. Then increasing as power goes down.

I think the notion of only listening to 1 mW is rather misleading -

or heck, even listening to 5 watts. I've had a scope on the output of

the various amps we've been building in lab and I must confess that I'm

dumbfounded by how much more power we're using that is often touted on

the forums. The Chorus II is rated to be 101dB with 2.83V at 1 meter.

When playing normal music, the scope is reading peaks of 2.83V, but the

SPL is reading around 74dB C-Weighted Fast sitting a meter from the

speakers. This would indicate that there is about 26dB worth of

transients in the song we were playing - and as you can imagine, 74dB

really doesn't seem that loud - especially when you're expecting 100dB. The reason

I mention this in voltage is because our speakers don't have perfectly

flat impedance responses. The Chorus II for example dips down to around

5 ohms at 40Hz (the tuning point), which means almost twice as much

power is being drawn at 40Hz versus say 800Hz where the impedance is

closer to 8 ohms. If you bump the listening level up to a fuller

sounding 80dB (as measured by the SPL meter), then you're looking at

over 8W from the amp and it's not even loud yet...

I don't mean to belabour the point, but I think the measurements are

rather interesting. Of course, if you put in a steady tone at 2.83V you

will measure 101dB, but the way most people interpret SPL is by

measuring music, not test tones...in which case, the huge transients become very misleading.

[DrWho]

I would like to know how others feel about amplifiers for the KHorns.

They generally make them play louder.

I recommend their use.

Kinda like wire, eh? lol [Y]

[DrWho]

How do I get rid of that dopey cowboy next to my posts?

Go to your control panel and change your avatar to whatever image you want (or just get rid of it and it'll go to the normal default). It seems the default avatar from the old forum software carried over.

To get to the control panel, click your username at the top left of the forum (way up in the corner in the black next to sign out, help, and inbox). There you'll see a tab that says avatar on it. For your convenience, you can also click this link:

http://forums.klipsch.com/user/EditProfile.aspx

[Deang]

"Most amplifiers that sound bad at 10W sounds just as bad at 100mW or 10mW."

I don't know about that one. You said "most", so I'll let you slide.

"I invite anyone with an RS SPL meter and a CD with a constant tone test track to try this. In the mid frequencies, say 1000 to 4000 Hz, 75 dB is comfortable, and 85 dB is getting loud. Comments?"

I agree with that. Two things here, 1) people who listen "loud" most of the time might consider 75dB down too far to bother with and 85dB "comfortable". People who listen at low levels most of time might consider 85dB fairly loud. 2) A person who has some loss in their hearing would certainly not qualify 85dB as "getting loud". I've seen posts where 100dB was described as "comfortably" loud.

If we contain the discussion to big Heritage, I agree with Gil.

"The Chorus II is rated to be 101dB with 2.83V at 1 meter."

No, it's rated 101dB @ 1 watt. The Chorus II impedance goes well over a hundred ohms, where you would need 10 volts to get a watt.

"Ultimate" Klipschorn amplifier? Though some around here think I've tried every amplifer ever built, there's plenty I haven't heard. All around best performer over here has been Craig's VRDs. If you don't need the power and don't have the wallet, Tripath gets scary close. The best amp I think I've ever heard was Rigma's Angela 91 monoblocks, but those were on Jubilees, so hardly an apples to apples comparison.

[stormin]

Tripath gets scary close.

As in the Carver Zr Tripath series amplifiers that Minn_Male42 use to go on about?

I believe those were powerful if I remember correctly. They were the talk of the town so to speak.

[pzannucci]

The two amps I have liked the most on my K-horns are the Bel Canto REF1000's (possibly too much money) and the Murano Audio P-200s monoblocks (fairly cheap). They may have more power than you think you need but once you hear the way those amps take control of the horns, especially in the bass, it will get you thinking about some of the new technologies. So far I've had a Rogue 88 tube amp, Monarchy SM-70 monos, Adcom GFA-555II, and the Panasonic XR-70 tripath hooked up. In my opinion the bang for the buck are the P-200s though you have to buy through E-bay.

[NOSValves]

I would like to know how others feel about amplifiers for the KHorns.

==================

Good modern amplifiers (both tubed and not) are marvels of clarity and musicality compared to their antique brethren.

I can agree on the clarity advantage to some degree but when it comes musicality I believe the vintage amps have down in spades. Tubes run the same today as they did in yester year no mysteries exist. Updating/upgrading vintage designs especially ones designed with a solid foundation can easily perform with the best available today including my own. The problem usually lies in cost of the best designs of yester year coupled with the rebuilding and upgrade cost end up often exceed the cost of brand new "if" you pick your brand new product carefully. Then you factor in that many of the best vintage amps have crazy collector value which modifications and upgrade will lower the collector value potential.

Craig