GOD HELP THIS COUNRTY!!

[Jeff Matthews]

I would suggest forgetting that class and instead reading Daniel Boorstin's The Image: A Guide to Pseudo-Events in America.

By far still the best book on the subject.

Oh, and I love how so many will decry gridlock and differences, instead eschewing 'getting along', which by definition says compromise your beliefs in the name of passing a bill that simply assuages the ego of many.

Unfortunately after seeing how the Republicans have wantonly abandoned their so-called principles of less government and fiscal responsibility (while fervently holding onto their right wing-liberal social engineering principles in the form of their anti-science religious pandering), and where the liberals mantra is simply to claim that they have not spent enough on unfunded mandates, that have (in only 4 years!) expanded the current obligation from $3T to $8T! ...and then to come out with the "we've got to save Social Security" song and dance... I suspect they would have suggested the Titanic band play "Row, Row, Row Your Boat" as it was going down!

And to think, we would have a balanced budget amendment except that the Nobel Prize winner Gore as V.P. voted against it on the sole stated basis that the proposed balanced budget amendment would not allow for deficit spending in time of war.... I will leave you to ponder the irony of that!

But the real irony is that Bush IS a moderate! Financially and regarding the role of government (just as when as Gubner of Texas he was suggesting a state income tax!) he is anything But conservative! And as as far as his religious beliefs, he has no problem using the government and the rule of law as a means to socially engineer and impose his beliefs. A conservative? Where????? He's just a right-wing liberal.

And as far as polarized...really? Let's see: Regarding spending and governmental scope? Nope, both parties actively increase government spending and government growth in absurd proportions, with the only differences being in the rate and to which special interest they pander! And as far as intrusion in personal lives and beliefs? Nope! Both parties give us plenty of social engineering, be it in social theory or religion! The only difference being that the Democrat 'liberals', or 'progressives' as they now prefer due to the pejorative meaning associated with the term "liberal", all claim to suddenly be 'libertarian' when their own indiscretions are uncovered, while the Republicans eat their own. The only polarization seems to be between just which 'agenda' the government should dictate and impose regarding our beliefs and how they spend 'their' money. But they are both actively engaged in increasing both the scope of government and its growth. Polarization??? Oh yeah, must we read the Bible or Marx...

To the degree that they both actively employ social engineering, they are simply two liberal camps who see the role of government as expansive and social engineering as legitimate. while those of us who do not want government interference and growth and who do not want nor need government lectures in social/religious belief are just ignored and abused. And the media is simply the propaganda arm of each. I'm not polarized. I'm alienated and sick of both groups.

I personally wouldn't mind a lot more gridlock, as intelligence and responsibility is a rather increasingly dwindling resource.

As far as the topic at hand, its the school's role to provide education in the form of information and explanation to facilitate understanding. It is not their job to provide material resources enabling behavior. And if only adults had sufficient understanding to teach what they themselves too often are clueless about.

{And I love the editorial "It's had a couple low points where people veer off topic and throw in their political beliefs at no one's request", as some evidently believe that "polarization" regarding socio-political issues occur amidst a vacuum without context! Pray tell, what would this entire topic amount to without the discussion of the 'optimal' nature and scope of government in society????)

Oh, and may I humbly suggest that we all worry about saving this "Country"! "Counrty" has been passe for some time...[][]

Looks like I missed some fun during my Sabbatical! [] Mas, I have to say, "I couldn't have said it better myself!"

It's good to see a little more political talk on here. A bunch of folks bonded by a common brand of speakers ALSO get to express their other views of interest with each other on this forum, rather than having to go mix with a bunch of Bose enthusiasts on some other forum to do the same thing. [Y]

[Jeff Matthews]

My take on the whole problem is it stems from the media. Look back in time, and what did we largely have? Programs with light humor, aspiring morals, etc. - like Abbot & Costello, The Brady Bunch, All in the Family. Sure, there was a twinge of political underpinnings involved in some of them, but the downright acceptance of moral decay was not prevalent like it is today.

Now what do we have? Programs that show adults engaging in affairs, where the focus is on the emotional aspects of the actors' mental deliberations about non-conformity, thus making them just "normal," struggling people. Nowadays, every loser has someone to identify with who is a celebrity protagonist going through a moral dilemma of sorts. It's okay to get divorced - half of America gets divorced. It's okay to be a pregnant teen because "so and so" are pregnant teens.

It's not so much that this stuff never occurred in history. Of course, it did. The modern era only glamorizes such conduct in the form of actor protagonists with whom we are made to identify, if not to at least accept them as decent people.

Look at the children in the "George Lopez Show." Essentially, they are compulsive losers trying to make a turn-around - basically good kids with some obstacles. And grandma is a selfish drunk, but you can't help but lover her.

Look at "Boston Legal." Pure filth by people who are professionals making all kinds of money in a great environment full of good-looking, articulate people.

Now that the world knows Clinton inhaled and Clinton, himself, will write a book telling us all about it, we can feel less concerned that our children get busted with a couple of joints. They might be a future president anyway!

And wasn't it Spock who told us not to spank our kids? I'm sorry, and I have a problem with that. The combination has lead to parents now feeling either compelled to accept their children's less-than-mediocre behavior or virtually powerless to deal with it. Moreoever, it has lead to the "wussification" of America.

We are supposed to "listen" and "understand" where our screwed up kids are "coming from"????? Give me a break!!!! The children need teaching and not a best friend to share doubts with them.

There is no family authority anymore. The media doesn't care. Parents care, but the manner in which they are encouraged to manifest it is largely prophylactic. Why should a parent ever think they need to see things through the children's eyes? It is okay to do that privately, but not openly with the children. Open "understanding" is a sign of weakness and doubt that the children are not too stupid to decipher.

How can the kids see all of this and not realize that the rest of society is doing what their parents tell them not to do? Are the parents unreasonable for expecting more than normal behavior?

When it goes further, and we have programs enabling immoral behavior by reducing the consequences of it, what have we done? Have we really reduced the consequences? It would seem the "immorality" is a function of the consequence, and if we can change the consequence, we can redefine morality.

[Jeff Matthews]

My take on the whole problem is it stems from the media.

============

And what are the characteristics of that media? Who are the owners? What is it they want? How do they get their power?

Those are all good questions. The media wants to make money above all other things. They must sell a product in demand in order to make money. Apparently, the ever-self-guilt-ridden Protestant-type classes have decided it is more cathartic to watch someone else morally screw up than it is to watch a good episode of National Geographic.

[Zen Traveler]

My take on the whole problem is it stems from the media.

============

And what are the characteristics of that media? Who are the owners? What is it they want? How do they get their power?

Freedom of the Press is here to stay, along with parents who have no control over their children and want to blame an external source. If you have a good relationship with your daughters they aren't going to the school nurse for the pill, regardless if it's available or not, imho.

[Jeff Matthews]

Explain 1, 2 and 4.

[oldbuckster]

I think Jeff Matthews is on to something ..................... just too much trash on TV ............ What happened to shows like Green Acres, Mayberry RFD, even Leave it to Beaver, NO swearing, NO sex, Ward and June weren't having affairs, swearing at the Beaver, snortin' Coke, and Wally wasn't gay ? Rent a movie, half of them every other word is the "F" word, and I don't mean Ford, even prime-time TV is full of unprofessional words ......... and all the ads to help old guys have sex, underwear ads skating the boundries of good taste ...................... It sure makes it hard for a parent to teach their children ............... Abstinence becomes a joke ........... and so goes the battle of teenagers having babies ............. Don't get me wrong, I'm no prude, I use foul language, I still like lookin' at women, but Network TV should not be full of this garbage, that's what Cable stations are for ............... Music is just as bad, some of that Rap Crap is insulting, don't tell me I'm old and this is today's way ...... I realize to each his own, but I don't have to like it ............... Thank God my children are grown and on their own, what they do now is their choice ......... I only hope I gave them a good start, taught the right things, and they will do the same when it's their turn at Parenting ...... the only thing I might add, is because they are gone, doesn't mean I've stopped parenting, because YOUR A PARENT FOR LIFE ..................

[Jeff Matthews]

mdeneen, what you say has some sense to it, but where do the program ratings come from? I don't mean PG, G, R, etc. I mean top-rated vs. low-rated in terms of (I guess) viewer feedback.

Somebody is polling someone, and the respondents are indicating what they like. And the fact is, a lot of the public likes crap. How popular was (is) "Desperate Housewives?" The show is a trashy joke. It took 2 seasons before they finally put a bra on what's-her-face (Terry?).

[Gilbert]

Gilbert---

I see by the second post you made a few minutes ago, that you are primarily simply against "government" and not very interested in the subject matter, or the people affected by addiction or teen pregnancy, other than the extent some government is involved. Your axe to grind is simply anti-government. That's fine, but it's a totally different argument. Maybe some other day.

You are right about the axe grinding, I'm not denying it, and I'm not too embarassed to say it. But it was not my intent redirect the focus of this thread. That is your method of thinking. It does appear obvious that you have an affection for and belief that, more government/taxpayer funded programs are a solution to the problems of society. My contention is that government only compounds the problem under the desguise of a bandaide, and creates a dependency.

You're belief (correct me if I'm wrong, please) seems to be that, even if the government hands out FREE condoms and FREE birth control pills, it doesn't mean a young child is going to have sex..... My belief is that it SUGGESTS to the children receiving the free tax payer gifts that it is OKAY to experiment with sex at their young age. Regardless of fact that they are not old enough to hold a job, let alone pocess the ability to make tough decisions. It is also my belief that these programs add another federally funded tax payer paid for brick paver in the road leading to government dependency and moral decay..... with that said, I can perfectly understand why a politician would promote idea of government dependency.

I re-itterate, is it feasible to believe that the goverment can step-in and solve the problems of teenage pregnancy and hard core drug addition by handing out birth control pills and building safe house shoot-up centers. I sternly say no, and that these types of programs breed stupidity and dependency.

Respectfully yours,

Cheif Whinner

PS: For what it's worth, I think Dean hit the nail on the head. Cheers for his obvious fatherly patience & ability to see the long road. I pray that my relationships with my girls are genuine, I believe they are, but only time will tell.

[Jeff Matthews]

I see your point. It is of some concern that censorship can be bad. But on the flip side, the effort to de-censor has had the results about which we complain. The viewers are much to blame, as well, because they should know better, but on the flip side how do you convince a 12 year-old boy that "Desparate Housewives" is not worth watching when he gets a woody watching bra-less Terry?

[Jeff Matthews]

Gilbert, I am for government staying the heck out of most things - including this business about helping kids practice safe sex. But as to television, like it or not, everyone has and watches television. Certain more or less radical parents try to ban television from kids, but it is no easy task. Therefore, I respectfully suggest that what is aired across television waves is an intrusion when it become so readily available to children, who by legal definition, are not capable of consenting. I think government should step in and regulate sexual and violent content in a much greater way.

[Jeff Matthews]

One other thought before I go play a set on the drums.....

None of this most recent discourse about trash in the media and censorship is likely to have any bearing on a more insidious issue. That is, the mediocrity show writers give to protagonist young actors. Like on the "George Lopez Show," for example. The boy is sort of a nice dolt as is the girl. And the grandma is a selfish drunk. Role models are mediocre and nothing to aspire to.

Cosby tries hard to point that out to blacks, but I think the problem is race-neutral.

[pauln]

Its just the logical result of the economic orientation of the entertainment media consumption advertising complex... operating without values.

0] The country depends on people spending money (consumption), for good or bad doesn't matter, just spend.

1] When people are nervous, anxious, and aggitated they releive tension by spending money, for good or bad, doesn't matter

2] The media is slanted to keep the public nervous, anxious, and aggitated (and hooked on needing a constant stream of "news & information"), good or bad

3] Entertainment is constantly adjusting it's content and themes in alignment and support of the media slant (training films)

4] The range of topics designed to upset the public is expanding (habituation, topics need to progressively be more alarming and offensive)

5] Adversing is riding the gravy train and enthusiastically contributing to it

6] All this is driven by economic rules, not moral ethical values

7] So what did you expect? It will only get worse...

The government can't stop this, only individuals can stop it for their own family by deciding to discard the TV, permanently. This is not radical, it only appears that way from the veiwpoint of the ones that produce the problem and those hooked on it. Lose your TV - You will live better, discover lots of free time, and both you and your children will clear up in about a month.

When you don't have TV, you may discover that "news" is local and personal, you can think for yourself, time moves slowly and there is plenty of it, you have talents and interests, and you may discover the real actual people around you.

[oldbuckster]

Sadly Guys when this thread runs it's course, there will still be Teenagers having babies, birth control, or no birth control, TV will still be sucky, and there will still be drug addicts spreading God knows what, and parents not being parents depending on everyone else to raise their children, too bad, but true !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Jeff Matthews]

"You're belief (correct me if I'm wrong, please) seems to be that, even if the government hands out FREE condoms and FREE birth control pills, it doesn't mean a young child is going to have sex..... My belief is that it SUGGESTS to the children receiving the free tax payer gifts that it is OKAY to experiment with sex at their young age."

-------

Hey Chief Whiner - -

Good to see you back! Ok, first of all, are we just demagoging here or having a serious discussion? "Sex Education" and family planning (making birth control available) have not been shown by any scientific studies to increase promiscuity, or decrease the age at which kids begin to have sex. I am, in all things, a believer in science. If the science showed otherwise, I'd have a different position. What studies DO show is those programs reduce disease and unwanted pregnancy and abortion. I am all for that. Just like having a "free tax payer gift" of a good fire department reduces the loss of life and property due to fire - I am all for that too. So, for me, the all inclusive anti-government demagogary only plays out so far.

So, even with these government backstops I am very much in favor of parental education about sex, and good home safety practices that reduce fire hazards. Use leverage to improve outcomes. Big deal.

Are there studies showing that these programs have NOT caused an increase in promiscuity?

[Jeff Matthews]

Sadly Guys when this thread runs it's course, there will still be Teenagers having babies, birth control, or no birth control, TV will still be sucky, and there will still be drug addicts spreading God knows what, and parents not being parents depending on everyone else to raise their children, too bad, but true !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The good side is that it takes knowing what it means to be a loser to feel like a winner.

[oldbuckster]

Sadly Guys when this thread runs it's course, there will still be Teenagers having babies, birth control, or no birth control, TV will still be sucky, and there will still be drug addicts spreading God knows what, and parents not being parents depending on everyone else to raise their children, too bad, but true !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The good side is that it takes knowing what it means to be a loser to feel like a winner.

Not quite sure what that means ................... You callin' me a loser? Your a winner everyday you wake up ................... []

[sivadselim]

http://www.yahoo.com/s/719409

[Jeff Matthews]

Sadly Guys when this thread runs it's course, there will still be Teenagers having babies, birth control, or no birth control, TV will still be sucky, and there will still be drug addicts spreading God knows what, and parents not being parents depending on everyone else to raise their children, too bad, but true !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The good side is that it takes knowing what it means to be a loser to feel like a winner.

Not quite sure what that means ................... You callin' me a loser? Your a winner everyday you wake up ................... []

Sorry for the delay if you were in doubt as to what I meant. No way am I calling you a loser. I am just saying that, with respect to your observation that despite our thread, people will still go on living with problems created by moral decay, that I guess at least we should be happy with ourselves to the extent we don't participate in it. You do your best to do the right thing and don't accept too much less than that. You should feel good about caring about how you raise your kids, especially when you see that there are alot of parents who don't care at all - or that do do enough to show they care, etc.

[Mr. RF62]

Problem I see also is everything has to be abosolutly rat crap and down to its lowest before we ever see a turn-around. Seems to be the way it goes. Gets as bad as it can get, then enough people say "oh" (open their eyes as a whole) then something is done about it, because there is enough people that want to do something about it.

[Zen Traveler]

Sadly Guys when this thread runs it's course, there will still be Teenagers having babies, birth control, or no birth control, TV will still be sucky, and there will still be drug addicts spreading God knows what, and parents not being parents depending on everyone else to raise their children, too bad, but true !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

On a more positive note...These exact same things were said 20 and 30 years ago and some of us still turned out OK.

Fwiw, I love living in the United States and am glad I can change the channel verses have the government dictate what I can or can't watch. [ip] Thank God, they didn't have that ol' V-chip thing when I was growing up. []