Dispel my doubts!

[kdonn]

The bottom line is that I want to feel pretty confident that the RF-83 is going to impress me before I go to all the trouble to get a pair in my home. I only reluctantly call myself an audiophile and I'd much rather spend my time listening to my music than fiddling around with equipment. I've gradually collected my system over the years by very deliberately auditioning components and only sticking with what made me happy. Things went awry when I moved to a new house a few years ago and I've never gotten things quite ironed out again. I'm now running a McIntosh C39 with an MC240 for power. I've been a Henry Kloss fan since the 80s when I bought a pair of Advent Smallers. Currently I'm using a pair of Cambridge Soundworks Towers bought before Henry left CS. The bipole design really throws a lot of sound out the back and in my current room, that means out the door which means whenever I listen the whole house listens with me, more than I'd prefer.

So I've been thinking about going with a pair of Thiels but I'm worried I'd have to give up my MC240 because it might not have enough power. Which has led me to looking at Klipsch. I have very little experience listening to Klipsch but their emphasis on efficiency has got me interested. But I'm skeptical about the bass. I'd rather not have to run a sub with music mainly because it seems it would just be nearly impossible to get all the crossover, coherence, and phase issues worked out to have any hope of accuracy. What I'm mostly wondering is how a speaker like the RF-83, which doesn't get the benefit of horns for the bass, actually manage to efficiently produce bass. Am I wrong in thinking that bass is what really sucks up power? If not, is this part of how Klipsch achieves efficiency, by so greatly reducing the power consumption of the mids and highs that more power can be allocated to bass?

I know ultimately I'll just need to get a pair and listen to them for myself, but given that Paul Klipsch had such a low tolerance for BS, it seems reasonable to expect no BS in understanding how these things work. So will my MC240 be more than adequate to drive the RF-83s? Should I consider something else?

kd

[Coytee]

Welcome to the forum!

Where are you located? What's your budget? How about room size/constraints? What I'm leading to is you might want to try to hear various renditions of Klipsch, if they're close enough in your area, so you can find out for yourself.

[Mallette]

I am a Heritage type, so I've never heard RF's, but if it Klipsch you know it's good. PWK still hovers around those folks and roars "BS!" if they stray too far from his ideas.

Bass is power hungry because you have to move lots of air to get it. Efficiency is about minimizing distortion. While it is possible to build a low efficiency speaker that sounds great, it is problematic.

IMHO, high efficiency speakers sound good at any volume level, while low efficiency speakers tend to have a volume "sweet spot" and sound thinner and thinner as you reduce the volume.

Dave

[TheEvan]

I've heard the 83's. While I'm a Klipschorn owner I find the 83's an excellent speaker with a smoother overall response. The presentation, to my ears, was to the somewhat warmer side of the spectrum. It produces plenty of bass. I'm guessing that if you found the 240 adequate for the Cambridge, they will be for 83's. What music and how loud?

That said, I can't imagine living without Klipschorns. Do you have two decent corners? Now seems a good time to get a used pair for a reasonable price. Klipschorns just LOVE a 240!

[kdonn]

I'm in Little Rock. I'd need to check on dealers in the area. I'm not real sure what my budget is. I can actually afford well more than I'm willing to spend, if that makes any sense. It's not so much that I can't imagine how great a really expensive system can be, it just seems frivolous to spend that kind of money on audio. So I think realistically I can't see myself spending much more than a few thousand on speakers and I'd be delighted to find something I'm happy with under $2K, and I think that's doable. I'm not at all above buying used as well.

The room is about 14' x 21' and has sloped ceilings in part of it. The sitting area is in one end of the room so the speakers would pretty much need to be on the other end. They could be close to the wall on the far end of the room. If they were brought forward into the room, they'd have to be less separated because of furniture/doors on the long walls. On the back wall, they could be separated by as much as 10' or so, but forward in the room, they could only be about 6-7' apart. On the back wall they'd be something like 18' from the listener's head.

I don't think any of the Heritage speakers will fly mainly because my wife would veto any really big cabinets. Plus the bottom end specs on almost all the Heritage speakers seem really lacking. I listen to a lot of different music, but plenty of it will have synthesized bass that gets well under 40Hz, and again, I don't want to use a sub. But I'm willing to be told I'm mistaken.

kd

[kdonn]

I definitely found the 240 adequate for the CS Towers, but we all know that sometimes you don't miss what you've never heard. One of my old buds has a pair of McIntosh XR1052s powered by an MC2002 and a C35, and his system always seems to sound more effortless and elegant, particularly in the bass, than mine. But I've never been sure what to blame it on - my considerably more "consumer" speakers or the fact that he has 160 more McIntosh watts than I have, despite mine being tube driven. Or maybe it's just room acoustics, although we've both been through several room changes. Unfortunately he lives too far away for us to be trading components for testing. Since I'm replacing speakers for the first time in ten years, I don't want to make the mistake all over again of getting speakers that are going to nag me. I tend to think the weak link in my system is the Towers, but I just don't know.

I don't have decent corners. If I did, I would almost certainly consider used Khorns. I could probably finagle the room to come up with two corners, but it would be a radical change and my wife would almost certainly leave me.

kd

[oldenough]

Like you I didn't consider the importance of a Sub, but did in fact buy a Paradigm Servo 15 for home theatre use, I have since incorporated it into my 2 channel rig, there's no turning back now.[] Though not talked about as much as it used to be, this sub is one nice piece for music listening. Of course there are many good offerings out there and they surely have there place in 2 channel.

[seti]

I'm in Little Rock. I'd need to check on dealers in the area. I'm not real sure what my budget is. I can actually afford well more than I'm willing to spend, if that makes any sense. It's not so much that I can't imagine how great a really expensive system can be, it just seems frivolous to spend that kind of money on audio. So I think realistically I can't see myself spending much more than a few thousand on speakers and I'd be delighted to find something I'm happy with under $2K, and I think that's doable. I'm not at all above buying used as well.

The room is about 14' x 21' and has sloped ceilings in part of it. The sitting area is in one end of the room so the speakers would pretty much need to be on the other end. They could be close to the wall on the far end of the room. If they were brought forward into the room, they'd have to be less separated because of furniture/doors on the long walls. On the back wall, they could be separated by as much as 10' or so, but forward in the room, they could only be about 6-7' apart. On the back wall they'd be something like 18' from the listener's head.

I don't think any of the Heritage speakers will fly mainly because my wife would veto any really big cabinets. Plus the bottom end specs on almost all the Heritage speakers seem really lacking. I listen to a lot of different music, but plenty of it will have synthesized bass that gets well under 40Hz, and again, I don't want to use a sub. But I'm willing to be told I'm mistaken.

kd

Greetings! There are many Little Rock forum members.

If you watch Craigslist and the ArkDemGaz classifieds you should be able to find heritage Klipsch very easily. In the last month I have seen La Scalas, Klipschorns, Cornwalls, Fortes and Chorus II speakers come up for sale. The Chorus II speakers aren't really that big and they sound better than the rf line imo.

[Mallette]

>...it just seems frivolous to spend that kind of money on audio.

Spend on a car, then. Heritage are hardly frivolous and are to be handed down to your children. Many new things will come, but it is unlikely the physics of sound will be changed anytime soon. As PWK said, "I'll make a smaller Klipschorn as soon as somebody figures out a way to shorten a 32' wave."

HD TV's, computers, cars...these things become trash in only a few years. Fine audio equipment is an investment. I do not and have never had disposable income, but I have shorted other things in search of music and my family is better for it...and will say as much.

Yes, there are audiophiles who revel in the kilobucks in their systems, but many of us have had to wait for a golden moment to live our dreams. I now have two complete main systems with examples of what I consider the finest speakers every designed.

If somebody gave me a Ferrari, I'd sell it and go on a rare vinyl buying spree...

Dave

[leok]

kdonn,

One thing you said may impact the decision: "The bipole design really throws a lot of sound out the back and in my current room, that means out the door .. " I think that means you want a speaker with no rear-firing elements. Do the RF-83s have rear firing ports? If so, some of the bass will be going out the door. The La Scala and Cornwall have all front firing elements and so do a several other Heritage and non-Heritage designs.

Leo

[skonopa]

I have a pair of RF-7s hooked up to a 200 watt/channel B&K amp, and believe me, these things are not lacking in bass! The RF-83s are the current replacement to the older RF-7s and actully have gotten the chance to compare them side-by-side. There is a very slight improvement in the mid-range of the RF-83s, but not enough for me to trade in my '7s. The reason is I've brought this up is that I've had these RF-7s going on 6 years now, and I don't have any intention of getting rid of them at all! Now, that being said, I did augment my setup with a REL Storm III subwoofer as well, which I found blended wonderfully in with the system and added the extra bit of bottom that comes in quite handy, especially given the type of music I primarily listen to, which is power and progressive heavy metal. This is most certainly not your run-of-the-mill screaming vocals/thrashing guitars crap that you may have heard on the radio. This music is often very complex, incorporating many different vocal as well as musical styles (I've heard everything from jazz, eastern, folk, and classical), and in some cases, even full symphony orchestras. Not only that, last week, I scored a RW-12d on clearance, which I've also managed to successfully incorporate into my setup. Added some really nice punch to the bass as well as tended to even out the bass response a bit by allowing better coverage of the room.

And yes, I've also heard many of a Heritage setup, with all manner of tube amplification and what-not, but still quite impressed with my trusty ol' RF-7/B&K rig. Many of the folks on here, especially the 'old-timers' may prefer the Heritage, but I actually really like how my own rig sounds, even despite having heard some pretty nice Heritage rigs (LarryC's especially comes to mind). That being said, if you can score a pair of Cornwalls or such for a good price on the used market, and you can convince your wife to allow it in the house, that would be the ticket, but if not, you certainly won't go wrong with a good pair of RF-83s, and I think your MC240 would be really good with it. If don't think you'll like them or don't feel confident, then make sure you find a dealer that will let you try them at home before fully committing to them. Even if you did end up with a pair of used Heritage-type speakers and, in the end, did not really like them, you would most likely be able to get your money back selling them off again (somebody else on here would probably be happy to take them off your hands).

Yes, you don't have to spend a huge amount of money to get a good, hi-end stereo rig, despite what some snooty audiophiles types may think otherwise. Heck, even the brand-new Heritage speakers are really not that terribly expensive, considering what something like a brand new pair of B&W 802Ds or such are commending these days. But if you must, there is always the Palladium series! []

[Deang]

I strongly urge you to find some to listen to before you spend the money. Even if a hundred here tell you they are the best thing they have ever heard, that doesn't mean that you will like them.

[jdm56]

What I'm mostly wondering is how a speaker like the RF-83, which doesn't get the benefit of horns for the bass, actually manage to efficiently produce bass

I'm no expert, but in my ever-so-humble opinion I'd say Klipsch manages to get high sensitivity in the RF83 by having a lot of air moving capability, what with three high-output 8" drivers in a large enclosure that's tuned for high spl more than extension. In other words, it's a system approach, with high sensitivity and high output being the goal, rather than ultimate extension or linearity.

I think you should definitely hear the 83's before you commit, as they will be quite a change-up from your Cambridge speakers. I somehow think you might be a Cornwall fan just waiting to happen, but then again you may love the RF83. In the pre-owned world, Chorus's or KLF20's or 30's might fill the bill, too. Any of these, while not being bottom trawlers, will go down solidly to the 40Hz range or below, though, and will do it with power.

[Fish]

I had a pair of 83's,I consider them some of the best speakers I ever heard in my price range(under 5k).I had em' hooked to 75 watts per ch HK,it could get really loud and stay clean.In the end it was sell them or my 7's(as I had 20's in the corner unhooked).After much listening I just could not part with the 7's and a member here got a great deal.

[kdonn]

Thanks, everyone, for your input, and keep it coming. It has been very informative. I took off early from work and made my way over to the oldest hi-fi shop in Little Rock, Custom Audio. I had called ahead and asked whether they had RF-83s on the floor and they did. So I spent an hour and a half in a room with the RF-83s and the handful of CDs that were on my desk at work and in my car. It was a fairly eclectic little collection itself with Charlie Parker, Yo Yo Ma playing Dvorak, Black Sabbath, David Bowie, The Clash, The Arcade Fire, Foo Fighters, and Grateful Dead. Not what I would have brought if I had planned an audition, but it was good enough.

I didn't listen to them with a sub. I found them to be wonderfully detailed. The percussion attacks in particular were extraordinary. Having listened to almost nothing but Henry Kloss speakers for twenty years, the RF-83s were very bright, sometimes even a bit strident. Bass, particularly soft bass like a tympani strike or a softly kicked bass drum, was rendered with excellent subtlety and precision. But the bass that should punch you in the face on cuts from Foo Fighters and David Bowie's Outside album just wasn't there. We probably could have dialed some in, but running flat (adjusted for room acoustics) I found it to be absent. I think they were using a 130w Denon amp. The soundstage listening to Dick's Picks Vol. 4 was wide and precise and I couldn't discern any coming forward of the instruments. The imaging on the Dvorak was less steady and it seemed a little harsh on the highs here and there. I had forgotten how nicely produced the first Black Sabbath album is and it sounded excellent on the RF-83s, although again a bit lacking on the bottom end. The Charlie Parker CD I had was so poorly recorded that it wasn't really good for this.

Also in this room was a pair of Klipschorns driven with an 80w Denon. I spent about half an hour listening to that as well but only with the Dvorak. It was pretty striking how everything that was wrong with the RF-83s completely evaporated with the Klipschorns. They well deserve their price and reputation. The only thing even slightly amiss about them was that they were positioned on the long wall of the room, so they were a little far apart and the soundstage caved in a bit in the middle. But what stunning imaging and perfectly creamy response. I didn't listen to anything on them that required any bass to speak of, so I can't say anything about how it would sound, but an orchestra sounds stunning on them.

So I walked out being a little put off the RF-83s and rethinking the whole situation again. Thanks to seti who mentioned buying used Heritage speakers through Craigslist. I scouted around on it tonight and found a pair each of Chorus IIs, Klipschorns, Heresies, and Cornwalls. No La Scalas or Fortes. I've totally thought through my listening room and there is absolutely no way I'd be able to get Klipschorns in here. No way. And my wife nearly cried at the thought. I think I might be able to sell her on La Scalas, although she was completely distraught and said they looked like her grandmother's sewing machine cabinet.

And I'm rethinking the sub as well. Using a sub really broadens out my choices. I'm currently thinking to buy an RT-10d and then see what I can pick up in a used La Scala, Chorus, or Cornwall. Thoughts?

kd

[Coytee]

everything that was wrong with the RF-83s completely evaporated with the Klipschorns. They well deserve their price and reputation. The only thing even slightly amiss about them was that they were positioned on the long wall of the room, so they were a little far apart and the soundstage caved in a bit in the middle. But what stunning imaging and perfectly creamy response

Be careful which websites you say something like that.... there are many out there who will swear up & down that horns are in your face, honk-ey, screachy, more in your face, and shrill....amongst other adjectives...

Of course, you're safe saying that here, within the confines of the Mother Ship.....[Y]

I think I might be able to sell her on La Scalas

You might not be able to fit Khorns... though unfortunate, that's sometimes the case. Be warned though that the Khorns will be a LOT more wife friendly than LaScalas, as well as taking up much less room space (since they fit in corners).

I too, have a wife with tears, every time she looks at my LaScalas. I think "hideous" is one of her more often used terms.... at least when I had Khorns, she was able to try to admit they looked nicer. (she never could flat out say it, but she was trying.....well....sort of..... well....actually, she hated them too!)

[Deang]

And my wife nearly cried at the thought. I think I might be able to sell her on La Scalas, although she was completely distraught and said they looked like her grandmother's sewing machine cabinet.

One of the funnier things I've read here in a while.

What were they driving the RF-83's with? I heard them at Klipsch HQ driven with good separates and thought they sounded great. I then heard them at Carlin Audio here in Dayton with a relatively expensive Yamaha receiver and they left me cold. All of the Klipsch speakers are very sensitive to what they are pushed with. With what you are using, I think most of what you heard that concerned you would be diminished. If I would have had the money to build the front end in a way to get the best out of them, I probably would have bought them.

[kdonn]

I just can't recall what they were driving the 83s with. I know the Khorns were driven with a Denon 80w. The 83s were driven with an amp that had about 130w I remember, but I can't remember the brand, although I'm pretty sure it was also a Denon. I wasn't worrying about it too much because I had no intentions of buying them without taking them home for an audition first on my MC240.

And yes, I've heard it often said that Klipsch is very dependent upon a high quality amp and that the 240 is just about the perfect amp for these guys. So it could still happen. I'm still trying to work out all the angles. I haven't quite given up on Khorns yet.

kd

[mowntnbkr]

Kdonn,

I have RF 83's and I love them. I have a HK avr 430 that I used for HT. The RF83's had a ton of bass. Then I recently "upgraded" to a Deon 3808CI for all the 1080p HT stuff I have. The first thing I noticed with the Denon is that the RF 83's didn't have the low end punch that they did with my HK. I am not sure why, but I know the HK's emphasize high current over pure wattage and that may have something to do with it, someone correct me if I am wrong, but trust me it is the denon not the RF 83's. I actually sold my sub when I had them hooked up to the HK becuase I didn't feel I needed it, now I wish I had the sub back.

[kdonn]

That's good to hear. I've never been a fan of Denon, but I did use an HK receiver for years before moving into Mac equipment. I always loved the way my HK sounded and I found it to have a lot of the same characteristics that my Mac C39 and MC240 have today. You guys are helping, but you're not making things any easier. [^o)]

kd