Khorn placement

[AndyKubicki]

A few months ago, I had a few hornheads from Audio Asylum over along with Bruce Edgar, who immediately noticed that my imaging sucked because my horns were very far apart (like about 20 ft). We placed them on the shorter wall and everyone agreed that the imaging was right on. But after they left, and I started living with them that way, aside from the fact that their placement was impractical because of some French doors that the TV would block, and I watch music DVDs, I noticed a drop in the bass response. I suppose that my ears got used to the big hole in the middle and din't mind that, but if you loose the bass, what would I need KHorns for? So I moved them back. But I moved one speaker out of the corner, though still along the longer wall, but closer together by about 4 feet. They don't look as good and still have that massive bass, though on some frequencies it is just a bit less from the out of the corner-horn, yet on some other frequencies, it's almost as if the extra space boosts that bass range. Over all, it's better. I've retained the great K-Horn bass and improved the imaging. And if you look at them from the couch, they don't look too bad (till you get up and walk towrds the side of the room where the moved horn is. But the wife is not complaining, so neither am I [8-|]

[jbsl]

False corners might give you all the bass and better imaging.

Then again if the wife is not complaining and it is not a huge loss in bass might be better to leave it alone.

[JJkizak]

That's why PWK used a Cornwall for a center channel. And also Bell Labs. And also me.

JJK

[Mallette]

That's why PWK used a Cornwall for a center channel. And also Bell Labs. And also me.

JJK

As do I. Center allows tweaking of the image to perfection.

Andy...Just what is the width of the room? Seems you should be able to get a good image from 15' or so.

Dave

[fini]

Would a center channel speaker help with off-axis listening?

[Mallette]

I don't think so...but that's just my experience. Sweet spot is still the same, just a bit easier to focus. I basically use my pure two channel mode to check imaging, as I can switch on the fly from 5.1 to 2. I often do this from a mono (good 78) source as the goal is to hear the center precisely centered whether it is actually originating there or not. It can be spooky. I've had to actually put my ear directly in front of the squawker at times to convince myself it was not working in 2 channel mode.

In my experience, this setup yields the best stereo imaging for any room. I've not had a large expanse to deal with yet, but my sense is that the setup would be the same, except that with a wider spacing I think the imaging would be more even with the center in play.

In my case, I also use the center as a dialog channel for video. That requires a 6db boost over the music settings, easilly enough done by the remote...but I have to remember to switch back and forth.

Regards,
Dave

[ZAKO]

A false corner is recommended for the unit not placed in a corner,,,, You will loose some response between 200 & 400hz also.

[colterphoto1]

Maron is dead on as usual. You will still hear deep bass with the Khorns pulled out but there will be a severe suck-out around 250-400. If you really need to shorten the distance between speakers, falso corners are suggested.

[ClaudeJ1]

That's why PWK used a Cornwall for a center channel. And also Bell Labs. And also me.

JJK

Initially, yes, but, he later changed his mind and recommended a LaScala or Belle. He flet that having a direct radiator in the center had a measurable and audible distortion component, so he recommened an ALL horn setup.

I spent some time in PWK's home while he played his symphony recordings for me. He was using two false corners and the little center channel resistor box (the ones he described in the Dope From Hope newsletters).

He was also using a Crown D-60 and BGW-100 SS amps. This is in early August of 1985. I used raw birch Khorns and a mono LaScala center for over 25 years (I still use LaScalas for surround with subs). This was recommended to me in 1977 by my dealer. It works great, but I simply don't understand why there isn't a 3-Channel forum here, since PWK was pretty adamant about it and it works great.

[Mallette]

>Initially, yes, but, he later changed his mind and recommended a LaScala or Belle. He flet that having a direct radiator in the center had a measurable and audible distortion component, so he recommened an ALL horn setup.

He had the Cornwall center when I visited him. I certainly see his reasoning in his later thoughts, but rather doubt he considered it a really big deal. I wanted a Belle center and might still do so some day, but I do not expect a trully major change in sound. I find it quite seamless. Part of it is that, rather than the simple passive summing PWK used, I have active amping and can deal effectively with the efficiency mismatch. I suspect part of PWK's thinking was along those lines since, without active amping, the Belle or La Scala is going to be closer.

Much of the above is speculation, but the main point is that I do not think PWK would recommend AGAINST a Cornwall center...just a slight preference developed after a lot of listening for the all horn setup.

Dave

[psg]

A few months ago, I had a few hornheads from Audio Asylum over along with Bruce Edgar, who immediately noticed that my imaging sucked because my horns were very far apart (like about 20 ft).

20 feet isn't far apart; I don't understand. Mine are at 20 to 21 feet and there is no hole in the middle. Quite the opposite, the imaging is very good.

[cjgeraci]

Peter, I agree with you and respectfully disagree with the hornheads and yes, even with Dr. Edgar.

I've had my modded Khorns 21 feet apart for quite some time now. Even with a 7.1 including a Belle center, I never have a hole in the middle when running just the Khorns up front - and yes, the imaging is quite good. Unless I am listening to movies or DVD-Audio, the center usually stays off.

Andy, maybe I missed it. How far back was your sitting position?

Carl.

P.S. In the interest of full disclosure, I do run Trachorns without tweeters up front (w/902s), which does improve the imaging even more.

[IndyKlipschFan]

Peter...

OK, so I have been here a long time..(So please hear me out..) We have gone through this argument a gazillion times...

1) Everyones room is different..

2) 18- 24 feet is the "Ideal space" on a long wall and wide...But it also depends where your sitting... Anything less, you do not need a center... anything more.. you just might..

3) What YOU like is what really matters... Everything else..as Paul would say is BS.

Roger..

PS.. Do not let intellectually constipated audiophiles destroy your love for this hobby and what YOU like..

[Islander]

Do not let intellectually constipated audiophiles destroy your love for this hobby and what YOU like..

Yes, beware the ICA... Believe your ears.

[G.Kennedy]

Hey guys ... I was actually there for the demo that day. It was not only the distance apart .... the room was probably ... what 25 x 15(maybe 13ish) with the listening couch right against the back wall. Pretty long and narrow.

To me .. the hole in imaging was created by the open space at the (seated) left side of the back wall which lead to the kitchen. I feel (we all did) that that archway to the kitchen was sucking up a ton of sound and creating an imbalance.

Rotating the room 90deg. Andy now had two perfect corners with the K-horns 13' apart ... but then there is the french door issue as well as kinda taking over the room, as the couch would have to be smack dab in the middle (and there is the furniture console unit thingy too which would no longer be right.)

Every room is different .... K-horns are pretty sensitive to placement and corner options ..... Thats why I have La Scalas ... I have two corners available ... but the are kitty corner to each other.

[AndyKubicki]

Glen's description is correct. I left the KHorns on the shorter wall for a few days and the loss of bass was too much, so even it the French door thing was not an issue, I would have moved them back as I did. What's funny about the imaging issue is that I believe it's not just the room, but the recording as well. Years ago when I lived in Chicago, I had the horns in the basement, and I remember listening to Chicago (the band) and just closing my eyes and the music didn't seem to come from two speakers- it filled the room. When I play the same music, I can hear the same imaging. For some reason, horn music seems to image better. Maybe part of it is because engineers in those days used hard panning more than those of today (meaning some instruments might have been placed in extreme left or right positions). I'll be doing some more listening...maybe it's time for another get together []

As to the drop in some of the lower frequencies, or upper bass because of the out of corner position, there is some very deep resonance now and it sounds pretty good to my ears. Maybe I'll get tired of it. One of these days, I wanna hear some LaScallas []