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I am with you. I still tweak a bit by ear after finalizing Audyssey. Bill This is closest to my experience. My Onk 717 has the Audyssey 2EQ, which means no auto-EQ, and it measures up to 3 listening positions. I have a few opinions. I have a med sized living room 5.1, and the Audyssey works, but probably doesn't shine the best in this environment. That's because the speakers are relatively close together, and syncing everything by ear isn't all that hard. It really does do something when it comes to the TIMING of when the sound hits the LP. I would think the further your speakers are apart, and especially if they are not all exactly the same, the Audyssey melds them into a single listening unit. Even with my living room setup, Audyssey set the L/R speakers at different distances, 13.0 feet, and 13.5, and sets the sub at 25.0 feet, even though it is physically about 14 feet. I would not be able to set all that up, especially the sub, by ear. The other thing Audyssey does is set up the speakers according to REFERENCE level, which in my AVR is pre-set to 82. That means my L/R speakers might be set at -10 db, so they are properly set to reference when I go to 82 on the Onk. I would absolutely use the Audyssey for initial setup if you have it in your AVR, then AFTER that, let your ears be your guide. And if you don't like the way it sounds, simply don't use it.

There's no reason to insult the man.

So, I'm not trying to be a smart alec, but I am new here on this board, and I don't always understand some things. Am I correct that you are "Chris" and that the quoted passage is your writings? I'll assume for the sake of argument, that you did write that passage. It looked like an intelligent, well written comment on something you know something about, and except for veiled criticism against someone(s), about whom, I have no idea what you're talking about. I certainly don't see what crime you committed that the post deserved to be taken down. I also realize that post is quoted out of context, so maybe I don't have the right to come to that conclusion, as I don't see the other side. There also may be some history I don't quite get that caused the mods to react so strongly. Were there other posts connected with the above quote, which was also removed? I have seen mods remove posts from BOTH sides of some tension causing posts. As it stands, and I hope I'm not offending anybody, but I really don't see what the big deal is with the quoted post.

For the garage? Where would you put the car???

I have a year-old Onkyo TX-NR 717 and I love it, although the 818 was really considered the gem in the mid-price range. It has all the tech, HDMI ports, power and modern codecs I was looking for as I upgraded into the world of 5.1 sound. I have had zero problems, and from what I've read on the internet (take that for what it's worth) is the HDMI problems were on the lower end models, 616 and below, which used different HDMI boards from the 717 and up. Everything KlipschFan4 said about the units running hot when enclosed seems to be spot on (Post #11), with adequate ventilation being the key to longevity.

Well, that was a short thread! +++ Where are you, Mustang guy? If you want to keep private shoot me an PM, or if you don't want to say either way, that's OK too, I'm just curious, it won't hurt my feelings. There are just a few of us here from WV. I am in Parkersburg. For you non-locals, that is 2 hours from Columbus, 2.5 hours to Cincinnati and 2.5 hours to Pittsburgh.

It's new if you haven't seen it before! Two questions: Do you need pros with a large equipment investment to do this, or is there a DIY version? Does it have any application to speaker cabinets? I would love to have that carbon fibre look for some DIY speakers I am building.

Mr. Toolz, what is your budget? Will you buy or build a system? The gamers by far are the most demanding for system performance, often requiring multiple screens, using expensive video cards hooked together, and overclocking everything from CPU to video card(s) to system RAM. The i5 systems are the "sweet spot" for average computer users, with 8 MB RAM, decent separate video card (although the integrated video in some setups actually run pretty well and can save you some $$$). I am sold on SSD due to the high performance, but they really are very expensive compared to standard HDD's. Seagate now has a hybrid SSD/HDD, and many are doing what I am, which is SSD for the operating system and programs, and a larger HDD for data. And if you haven't been using multiple monitors, you don't know what you're missing. My wife likes our dual 23 inchers because she can peruse Facebook full screen on one, and our other monitor uses the Win 7 Slideshow background option to change pictures of the kids every hour. If you get something with a tuner, you can use the computer for one screen and watch TV on the other, and still change to dual monitors when needed.

Nice choice of components. That thing oughta scream! I take it you are going with just the single 500 GB SSD? A lot of people are running two SSD's in a RAID 1 configuration. The Samsung EVO's are NOT recommended for RAID. Use the 840 Pro if you think you might add a second drive for RAID. Personally, I think the single 500 is enough. Also, you are buying a KB with lighted keys? I don't know about your model in particular, but the criticism of those lit keys is sometimes a key or two will burn out, and it drives the owner crazy. I've used both wired and wireless mice and KB's. I've gravitated back to the wired versions (which are usually preferred by the serious gamers) because I get tired of replacing batteries. I use a wired gaming mouse leftover from my son's old gaming computer, Cooler Master CM Storm. I like it. but I think you get used to whatever you have. You didn't mention your case, but there are a lot of brand name and generic cases which look pretty nice. I presume you'll get a mid-tower with lots of large fans. I've got a big tower Cooler Master, not sure what model, and it's quiet, but overkill for my casual use. I am still air cooled, but I presume you will go water cooled? I don't have any recommendations, but there are a lot of them out there.

I recently upgrade to SSD for the Win 7 OS and use my Samsung 1terabyle as a data drive. Get the Samsung EVO 840, as opposed to the 840 Pro. It is optimized for home use, it flies, it's reliable, and it is only a few dollars more than the cheap ones. I was waiting for the 250 GB's to drop under $150. My EVO 250 drive was $139, through the Amazonian website. I use mine in with a SATA II and it still is a HUGE increase in speed over the old HDD's. My old Win 7 booted in 2 minutes plus , the new one in less than a minute from hitting the ON button and starting to work with Firefox fired up. You can now get the 128 SSD's for about $80, but know that Win 7 + Firefox uses about 30 GB, fresh install. My Samsung EVO 250 GB has a "turbo mode" which uses 10% of the capacity as a RAM disk (sorta). After formatting and giving up the disk space the EVO wants, I had 209 GB available, so BIGGER is BETTER, get as much capacity as your wallet will allow you. If you get the 128 GB models, don't expect to put a lot of apps on it. DO check the Youtube videos on how to optimize and set up the drive. Samsung's own Magician software will also optimize the drive for you. Highly recommended.

This web site will upload directly from your computer. On the lower, right of this post, look for "More Reply Options." It will give you the choice to Browse your computer for the appropriate .jpg or whatever picture file. Click on your photo (one at at time) tell it to "Attach this file." The last step is to tell it to "Add picture to post" (words to that effect) and it will paste your pic right into your post.

Ebay is always a good place to start. http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_trksid=p2047675.m570.l1311.R1.TR3.TRC1.A0.H0.Xklipsch+belle&_nkw=klipsch+belle&_sacat=0&_from=R40 I see a low asking price of $1600 to a high of $2400. I didn't research past that, but there is an option for searching only Completed Auctions. That might give you a better idea of what people are actually paying. As others have said, there are a lot variables, including location. I live in West Virginia, and there is not a huge demand for Klipsch in my neck of the woods.

I am still in experimental mode, as I am finishing up my re-finish job on the box. I do love learning about all this, and the Klipsch have a rep about having a characteristic sound. I don't want to re-invent the wheel, but it is fun changing minor things here and there to see if I can hear changes. I have a pretty good ear, but I also know there is a "halo effect" that when I know what changes are made, I'm instantly biased due to my expectations. My wife hates going in the basement (yay! ) so I have the luxury of moving the speakers all over, with limitations. I use two different lengths of 18 gauge speaker wire, because that's all I had laying around. Also, I have to get those speakers away from the old TV because the strong magnetic fields are turning the colors into red on one side and green on the other! They are five feet away from the wall because that's how long the speaker wire is, and away from the TV! Eventually I'll get them properly positioned, as suggested by you guys. I still need to order (hopefully today) some decent 12 ga wire, some banana plugs, and some binding posts (one post is missing completely). I'm not quite sure what I'm going to do with these speakers ultimately, so I don't know if I'll be ordering new CD's for the horn. You know I want to! As far as power is concerned, I really like the new integrated AVR's, and I love my one year-old Onkyo TX-NR717, but I know there is bigger, faster, louder out there. I am trying to stay away from separates, because I have been there and done that, but I know that the Onk at 110 wpc, even with the bi-amping, probably will come up short in the power department needed to really make these speakers shine. Still, I'd like these babies to reach their full potential, so keep making suggestions. I read everything!

Beeker: My brain is trained and programmed around 2 channel listening, so when I went to 5.1 about a year ago I really had to change the way I envisioned a sound stage. I still don't think I quite get it. But one thing I DID get from the 5.1 was the subwoofer sound, my first experience with a sub. It's not the sound coming out of the sub per se, but the sub seems to draw or reinforce the bass coming out of the front speakers. With the CF-4 I can hear the tuba, but I can't really feel the tuba. I think that is what I want to experience by adding the sub. KfanCF4: The speakers are located on a stand and I would say about a quarter of the way into the room, 5 feet from the back wall. Your guess about lack of bass due to lack of proper placement is likely correct. They emanate sound from all surfaces as I walk around them. I have these in the finished basement (carpet on the floor) and they are still set up just barely enough for me to pop in some CD's with a cheap 100 wpc receiver. Maybe I'm expecting too much with them being improperly set up. Thanks for the heads up in placement, I'll work with your suggestions. MJ: Mr. James, what am I going to do with you? I have read many of your suggestions on several threads, and I have to read, and re-read your stuff, trying to soak in all that wisdom! I saved you for last, because as usual after I read your stuff, I have questions! Vents: You are right about the vents. They are huge and when I put my hand in front of them listening loud with a lot of musical content, they are both moving massive amounts of air. You said "You can place damping on the walls but you need to keep a volume of air free to resonate for the vents to function as designed." The speaker is in four sections, and there are 1.5 inch foam "damping pads" placed loosely (not glued) behind the two woofs and the horn, (top 3/4) with a single 3/4 section of foam in the bottom where the ports are. My thinking was to NOT damp the woofs, since they are not the problem with the upper register in the horn sounding so piercing. Further, I didn't think poly fill behind the horn would have any effect since the horn doesn't really need a cab to project sound. I was thinking that the rush of air into the ports might have created some of the echo chamber sound I was hearing. I don't know any of this, I am guessing. But are you saying that by restricting the flow of air in and out of the ports, I am hurting the bass since it doesn't have an air cavity to draw from when exchanging air? If that's true, then I should ditch the poly and put the foam liner back in. The bottom line for me is I'm trying to cheaply cut back on that piercing high end, just a tad, and EQ'ing did not seem to work in what I think I am hearing. You keep writing, I'll pick my game up to the next level to try to keep up with you.

Update: Is there any more boring of an update, than to say "the paint is drying?" The second coat of poly was applied Monday, with minor sanding afterwards. The third and last coat goes on tomorrow (Friday). Brief listening summary: Wow I put 10 oz of silicon seal on each horn. It makes a 1/3 octave lower difference in the knuckle rap test, but when A/B'd with music, I really couldn't hear any difference. I took out the single 3/4 inch foam pad which was laying loosely in the bottom 1/3 of the speaker, by the two giant ports, which is under the lower of the two woofers (MTM design). I added about a pound of polyfill to that lower third. I have to say, some of the echo chamber sound is gone, I really think I could hear that. It now sounds like a spoken voice, instead of sounding like a spoken voice coming out of a PA system. I could hear the difference in an A/B test, but when listening for fun, not for a critique, qualitatively it sounds great either way, the difference is so subtle. I tried EQ'ing the treble down, tried treble flat with low end and mids up, but it really does sound best EQ'd flat. They also sound good at low/med volume with bass boost on, which surprised me, since I am not much of a bass boost fan. The sound stage is huge, imaging is UN-believable clear. CF-4's absolutely rocks and rolls with drum sounds, tenor drums, kick drums, all sorts of snare drums (wet sound, dry sound, rim shots.) Ride cymbals sound a bit tinny, but crash cymbals SPLASH and explode all over the sound stage, especially at higher volume. I'd really like to hear these with a sub. I'll experiment with my Klipsch RW 12d later on. With speakers only, you can hear the low notes but you don't feel them. I think a sub will give it more depth (ie organ music or tuba sound). To be continued.

What an unbelievable attitude. The public is in danger forever from this woman with no sense of values and a stated disregard for others. If I were the judge, I'd give her a choice; either a lifetime ban from driving, so she can text all she wants and not endanger the public, or she can choose to have a lifetime ban on owning a cell phone. Her choice.

Giving up smoking is the easiest thing in the world. I know because I've done it thousands of times.' -Mark Twain +++ I'm not sure how to take your post because it was a bit whimsical; if you're serious that you've quit drinking, then congratulations. I came from a family of alcoholics, so forgive me if I'm not as enthusiastic about drinking as I should be. (wry smile) I'm not judgmental about those who drink, it's just that I had a lot of bad experiences as a kid. I have a lot of respect for those who choose not to drink. I hope this works out for you, my friend.

OK, let me see if I've got this. You do three coats of poly, then sand it almost all back off? No sanding after the 3rd coat, just steel wool 0000. And then you apply a fourth coat? What is the Minwax product you apply after the 4th coat,which you put on with steel wool? +++ Do you change your sanding/application technique, between poly, satin, semi, or gloss? You said you put this on all your wood artwork, that sounds pretty cool. What wood artwork do you do? +++ I'd like your opinion on my recently completed work, pictured just further upstream. I am using satin, and trying to restore to a stock look, Med Oak. I applied very light poly, which got gummy after about five minutes, then dried to the touch after about 10 minutes. I expected it to be gummy for at least an hour. What does this tell you? Did I go too light on the poly, or do you think the wood was extra dry, etc. What do you think?

I don't know if you are still having tiny bubbles problems, but I had the same thing happen to me. My post #24, further upstream has a Minwax vid. It is exactly correct. I did some light sanding by hand (no sanding block) using 220, and it takes those bubbles out and the finish is very smooth. I called them "micro bubbles" as they were very small, and two hours after applying the poly if I had the patience I could take out the bubbles with my fingernail, as they were very soft. I have done two very thin coats now with satin poly (it comes out white, dries clear) and after sanding I have no bubbles and a nice, smooth finish. I was worried about the satin, but it makes the finish look factory, with no real shine or sheen to it. I have been applying the 2 coats over a 5 day period, with plenty of drying time in between. I plan to do a 3rd coat (I used a different brand than Minwax, and 3 coats are recommended) and follow the directions with the wet sanding using 600. Here is a CF-4, heavily sanded before staining, two coats of Minwax Golden Oak stain, two coats of poly, and I am waiting 3 days to apply the final coat of poly. Then I am going to listen to some music. Note: That is not the stock horn, it is a SEOS 12 with DNA-360 CD, just something I plugged in and played around with.

This begs your question; did you see the Super Klipschorns for sale, by Texas42? With $2,000 in mods, there is nothing stock about those, including the name! For $4200, would you buy his Super Klipschorn, or would you buy new for close to the same amount? If I were a collector, I would NOT buy them, because there is nothing left of original but the box. But if I wanted to listen and enjoy them, I would buy them in a flash! I guess it depends on who you are and what your purpose is with having them. I'd buy them.

Did you read the Comments section on the Klipsch website about the RF-25 Speakers? I just did a review on the DNA-360, an $80 Compression Driver with a 1" throat. It uses 2/or bolt mounting. Sonically (to my ears, not specs which I did not check), it matched up very closely with the older Klipsch K-63 tweeter. DIY Soundgroup My Un-scientific review of the DNA-360 vs K-63 on the Klipsch Forum If that tweeter really is problem, I would be hesitant to put the same flawed tweeter back into it. I would think Bob Crites would be the guy to ask.

I'm with you, Mr. CF4. After the first coat dried for a few hours, I checked the surface with my hand and was surprised to find bubbles! You couldn't even see them, they had to be found by touch, and there were just a few. They were almost micro-bubbles, felt like sandpaper, and would come off with a fingernail, but the surface definitely was not smooth. I used very light pressure by hand with 220 (no sanding block) and the bubbles came right off, no addtional wood came off. It cleaned up just like guy in the Minwax video said, and now the surface is very smooth. The satin finish was the right choice for restoring to a stock look. (the pics are different due to different lighting, but the finish looks the same in real life) Since I had to wait for the poly to dry, I popped out the horn and applied about one $5 tube,10 oz of clear pure silicon seal. The knuckle rap test shows a lowering of the pitch about 1/3 of an octave. The waveguide still rings when in the hand, but when it is screwed back in, you hear more of a "thud" than a "ping." It is shown next a compression driver, the DNA-360, mated to a SEOS 12" waveguide, pictured above on the stool. I plugged the SEOS in to compare to the Klipsch horn. They sounded exactly the same, same spl, same quality of sound, imaging, everything. I don't know if you could drop the DNA-360 with 1" throat into the Klipsch's 2" throat, but it may be helpful to someone in the future looking for an easy-to-find $75 match. +++ BTW, I didn't see the bird leave, but he left his "calling card" on top of the dryer right next to the door I left open, and we haven't heard from him since.

First coat applied; there's good news, and there's bad news. The good news is that the poly went on with NO drama whatsoever. Approximate times were: Worrying About Applying Poly-10 hours. Actual Application of Poly: About 30 minutes. Things went well because I was so well prepared by you guys, except for one thing, which I'll get to at the end. If anything I used too thin of a coat. The can says drying time is 2 hours. The poly was litterally sucked into the wood, and dried in about 10 minutes (72 degrees, little to no humidity). I held firm and resisted putting any more on there, but it dried really fast! There was no or very little smell, so the wife is happy. What the wife is NOT happy about, is what you guys forgot to prepare me for; The Bird. I opened a window and left the screen part on, but this stupid bird squeezed BETWEEN the window and the screen and got into the house! My wife hates birds and is deathly afraid of them. Now I can't find the bird, and I am deathly afraid he will leave droplets on my newly refinished speakers! You should have warned me about bird defense. I'm not blaming anybody, I'm just saying...

RGB, what material did you use to damp the horns? I have seen everything from modeling clay, silicon caulk, to car dampening CLD panels, to rubberized spray. Also, when you used the polyfil for the cabs, did you take out the foam that was already in there? Mine have loose layers of 2 pieces of foam along the sides and back. I've just now started to put some familiar music through the speakers. I don't want to overdo it for fear of losing some dynamics clarity. I know the sound of the drum and bugle corps genre (think professional jazz band, times ten times larger and louder), and I've stood in front of some DCI drum corps snare lines, and I'm telling you, these speakers come amazingly close to reproducing the sound of a LIVE 9-man drum corps snare line! For that, you need LOUD, and you need timbre to match the sound of the highly tensioned snare, you need dynamic overhead, and you need to hear the explosive CRACK when nine guys nail a rim shot. These speakers are there! Blue Devils playing Burt Bacharach, one minute sampler. This will wake you up.

Done! I had some darker Minwax Walnut stain I dabbed in the light areas, then wiped off quickly before it became too dark. Just as you predicted, the light spots are now better integrated into the overall pattern much better. Thanks! Again! +++ Edited: Everytime I think I am ready to apply poly, I stop and ponder some more because I know once I start, I am committed. I have prepped my staining area downstairs with plenty of ventilation, I removed as much dust as I could, and I plan to to use a spray bottle with water to mist the floor to keep dust down just before I apply the poly. And Satin it will be. I think I need a last minute run to Lowes for a couple of paint brushes, some mineral spirits as suggested in the Minwax video directly upstream, and some 660 sandpaper for that very last minute wet sanding before the final coat. Those videos make applying poly look easy because they use a tiny little board that is flat, face up, and perfectly prepped! I on the other hand, have 4 sides to work on. I am planning on applying poly on top, bottom and one side, let dry six hours, then turn and apply to the other side. Is this right, or do I need to have ALL sides face up when applying poly? That will take MUCH longer (like a week instead of 3-4 days, but I'll do whatever it takes to do this right. This finish has to last another 20 years.