Best Khorn Tweeter Upgrade

[seti]

SETI: A two-way cabinet would be an interesting idea. One possibility (other than the K402) would be a K510 since it is less expensive. Alternatively, there have been others who have used an Altec 511 with a 902 driver. I believe the trick is to then use steepish crossovers (mostly so the 902 is not going too low) and some EQ at the high end may be required (an electronic crossover could do both). If you go this way you'll need to make sure the diaphragm can reach the highs (I think the Aluminum is the best, check the previous threads on that issue).

I would like to Keep it Klipsch and the 510 is the main candidate. Have heard both 402 and 510 and like both. The performance of the 402 is killer but it looks silly on a khorn bass bin. Can the Khorn lf and 510 meet up and crossover together without any discontinuity? Can the Khorn LF hit 500hz or can the 510 hit 400hz? Cleanly?

[mike stehr]

I would like to Keep it Klipsch and the 510 is the main candidate. Have heard both 402 and 510 and like both. The performance of the 402 is killer but it looks silly on a khorn bass bin. Can the Khorn lf and 510 meet up and crossover together without any discontinuity? Can the Khorn LF hit 500hz or can the 510 hit 400hz? Cleanly?

Good question.

[cjgeraci]

I would like to Keep it Klipsch and the 510 is the main candidate. Have heard both 402 and 510 and like both. The performance of the 402 is killer but it looks silly on a khorn bass bin. Can the Khorn lf and 510 meet up and crossover together without any discontinuity? Can the Khorn LF hit 500hz or can the 510 hit 400hz? Cleanly?

Good question.

Seti:

I've been playing around again in a similar vein. Last month, I went down the upgraded mid drivers route and purchased a pair of 2470s with original phenolic dias that turned out to be shot.

So......now, I'm playing around in a different direction. I borrowed a nice active crossover and have been experimenting for the past week (thanks, Uncle Maron). Been listening to my Khorns as two-ways. First, just for giggles, I hooked up Al's Trachorns with K55Vs, and just let them roll..........Not bad, but I could hear some raggedness, and the upper end roll off was not that smooth. Now, I swapped some parts with my rear Belles, and 511s with Altec 802s are sitting on top of my Khorns. I've been playing with the crossover at 400 and 500 hz settings (18 db slope). To my EARS, I think that the Khorn bass bin can hit 500 just enough that crossing over at 500 hz will work. Of course, I probably need to dig out my Behringer out of the closet and run some RTAs at some point to be sure (if I can find the time to do it), but at least to me ears, I am liking the 500 point as well as the 400 (no audible difference to my ears).

I have also been considering the 510/K69 top end for my Klipschorns or the 511/902 (or Trachorn/902) top end. While I admire your desire to keep the upper horns of your Klipschorns - at least "stock" Klipsch, my motivation is to go the best route up top, regardless of manufacture - and within reason. (Besides, my center Belle and my side surrounds still have stock mid-horns so some of my system has stayed intact). The question that I have for you is - how would you describe the differences in sound between the Jubs top end and the Klipschorns at lower and middle volumes? And aside and apart from the the obvious differences in that the 402 or 510 horns sound more open and effortless as opposed to the K400? The reason that I'm asking is that the K55 uses a phenolic dia as opposed to the K510 drivers, which are titanium. Some titanium drivers have sounded more forward (or at least more metallic) to me than phenolic ones, and I was just curious to hear your take because I think that drivers made with different materials sound pretty different. That is one consideration why I might stay in the Altec driver line (and still with a 1 inch 902) because of the sound of the alumimum drivers.

Carl.

P.S. I apologize for assisting in the hijack of the thread into two-way land. For the record, I have owned and prefer the Beyma CP25 and the Eminence tweeters (Crites and APT 200) over the stock K77 and consider both substantial upgrades. At this point, I actually prefer the Crites tweeter by a little bit over the Beyma, but I could live with either (my front five have Eminence tweeters with two Beymas in the back). I have also heard, loved and appreciated the JBL 2404s, but just have not yet heard them in my system (and room)......but soon.

[boom3]

There's another possible tweeter choice. I'm using late (86) CW IIs that have the K-79s, and also a Crites CT125 in my center. Both are fine tweeters. Why not try the K-79? At one time Bob had replacement diaphragms for them, and they come up on the used market from time to time. I don't have any sensitivity figures for them, but I think they are well within range of being able to be adjusted by moving taps on the autoformer. The K-79 is not the same size as the K-77 and so is not physically a drop-in replacement.

[seti]

I would like to Keep it Klipsch and the 510 is the main candidate. Have heard both 402 and 510 and like both. The performance of the 402 is killer but it looks silly on a khorn bass bin. Can the Khorn lf and 510 meet up and crossover together without any discontinuity? Can the Khorn LF hit 500hz or can the 510 hit 400hz? Cleanly?

Good question.

Seti:

I've been playing around again in a similar vein. Last month, I went down the upgraded mid drivers route and purchased a pair of 2470s with original phenolic dias that turned out to be shot.

So......now, I'm playing around in a different direction. I borrowed a nice active crossover and have been experimenting for the past week (thanks, Uncle Maron). Been listening to my Khorns as two-ways. First, just for giggles, I hooked up Al's Trachorns with K55Vs, and just let them roll..........Not bad, but I could hear some raggedness, and the upper end roll off was not that smooth. Now, I swapped some parts with my rear Belles, and 511s with Altec 802s are sitting on top of my Khorns. I've been playing with the crossover at 400 and 500 hz settings (18 db slope). To my EARS, I think that the Khorn bass bin can hit 500 just enough that crossing over at 500 hz will work. Of course, I probably need to dig out my Behringer out of the closet and run some RTAs at some point to be sure (if I can find the time to do it), but at least to me ears, I am liking the 500 point as well as the 400 (no audible difference to my ears).

I have also been considering the 510/K69 top end for my Klipschorns or the 511/902 (or Trachorn/902) top end. While I admire your desire to keep the upper horns of your Klipschorns - at least "stock" Klipsch, my motivation is to go the best route up top, regardless of manufacture - and within reason. (Besides, my center Belle and my side surrounds still have stock mid-horns so some of my system has stayed intact). The question that I have for you is - how would you describe the differences in sound between the Jubs top end and the Klipschorns at lower and middle volumes? And aside and apart from the the obvious differences in that the 402 or 510 horns sound more open and effortless as opposed to the K400? The reason that I'm asking is that the K55 uses a phenolic dia as opposed to the K510 drivers, which are titanium. Some titanium drivers have sounded more forward (or at least more metallic) to me than phenolic ones, and I was just curious to hear your take because I think that drivers made with different materials sound pretty different. That is one consideration why I might stay in the Altec driver line (and still with a 1 inch 902) because of the sound of the alumimum drivers.

Carl.

P.S. I apologize for assisting in the hijack of the thread into two-way land. For the record, I have owned and prefer the Beyma CP25 and the Eminence tweeters (Crites and APT 200) over the stock K77 and consider both substantial upgrades. At this point, I actually prefer the Crites tweeter by a little bit over the Beyma, but I could live with either (my front five have Eminence tweeters with two Beymas in the back). I have also heard, loved and appreciated the JBL 2404s, but just have not yet heard them in my system (and room)......but soon.

Yeah sorry to hijack the thread. When I thought about getting my tweeters and mids checked out it seemed logical to entertain khorn as a two way. I do plan to keep my Khorns stock but updated. The crossovers are Crites rebuilt A's. I'll rewire the cabinets and have the mh hf drivers checked out by a pro. If the 510 works as a two way on top that would be cool but it would likely stay on top.

Sfogg is running La Scalas as two ways with the K510 so he would be the one two comment on how Heritage merges with the 510 sound. I have an email from him which I'll try to find that might address this question. I have heard the 510 and 402 many times and feel it would be a good match for the khorn although the proof is in hearing them together. That is why it is a mod because you don't know if it will work until you try it out. The jubilee is very different than the khorn and I love both. Folded bass horns are my favorite and fortunately klipsch has several of them to listen to. Have you noticed that the new Cornwall and Heresy use titanium diaphram mid horn and tweeters? If klipsch feels comfortable making this change then mixing conerns me a little less than it normally would. I haven't heard any of the altec mods but would like to some day.

[ZAKO]

At the moment i am playing with the Emenence APT-50 super tweeter strapped to a baby SMITH horn that I borrowed from Link Alley....I must state that combination is very close to the JBL2404 for clarity.. That phenaulic diaphram has just enough damping to make it sound more natural. The small Smith horn is only about 8" wide by 1 1/4" tall.... Amazing !!!!!

[pesitalia]

I would like to post my experience with Klipschorn's tweeters.

I own a pair of new klipschorn loudspeakers built in 2000 and equipped with AK-3 crossover. These speakers have some unique features but when I bought them, I noticed two areas of weakness:

1) some redundancy and coloration in the 300-600Hz area affecting mostly male & female voice and

2) some resonance and harshness in the +- 5000Hz area (affecting harmonic accuracy of most instruments), this one being the most evident weakness to my opinion.

Well, I thought that this was a penalty to pay if you wanted a horn system. One day I came across this forum and learned about ALK Engineering. After several contacts with Al Klappenberger and an unsuccessful trial of his 'Universal Upgrade' crossover, I got a set of AP12-AK3 & ES5800 crossover and a trackhorn-400 for the squawker. I installed them with a bit of pessimism, thinking to the disappointment I got with the universal kit. I really got surprised when I started to hear this new setup. It resolved most of the weaknesses addressed above without jeopardizing the efficiency or the dynamics.

Concerning the tweeters, I got some improvements: in fact the K-77 had a smoother response maybe due to a better crossover frequency/pitch, thanks to the ES5800. However the sound was still missing that sort of thiny and crystal clear response I was looking for, especially when playing difficult instruments like vibes.

I then decided to switch to the Beyma CP-25 as I could not find used JBL 2404. Initially I was quite happy with this change as I got more energy and a better dispersion. However I soon realized that the sound of the Beyma's was too aggressive and missing some sweetness (I could not fix the problem by reducing the output level as this was clearly a characteristic of this tweeter). Just to confirm it, I tested my hi-fi system with different top quality loudspeakers and the harsh tweeter sound was not there anymore. I also disconnected the tweeters and again, the problem disappeared. I was told by several friends that the JBL 2404 would have quite a similar response as it was designed thinking to outdoor applications, not certainly to in house hi-end.

So, I guess that the Beyma CP-25 (and maybe the JBL2404) would be good if you listen to rock/pop music or so, but if you are an aficionado of acoustic jazz and classical music, I would not recommend them. I am currently in search of good alternatives compatible with the rest of the speaker.

Carlo, Italy

MY HIFI RIG

I have a system built around an 8+8W Audio Tekne integrated amplifier manufactured in Japan. The other components are:

Teac P-30 CD Drive Unit
Audio Research DAC-3 Converter, fine tuned with Philips ECC88 Miniwatt vacuum tubes
Revox-Studer PR99 MKIII 2-tracks Tape Recorder
Acoustic Signature Analog One MKII Turntable with SME V Tonearm
Van Den Hul Grasshopper III GLA MC Type Pickup
Audio Research PH-7 Pre-phono fine tuned with Philips ECC88 Miniwatt vacuum tubes
All cables from Audio Tekne

[jm5546]

I very much appreciate all of your experiences and input. I went on a shopping spree and bought several 2404H's (couldn't pass them up), and will soon be buying a couple of CW-125's. Once I get all of them (and can find some free time), I will do some near-field SPL/Feq. testing with TrueRTA (just to see how they compare analytically). After that, the most important testing....some good old fashioned listening. If I ever get done, I will let you know what my findings were. In the mean time, please continue to add your opinions and/or experiences to this thread.

Frank

p.s. I am a bit lost on the "Jubilee" reference. I see that it is a speaker intended for theater use, but am not very familiar with it. The only thing that "sticks-out" in it's specifications is it's relatively limited bass capability (45Hz). What makes it better than the Khorn? Are there consumer (veneered enclosure) versions available? Still in production? Cost?

[IB Slammin]

I very much appreciate all of your experiences and input. I went on a shopping spree and bought several 2404H's (couldn't pass them up), and will soon be buying a couple of CW-125's. Once I get all of them (and can find some free time), I will do some near-field SPL/Feq. testing with TrueRTA (just to see how they compare analytically). After that, the most important testing....some good old fashioned listening. If I ever get done, I will let you know what my findings were. In the mean time, please continue to add your opinions and/or experiences to this thread.

Frank

p.s. I am a bit lost on the "Jubilee" reference. I see that it is a speaker intended for theater use, but am not very familiar with it. The only thing that "sticks-out" in it's specifications is it's relatively limited bass capability (45Hz). What makes it better than the Khorn? Are there consumer (veneered enclosure) versions available? Still in production? Cost?

...........What makes it better than the Khorn?...............

To the ear of a reflex lover,.............The difference is the "slam factor". Granted, I have not heard all horn loaded bass bins, and my listening experience with the Jub bin is limited. BUT, the Jubilee is the only horn loaded bass bin (that I have listened to) that delivered the impact that I require. 45hz be hanged, it was a boot in the chest. I need that. Quick subs needed perhaps? I know nothing about subs, but the Jub bin blew my skirt up. Quick, accurate, and with authority.

tc

[gaspr]

Just speculation on my part but I would bet that the 45Hz spec from the

cinema jubilee was measured in a 1/4 space loading. Stick it in a

corner (1/8 space) and it gets much better (goes lower)...stick it in a

corner inside of a room and it gets better yet.

[George Roland]

I never have heard the Beyma, but I heard the K-77, the JBL 2404s and Crites CT-125 with BC's crossovers on my K-horns, and I much preferred Bob's tweeter. To me it was the smoothest and best sounding of the three. Of course, the crossovers were done by Bob and matched to his tweeter. Maybe with custom crossovers, made for them, the JBLs would have faired better. Cheers,

George

[djk]

"Why not try the K-79?"

It's only 101dB, and it doesn't fit either.

[boom3]

"Why not try the K-79?"

It's only 101dB, and it doesn't fit either.

Only 101 dB?[]

I assume you mean sensitivity...not ultimate output...cuz I've had mine rather higher than that[] there's always the autoformer if required.

doesn't fit...true...but the other tweeters (aside from Bob's, of course) require some woodworking as well...I think the main problem with the K-79 is going to be its scarcity...rarely seen by itself on the secondary market...

Looks like replacing the tweeter just leads to replacing the mid also...maybe it's inevitable

[cjgeraci]

"Why not try the K-79?"

It's only 101dB, and it doesn't fit either.

Looks like replacing the tweeter just leads to replacing the mid also...maybe it's inevitable

Some have replaced the mid horn, driver or both. [*-)]

Carl.

[ZAKO]

I,m doing a complete mid and tweet update this week...Due to CJGeraci,s gentil nudging of high power but clean drivers...I,m going to make his ears bleed. I,m going 4 way electronic xover, eight amp,,,, Just wait Carl I,m gonna peel the green off your teeth...You made me into the monster of high power horns,,, Debbie get that straight jacket off me....BBBuuuuuuwwwwaaaaaaaaahhhh !!!!!!!!

[PrestonTom]

...............

Looks like replacing the tweeter just leads to replacing the mid also...maybe it's inevitable

It really is inevitable.

Personally, I think concentrating on the mid will have a bigger impact than foolin' around with the tweeter.

However be warned:

This could lead to using a Tractrix horn....

This could lead to going to a 2-way system...

This could then lead to using an electronic crossover....

This could lead to bi-amping....

This could lead to using steep crossover slopes....

This could lead to correcting the time alignment.....

Good Luck,

-Tom

[sfogg]

"However be warned:

This could lead to using a Tractrix horn....

This could lead to going to a 2-way system...

This could then lead to using an electronic crossover....

This could lead to bi-amping....

This could lead to using steep crossover slopes....

This could lead to correcting the time alignment....."

Lasciate ogne speranza, voi chentrate....

Shawn

[ZAKO]

Debbie says I have to get my rest now....wheres my binky.

[linkalley]

shut eye is always nice!!! MARON, YOU BETTER NOT PUT MY TWEETERS IN THE BATTLE OF SOUND!!! YOUR river buddy will try to con you out of them[] besides, i already put them thru the gammit!!! BAD BOY CRITES GOT THIS ONE DEAD ON!!! maron, [8-)]AS WE AGREE ON SO MANY ISSUES, them ther tweets are mighty sounding tweets []

[ZAKO]

LInk ....Those river rats are pretty shifty....Small beady eyes...picking there teeth with sly grins... No i have to lock them super tweets in my vault... Boy are they beautiful, some workmanship. I sent for some of those tweets from parts express.... Will now try to clone them... or get a weel barrol full of cash to send down to you... But you dont need the money... You need some extra M200 s. BBBuuuuuaaaaahhhhhh !!!! No No debbie not the straight jacket again !!!!!