GOD HELP THIS COUNRTY!!

[SilverSport]

I think we should give money to those that wish to rob banks...if they're just going to do it anyway...we can avoid injuries during the hold up...[]

Bill

[garymd]

I think I'll just keep my mouth shut.

Thanks for sharing your point of view Jay.

Gary, I am sorry for expressing my opinion.

Jay,

You took my comment the wrong way. I do appreciate hearing your point of view. I just didn't have time right now to discuss. I was getting ready to head home (where I am now) and I have a lot to do before the weekend. I decided this was one discussion I would bail on for the time being.

No hard feelings I hope?

- Gary

[Daddy Dee]

I think I'll just keep my mouth shut.

Thanks for sharing your point of view Jay.

Gary, I am sorry for expressing my opinion.

Jay,

I'm butting in here, but just wanted to pass along an observation. I didn't pick up on Gary's comment as a put down on you.

Everybody has got a place at the table. Whatever is brought to the table, (assuming civility) is fine.

It's all part of the conversation.

This may be an excellent example, experientially speaking, of polarization.

Regarding the content of your posts, there is reason to wonder about the contribution of the media to polarization of our culture. There don't seem to be any agenda neutral sources of news. They all, in my observation, have an ax to grind.

edit: now I see that Gary was composing his post at the same time I was writing. right on the money.

[Daddy Dee]

I think we should give money to those that wish to rob banks...if they're just going to do it anyway...we can avoid injuries during the hold up...[]

Bill

Bill,

excellent idea with a hidden benefit. Handing out the bucks at the bank would then allow folks to buy their own drugs. This eliminates the need for the government to hand out drugs, too. []

[LarryC]

One cause of polarization? (by David Brooks, NYTimes): A Still, Small Voice

[oldbuckster]

Hey Jay, How old do you think a sixth grader is ? Being an older teen-ager is one thing, 6th and 7th graders are something else. Better yet, I hope you get married and have 2 or 3 daughters, then respond to this thread .................. ABSTINENCE ................ and that is taught at home !!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I do remember how it was being a teen-ager, but the fact remains, my first child was born when I was 30, and had been married for 5 years ................... not 12 or 13 years old !!!!!!!!!!!

[SilverSport]

I think we should give money to those that wish to rob banks...if they're just going to do it anyway...we can avoid injuries during the hold up...[]

Bill

Bill,

excellent idea with a hidden benefit. Handing out the bucks at the bank would then allow folks to buy their own drugs. This eliminates the need for the government to hand out drugs, too. []

Dee,

We are really on to something here...it can unfold like the petals of a flower...then we can...

Bill

[Gilbert]

Oh boy, this is just great... twice in one day; and another first for our nation. Just what this country needs, a drug injection center, provided to you by the tax payers of California. I'll die if this gets federal money, save the junkies.

Shooting Gallery

Danny,

I think I've got the all time record for both locked and deleted threads. Shot ole' Paul Parrot's record right off the books and in to never never land. [:S]

[dkp]

Oh boy, this is just great... twice in one day; and another first for our nation. Just what this country needs, a drug injection center, provided to you by the tax payers of California. I'll die if this gets federal money, save the junkies.

Shooting Gallery

Danny,

I think I've got the all time record for both locked and deleted threads. Shot ole' Paul Parrot's record right off the books and in to never never land. [:S]

Nice, a government sponsored place to break the laws of that same government under the watchful eyes of government paid (I assume) nurses. If that doesn't top the cake, I don't know what does. What could possibly be next? An escort to take with you when you rob banks (mentioned above) to ensure that you don't shoot yourself or do something stupid during the robbery?

-David

[Jay481985]

I think I'll just keep my mouth shut.

Thanks for sharing your point of view Jay.

Gary, I am sorry for expressing my opinion.

Jay,

I'm butting in here, but just wanted to pass along an observation. I didn't pick up on Gary's comment as a put down on you.

Everybody has got a place at the table. Whatever is brought to the table, (assuming civility) is fine.

It's all part of the conversation.

This may be an excellent example, experientially speaking, of polarization.

Regarding the content of your posts, there is reason to wonder about the contribution of the media to polarization of our culture. There don't seem to be any agenda neutral sources of news. They all, in my observation, have an ax to grind.

edit: now I see that Gary was composing his post at the same time I was writing. right on the money.

I think I did take it the wrong way, but now I don't.... I guess its due to some of my beliefs that get me the third wheel in this forum some times.

[mas]

I rather get a kick out of the concept of a neutral press, as If they have no opinions or are not also entitled to them.

What does bother me more are those who most definitely do have opinions and yet claim to be neutral!

Witness .Bias by Bernard Goldberg.

What is commonplace in Europe is for each publication to have an editorial bias. And they say so up front. That doesn't mean that they are inaccurate! Instead, it just tells you their presuppositions and from where they are coming! I have no problem interpreting a story where you understand their bent.

But the falsity of claiming to have no opinion is utterly absurd. To me, if they have no opinion, they are neither informed nor intelligent enough to write anything offering insight!

Now what would be refreshing, in a land where all claim falsely to have no presupposed bias, would be for those offering their take on a subject to simply be up front with their real opinions and to sate them as such!

[Audio Flynn]

Here in Motown maybe this is a good idea. Free BC may encourage kids to stay in school and improve the abysmal 23% graduation rate (no not drop out rate).

In suburbia near here a couple of years back a group of unsupervised 7th graders had a little 8 person naked group thing that parents eventually found out about. Pretty scary morality.

[oldbuckster]

I think a clean needle exchange is a good idea ..................... before we dump on people about an addiction, take a look at the music you listen to, Rock and Jazz are full of artist's, past and present, who have had an addiction, even country stars ..................... and while we're on the subject, Alcohol is a drug too, just because it's legal, doesn't make it less addictive ..................... Drug addiction, and Teenage birth control are two different subjects .................

[dkp]

With all this intense criticizing here there must be a lot of people here with direct hands-on involvement in these two difficult problems! I'd be interested to hear how you are all involved in solving the teen pregnancy problem, or the drug addiction problem. And, how do your results compare to the work being done by other people in these two news items? I only ask because after 3 pages of whining about it, I haven't seen anyone take the time yet to actually lay out their work on the issues.

Are you volunteer drug counselors? Big Brothers, Big Sisters? Are you serving on your school boards? Do you work in the public health sector? Are you involved in volunteer programs that teach parenting skills? Are you working in the homeless shelters with addicts? Are you working the crisis intervention phone banks in the evenings? Are you volunteering as teaching assistants for after school programs? How did you reduce drug addiction in your area? How are you working to reduce teen pregnancy?

With such intense and strong feelings about the "problems" you must be taking some pretty strong actions yourself, right? Surely you wouldn't be just sitting back and taking pot shots at all the others who actually DO the work, would you? So, go ahead, don't be shy, tell us what you have been doing that works better than what these people are doing! I'm sure no one wants to discover that they are simply standing around holding up a shovel while others do the work. That just wouldn't be "right," would it?

Before your question is answered, perhaps you could explain how it is the role of the school to dispense medication without parental approval and knowledge. I would also like to hear your explanation of how a government can at the same time rule something illegal and also provide a location to break the law in a safe manner.

-David

[Amy]

Danny,

I think I've got the all time record for both locked and deleted threads. Shot ole' Paul Parrot's record right off the books and in to never never land. [:S]

Let's not exaggerate, Gilbert. I had to get rid of the raffle threads for obvious reasons, and I was quick on the trigger, so to speak, about Ted and the 2nd Amendment. You're really not as trod upon as you think!

I'm letting this thread continue as an experiment. It's had a couple low points where people veer off topic and throw in their political beliefs at no one's request, but it's still on track for the most part.

I still prefer not to have political discussions on this forum--ie, "my party is better than your party" BS. But if you feel compelled to discuss morality and teenage promiscuity, which is most certainly a problem (and not 100% the fault of parents), then have at it.

[dkp]

You are half right. The students do need to have permission to use the health center but parents are not made aware of what services are provided.

There is a fundamental difference between a center (government funded) where you may go to receive help beating your addiction and a center that allows you to receive help in feeding your addiction, agreed?

[dkp]

"You are half right. The students do need to have permission to use the health center but parents are not made aware of what services are provided."

So, you are imagining that YOU know they are offering birth control, but the parents in that district don't know? Actually, the school or the board will inform parents of exactly what the health center offers and is about - that's the standard modus operandi of these situations. Don't let your imagination run away with you, because that's the reaction the media wanted you to have.

I'm quite sure that all of the parents in that district, and now most others across the nation, will know that they are offering birth control. Sure, parents need to authorize their child to utilize the services of that department. None of that negates the fact that the school may prescribe birth control to their child without their specific permission and specific knowledge. I hope that clarifies my position. I await your answer to my question.

"There is a fundamental difference between a center (government funded) where you may go to receive help beating your addiction and a center that allows you to receive help in feeding your addiction, agreed?"

I don't see any way in which that comment is relative to my explanation about local constituencies wanting to control their own issues as they see fit, sometimes in spite of a grander federal scheme. I mean, even private businesses are allowed to "feed your addiction" for nicotine and alcohol. So, you are pretty much launching into some other argument.

What are the issues here? They are: addiction is real, and people who are addicted create problems for themselves and society at large. These problems suck up public resources. So, people who are intelligent want to prudently manage those resources to have the most favorable outcomes. Some people in SF obviously believe they will have a more favorable outcome vis a vis public resources, and public health, if they provide this health program. My guess would be they will try it, measure the results over time and see if it works. What precisely is your argument against them doing this? If your argument is simply "the law" as it exists, I suggest you consider the history of slavery, civil rights, suffrage and so on. And, don't forget that cocaine was legal long before it became illegal, for example.

So, I have answered many of your questions, and yet you haven't yet answered mine.

I'm not sure how to make my position more clear for you. One center helps an addict in their attempt to stop breaking the law, the other assists him in breaking the law. I'm not sure what I could read that would help me understand that better.

[dkp]

You mentioned my imagination in your initial reply. Perhaps you should expand yours a bit as where there is a will, there is often a way, especially when young hormones are at play. Example: School sends home permission slip w/all children in the district for parents to authorize the school to treat their child. List of services is mentioned. Parent figures, "well, if Suzie falls down on the playground, I would like for the school to treat her scraped up knees." Parent signs form with the intent of utilizing a PORTION of the services listed. Suzie seeks birth control from the school and can receive it without the specific consent and knowledge of her parent(s). Back to my original question: How does this fall under the scope of responsibility for the school? I do not believe that you have answered this.

I may be a bit off in my history, but I believe that most of the examples you cited were either legal or illegal but not both legal and illegal at the same time. I'm not sure how you glean the notion that I may be simply against all reform by my statements thus far. I have stated my position as being against this particular reform, which is a far cry from all reform. I take issue with the government telling its citizenry that drugs are bad, not good for you, etc etc etc and then providing a place to shoot up. Seems to be a contradiction, don't you think?

-David

[BigStewMan]

With all this intense criticizing here there must be a lot of people here with direct hands-on involvement in these two difficult problems! I'd be interested to hear how you are all involved in solving the teen pregnancy problem, or the drug addiction problem. And, how do your results compare to the work being done by other people in these two news items? I only ask because after 3 pages of whining about it, I haven't seen anyone take the time yet to actually lay out their work on the issues.

Are you volunteer drug counselors? Big Brothers, Big Sisters? Are you serving on your school boards? Do you work in the public health sector? Are you involved in volunteer programs that teach parenting skills? Are you working in the homeless shelters with addicts? Are you working the crisis intervention phone banks in the evenings? Are you volunteering as teaching assistants for after school programs? How did you reduce drug addiction in your area? How are you working to reduce teen pregnancy?

With such intense and strong feelings about the "problems" you must be taking some pretty strong actions yourself, right? Surely you wouldn't be just sitting back and taking pot shots at all the others who actually DO the work, would you? So, go ahead, don't be shy, tell us what you have been doing that works better than what these people are doing! I'm sure no one wants to discover that they are simply standing around holding up a shovel while others do the work. That just wouldn't be "right," would it?

My first post on this topic...mdeneen, if you are merely curious as to whether or not your fellow forum members are either employed or volunteer in the areas that you mention in your questions that is one thing. Are you suggesting that if they are not personally involved they are not entitled to an opinion or that their opinion is somehow invalidated? I happen to work for an organization that deals with many of these issues you spoke of; however, that does not automatically make my opinion right, nor those of the people that i work with. Facts, logic, and common sense are not exclusive to those that work with those issues--they are available to everyone. history is filled with examples of failures of people "directly" involved. i've personally seen a brand new person to an organization, with no prior experience, identify and offer a solution (that worked) when others that had been neck-deep dealing with the issue for years had failed to recognize it. i hope that i have misinterpreted your post and if i have, i offer my apology. Now, my personal opinion--we're living in a society that has a victim-based mindset. personal responsibilty and accountability are no longer the norm. i also think as mentioned in someone's earlier post, that it is foolish to surrender because "people are going to [insert irresponsible behavior] do it anyway." we can accept that as a reality; however, we must do what is right anyway--to do otherwise is irresponsible (and not actually helpful). Regards.

[Jay481985]

I like the fact that states get to be "laboratories of democracy" versus the federal government which status quo is the overwhelming situation