JubScala?

[Islander]

It's been mentioned that a JubScala might be a stepping-stone to a Jubilee. From my point of view, the Jubilees are a bit costly, even if they are a great value. As well, they're just plain BIG! It's wouldn't be so bad if they're in the end of a room, but in my place you have to walk past the right speaker to get into the room, so the size (particularly width) would be undeniable.

However, the JubScala could be a way to go. Here's my question: does the 402 horn/K69 combo work equally well in a vertical orientation?

Turned on its side, a 402 would be roughly the width of a La Scala, so it would look more attractive than having it set up horizontally. If it did sound just as good, I could look into getting a set of La Scala bass bins, or just use my present Scalas and disconnect the HF section.

The horn could be tilted down a little to compensate for the extra height.

Any ideas or opinions?

[Coytee]

I don' t know the pros/cons of turning a 402 ninety degrees. I DO think though that it is in fact larger (in raw dimensions) than a LaScala.

Having heard it though.... I can just about guarantee that you WILL LOVE the sound.

Let's make no bones about it though....

Walking past Jubilees in the room or walking past JubeScalas in same room... either way it's certainly going to be an eye attraction!! (or distraction?)

Personally, (and I realize different strokes for different folks) I like the raw all business look of the speakers in the room and yes, that not only includes the 402 but to me...the 402 is actually the actualy eye magnet in the room, not the bass bins.

Tilting the horn (when used in its "left/right" configuation) would probably not be an issue. I don't know how that might change if you changed the orientation of the horn. Truth be told... I'd suggest to you (or anyone that tried it) to simply set them up 'as is' and see what happens.

Good luck if you pursue this!

[Edgar]

Here's my question:  does the 402 horn/K69 combo work equally well in a vertical orientation?

It's counterintuitive, but at any given frequency many horns have a narrower radiation pattern in the long dimension than in the short dimension. Using the 402 in traditional "landscape" orientation as an example, this means that the pattern might be only 40° in the horizontal direction (the larger horn dimension) but 90° in the vertical direction (the smaller horn dimension).

For sound reinforcement this can be a good thing; it means that the entire audience from the front row all the way to the back row is covered, but the side-to-side radiation is controlled and kept from being bounced off the side walls of the auditorium. In the home, however, it might actually be better to use such a horn in "portrait" orientation. This way the sound is kept from being bounced off the floor and ceiling, but it still fills the entire room side-to-side.

Certainly worth trying.

Greg

[Chris A]

Not trying to rain on your parade, but my two cents:

The 402 is really designed to have higher control of its vertical dispersion to control ceiling and floor bounce. Turning the horn on end would create more near-field reflections from these two sources (and few people apply ceiling treatments). Since the ear isn't linear with respect to near field bounce (Haas effect), this will result in the perception that the 402 is producing too much midrange and will sound more "smeared" in the sound stage.

I believe the 402 controlled vertical dispersion is a big part of why it sounds so much better than the speaker is was supposed to replace.

(Yes, I'm saying just the opposite of Edgar.)

Chris

[mikebse2a3]

The cinema brochure spec for the K402 list:

Horizontal: 90 degree (+/- 20 degree) 220Hz to 14kHz

Vertical: 60 degree (+/- 15 degree) 600Hz to 18kHz

mike tn

[Edgar]

Not trying to rain on you parade, but my two cents:

The 402 is really designed to have higher control of its vertical dispersion to control ceiling and floor bounce. Turning the horn on end would create more near-field reflections from these two sources (and few people apply ceiling treatments). 

Not raining on my parade, you're saying the same thing that I did. My mistake was apparently in choosing the 402 as an example -- I am not familiar with its radiation pattern, so I assumed that it was narrow horizontal and wide vertical. If the 402 does, in fact, have tighter vertical control than horizontal control, then in "landscape" orientation it's already in the best configuration to minimize floor and ceiling bounce.

Each horn is unique in how it controls dispersion. Most of the non-multicell pro-audio horns that I have encountered have the narrower beamwidth associated with the longer dimension. But there are always exceptions.

(On edit: Looking at the current EV catalog, I see that it's pretty common for short, wide "landscape" horns to show larger horizontal dispersion than vertical. However, they cannot maintain their vertical dispersion to nearly as low a frequency as their horizontal dispersion, presumably because of the smaller physical dimension.)

It still might be worth experimenting with "portrait" orientation, because in the near field the pattern can be significantly different than in the far field.

Greg

[Chris A]

The cinema brochure spec for the K402 list:

Horizontal: 90 degree (+/- 20 degree) 220Hz to 14kHz

Vertical: 60 degree (+/- 15 degree) 600Hz to 18kHz

mike tn

Thanks Mike - I was looking for that.

Chris

[Edgar]

The cinema brochure spec for the K402 list:

Horizontal:  90 degree (+/- 20 degree)  220Hz to 14kHz

Vertical:      60 degree (+/- 15 degree)  600Hz to 18kHz

mike tn

I stand corrected on the K-402.

Greg

[Guest " "]

Double stacked LaScala bass bins with a k510/k69 along with a sub woofer would be the way to go.

[WMcD]

The spec show what Don Keele says. Also what antenna designers say. I always point this out. So excuse me.

Per Don, you can set a narrow pattern with the angle of the cone or wedge shaped horn. But the more narrow the pattern you need (even with that wedge angle) the larger the mouth in that orientation.

This is also like antenna design. If you want a narrow pattern, you need a bigger antenna. The lower the frequency, the bigger the antenna on top of that.

You see this in the K-402 spec. It can hold a narrow pattern in the verticle, but not down to low freqs. At low freqs, it is broad. This because of the lack of height.

Gil

[Islander]

So the frequency response would be out of whack with a vertical orientation?

[ben.]

No. Not necessarily. Those specs just show that directivity is not as good in the vertical plane at certain frequencies (below 600Hz) as it is in the horizontal.

[DrWho]

So the frequency response would be out of whack with a vertical orientation?

Think
of it as a spotlight...the color of the light doesn't change (frequency
response), but the different parts of the room will get lit up
differently because of how it's focused (directivity).

If you
were shining a light on a picture (like in a museum), would you want
the light to be hitting the wall around the picture? It kinda works the
same way with sound...hitting the walls around the listening position
distracts from the art. You'll still be able to make out and enjoy the
photo, but it'll be more vibrant with just the picture lit up.

[Chris A]

Most rooms are a lot deeper and wider than they are high. The 402's design accommodates this. Near-field reflections where the total
path length to your ear is less than about 40-50 feet are a problem for
the listener due to the way we process sound. We want to control these reflections and it is much more desirable to control their directivity into the room than to use absorbant material for frequencies above about 500 Hz.

Below a rectangular horn's lowest controlled frequency in both the vertical or horizontal directions, the horn effectively loses directional control and behaves more like a direct radiator. Pianos and female voices sound strange and somehow distorted. The 402 is the first horn I can recall that I've listened to that is designed to control its radiation pattern in both vertical and horizontal directions down to the lower crossover frequency. This is also where the
antenna analog comes in: it takes a big antenna (in our case a horn antenna) to do this. Turning that antenna 90 degrees doesn't get you what you want.

[Edgar]

The spec show what Don Keele says.  Also what antenna designers say. I always point this out.

Exactly. That is what I thought I was trying to say in my original response, but frankly I didn't have my brain completely engaged and missed the mark on a bunch of things. Among other things, I failed to distinguish between the radiation pattern and control of that pattern. The pattern is determined by the "cone angle" of the horn. The frequency below which the horn can no longer control that pattern is determined by the physical size of the horn -- larger horn means ability to control to lower frequency.

Ever post a message without completely thinking it through, and then wish you hadn't? That applies to my original response.

Greg

[Deang]

You could also go with the K-510, which is also a very nice horn -- and a little more manageble. The part number is KPT-904-HF, and comes with a B&C driver attached.

[ZAKO]

The 402 is actually for long throw applications....The K510 throwbubble is a better proportion for your room. In other words its like putting a Olympic size pool in your back yard, when you really dont need one

[bodcaw boy]

the 402 would work well in this application. better control of freqs to a lower cutoff minimizes reflections off floors, ceilings, walls. the 510 would work too but not as well as the 402....

in Christ, because of God's grace,

roy

[Deang]

The 402 is actually for long throw applications...

I agree. Not good at two or three feet -- you need to be at least 8 feet back.

[bodcaw boy]

The 402 is actually for long throw applications...

I agree. Not good at two or three feet -- you need to be at least 8 feet back.

yep....they don't work good as headphones....

in Christ, because of God's grace,

roy