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I figured that since there is a way to convert Q to bandwidth and vice versa for PEQ filters, that there might be a similar conversion for slope to Q and vice versa for shelf filters (and then to/from bandwidth using the previous formulas for a Xilica DSP). I think I may have found it, but I have one point of uncertainty. I also don't have an EV DSP with which to confirm this. I found a formula to convert the "slope factor" to Q and vice versa here: https://ez.analog.com/dsp/sigmadsp/f/q-a/64769/how-to-design-shelf-and-butterworth-hp-or-lp-6db-oct-12db-oct-filter. Unfortunately, the "slope factor" is not the same thing as the "slope" that EV is using. My best guess is that the "slope factor" is kind of equivalent to the "order" of the slope of the transition region (i.e. a slope factor of 1 would be 6 dB/octave). So, if you took the EV slope values and divided by 6, then you should have the slope factor. With that, you should then be able to use the following Excel formulas for a conversion spreadsheet. The dB gain is also required in these formulas. Of course, you would then need to convert the Q value to bandwidth using the previously posted formula to plug the value into a Xilica DSP. To Convert Slope Factor and dB Gain to Q for a Shelf Filter in Excel (replace A1 with the cell location containing the Slope Factor value and replace B1 with the cell location containing the dB Gain value) =1/(SQRT((10^(B1/40)+1/10^(B1/40))*(1/A1-1)+2)) To Convert Q and dB Gain to Slope Factor for a Shelf Filter in Excel (replace A1 with the cell location containing the Q value and replace B1 with the cell location containing the dB Gain value) =(10^(B1/40)+1/10^(B1/40))/((1/A1^2)-2+10^(B1/40)+1/10^(B1/40)) If anyone knows if my assumption about the EV slope to slope factor relationship is correct or not, or if you have both an EV and a Xilica DSP and can check this, please let me know. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Edit: I was doing more looking around some more and I found an interesting tidbit here: https://github.com/WebAudio/web-audio-api/issues/2428. It talks about the parameters that can be used to define shelf filters in a certain program. I've pasted it here and highlighted what I found interesting. lowshelf f0[k] width[q|s|d|o|h|k] gain Double-pole lowshelf filter. highshelf f0[k] width[q|s|d|o|h|k] gain Double-pole highshelf filter. Reference: q Q-factor (default). s Slope (shelving filters only). d Slope in dB/octave (shelving filters only). Also changes the definition of f0 from center frequency to corner frequency (like Room EQ Wizard and the Behringer DCX2496). o Bandwidth in octaves. h Bandwidth in Hz. k Bandwidth in kHz. The text in red show that the slope can be defined as s (slope factor) or d (slope in dB per octave). Using one or the other effects how the filter frequency is defined (center or corner). So, the conversion I proposed above when coming from an EV setting using dB/Octave is likely not that simple. While I think the conversion from slope factor to Q and vice versa is likely correct, it is likely not useful to go from EV slope settings to Xilica settings for shelf filters without more information. 😞

OK, all signed up. Thanks. Now I can book my travel. 🙂

@Travis In Austin - Any update on when registration for this will be available? I'd like to make sure I'm registered before I start booking travel that may be non-refundable. 🙂

I've been following the "re-animation" of this thread and I think I can help with some of this. I had saved some of the documents with DSP settings for the Underground Jubilee and the JubScala with K402/K-691 driver from this forum. I also have a settings document for the UG Jubilee with the TAD 4002. I'm not sure how current they are since I stupidly didn't document from which forum threads I had saved them. All of these have the PEQ settings defined in terms of Q instead of bandwidth. I will provide help with converting these Q values to Xilica Bandwidth numbers below. Finally, I took the Xilica XDAT file posted earlier (Cory_master jubilee-both channels.xdat), imported it into XConsole, and took screenshots of all the settings so that there is a "human-readable" document of them. The settings in the XDAT match up quite closely (but not exactly in some cases) with the PDF document with the exception of the 32 Hz bass boost which has a larger Q in the XDAT. All of these are attached. With respect to converting Q values to Bandwidth values, there are a number of calculators on the internet such as this one: http://www.sengpielaudio.com/calculator-bandwidth.htm. However, to make it even easier than plugging one number at a time into a web calculator, I used the calculation methods from this page (https://www.astralsound.com/parametric-eq.htm) to create Microsoft Excel formulas. That way you can do the conversions in bulk in a spreadsheet. To Convert Q to Bandwidth in Excel (replace A1 with the cell location containing the Q value) =(LOG((2*(A1^2)+1)/(2*(A1^2))+SQRT(((((2*(A1^2)+1)/(A1^2))^2)/4)-1)))/LOG(2) To Convert Bandwidth to Q in Excel (replace A1 with the cell location containing the Bandwidth value) =(SQRT(2^A1))/((2^A1) - 1) KPT-KHJ-KF AND K-402-hf with k-691.pdf LS AND K-402-hf with k-691.pdf Klipsch Jubilee-TAD 4002 - EV Dx38 Settings 2 Oct 2014 (1).pdf Cory_master jubilee-Xconsole_screenshots.pdf

Yes! Glad I suggested it to @Chief bonehead. Save me a spot. 🙂

Interesting. In this video Roy said that the one between the Klipschorns is the sub for the bass reflex Heritage models (Cornwall, Forte, Heresy) and there is a bigger one for the La Scala and Khorn. I wonder if that one will be close to the size of the Jubilee bass bin. More info please! 😊

Several instruments besides the obvious pipe organ or synthesizer can produce fundamentals in the region of deep bass around the first two octaves (center frequencies of 16 & 32 Hz): piano, bass (not bass guitar but string bass for orchestra/jazz), tuba, harp, contrabassoon, and others. There can also be very low bass in good recordings of all genres that pick up the room resonances, the faithful reproduction of which helps transport the listener to the venue. So, if you listen to some types of jazz, much classical music, solo piano, other music with similar instruments, or synthesizer music then you may want a sub (or true full-range speakers like the Heritage Jubilee) that can reproduce frequencies in the deep bass octaves.

Maybe I was misunderstanding you. Just to be clear for everyone, according to person who posted it on Facebook, the sub in the photo is a prototype of a forthcoming Heritage subwoofer that Roy was demoing at Audio Advice Live. He also mentioned that there was a second smaller prototype off to the side that he forgot to photograph. So, the implication is that a line of Heritage subwoofers is planned with at least two models. Perhaps @Chief bonehead could comment now as this was a public demo, so some information is now out "in the wild". Slightly off topic, @Chief bonehead - You asked me for ideas for a new Chief Bonehead class. A class on the R&D and demo sessions on this Heritage sub line would be another good one. I'd attend for sure. 🙂

The poster on Facebook mentioned that there was a second smaller Heritage sub prototype that he forgot to photograph.

The picture from Facebook is apparently a prototype of a Heritage subwoofer. I saw the post. Roy was at Audio Advice in NC apparently demoing the thing.

Is this really a nit you're going to pick? Both speakers are able to damage your hearing if played loud enough. Perhaps @Chief bonehead can comment on why that number is what it is. Yes, the JBL speakers have specs that say the response goes out to 40 kHz. This is great if your dog is trying to listen to recordings of dog whistles but is overkill for human hearing. However, it's possible that they do have a little more audible extension at the top end than the Jubilee. I have to admit, the one thing that my Klipsch Palladium series speakers do a little better than the Jubilee is produce a sense of "air" or "sparkle" at the very top end. However, it's very subtle and I don't feel like I miss it when I listen to the Jubilee as they do everything else so much better. If this is what's most important to you, then get the JBLs or something else. However, having that additional crossover point, the sonic issues that dual diaphragm compression drivers can have, and especially the direct radiator bass means that the rest of the sonic experience is going to be inferior in my opinion. Nothing beats horn-loaded bass for realism. That said, I wonder if your listening experience for the Jubilee was properly set up. Where did you hear the Heritage Jubilee? Were they near any walls or corners? If so, was the bass response corrected with something like Audyssey, Dirac, or a parametric EQ. The Jubilee are designed to have a flat response in half-space (i.e., on a floor away from the walls). If they were placed near the walls or corners, then you probably heard over-emphasized bass which might have given the impression of a weaker top end. (My one big criticism of the Jubilee as a consumer product is that it comes with no way to use the DSP to do this correction. However, most people will need to do so when placing the speakers in most normal sized rooms as putting a speaker this big away from the walls can be a problem. Fortunately, my processor has a parametric EQ that's supported by REW.) Also, were you on axis of the K-402 at the listening position? Proper toe-in is important. I found through my own experience, being too far off axis can drop off the very top end.

As I already explained, they will not be able to cover the same bandwidth to integrate properly with the Heritage Jubilee bass bin (340 Hz crossover point). They do not have the required low frequency capability, with most of them only going down to about 500 - 600 Hz. The Axi2050 is rated down to 300 Hz.

Also, the Axi2050 does not a have a small diaphragm. The AxiPeriodic annular diaphragm has a 5" voice coil. The 108 dB sensitivity combined with 150/300 W power rating means it will handle any home sound application without breaking a sweat.

As @Travis In Austin mentioned earlier and as I have also heard @Chief bonehead state numerous times in person, the larger multi-way cinema systems are done purely for additional SPL for larger cinemas. Also, other compression drivers will not be able to cover the same bandwidth to integrate properly with the Heritage Jubilee bass bin (340 Hz to 20 kHz). The Axi2050 is plenty beefy for a home system and has plenty of HF extension when EQ'd by the DSP for the K-402. As I stated earlier, I've measured the Heritage Jubilee in my home at both one meter and at the listening position. The response is flat out to 20 kHz, both by the spec sheet and my own measurements. The Cinema Grandeur is only rated flat (+/- 3 dB) to 19 Khz and is 10 dB down by 20 kHz. The Cinema Grandeur does not have better HF extension than the Heritage Jubilee.

I agree with @wuzzzer that you should get a horn sub. Any direct radiator sub will have more distortion compared to the La Scala bass bins and will not sound as clean and lifelike. As my Heritage Jubilee have taught me, there's nothing like horn-loading throughout the entire audio range.

I imagine the Belle Klipsch would be fine with that vintage of Khorns as well, considering that Paul Klipsch created the Belle Klipsch to be a more cosmetically acceptable alternative to a La Scala center in his house. This was done to make his first wife Belle happy, after whom the speaker is named. 🙂

As long as it's a similar vintage to the La Scala, I think it would match well. What version/year of La Scala do you own?

If you're willing to use a Belle Klipsch instead, there is a single one on US Audio Mart for a good price: https://www.usaudiomart.com/details/649995177-klipsch-belle-single-speakerlike-newthe-last-one-ever-made-by-klipschpick-up-only/. The problem is that the listing is pickup only on the other side of the country. Perhaps you could work with the seller to arrange packing and pallet shipping.

I used a UMIK-1 with REW to determine the bass room correction at the main listening position for my Heritage Jubilee system. In my smallish room, there was way too much bass room gain. Luckily, my processor has a built-in multichannel parametric EQ that is supported by REW.

@babadono reminded me that I forgot to mention that I have four corner bass traps from ATS Acoustics in my Jubilee room as well. I have them stacked in the rear corners behind the La Scala surrounds (because there is no room behind the Jubilee in the front). I've also been contemplating adding some diffusers to the back of the room as well.

For my Jubilee room I used the 2' x 4' x 2-inch thick "Hardened-Edge Acoustic Panels" from ATS Acoustics (https://www.atsacoustics.com/ATS-hardened-edge-acoustic-panels.html). These panels have no wood frame and are therefore very light weight. For the ceiling I created a 4-panel cloud. Since the panels are so light, I was able to hang them with some hooks with wall anchors and two lengths of closet pole using the Rotofast Cloud Anchors (with cable ties) that are one of the hanger options when purchasing the panels. For the walls, I used the same panels at the first reflection points on the side and rear walls that I located using the mirror method (putting a mirror against the wall, sitting at the listening position, and seeing there the reflections of the speakers were) and two on the front wall between the speakers. I also used the Rotofast Cloud Anchors to hang these as well. I simply used large picture frame hooks to hold the circle part of the cloud anchor. Unfortunately, the panels are a bit pricy. However, since I stink at wood working, it was worth it to me.

I would have to disagree with this. I have La Scala AL5 as surrounds in the back corners of in my Jubilee room. My seating position is only 5 1/2 ft. from each La Scala. They cohere fine at that distance and are not at all harsh as I have the levels correctly balanced for the 5.0 setup. It's the most realistic surround setup I have ever owned. I also did some quick and dirty tape measure estimating for about a 10' x 10' room. If seated close to the opposite wall, you should be around 7 ft. away. It would be a little much it you wanted it to be a "living room", but if this is going to be a "La Scala room" I would be fine with it.

I can confirm that Roy Delgado (aka @Chief bonehead) has said many times (in person and on this forum) that "smaller rooms need bigger horns". It's possible that I may be the king of large speakers in a smaller room as I have Heritage Jubilee in a 13' x 17' room. it was Roy who encouraged me to go ahead with my plans to get the Jubilee for my smallish living room. While it's now more of a "Jubilee room" than a living room, I love my setup. So, don't let any discourage you from putting larger speakers into a smaller room if you have the space and desire to accommodate them. The issues you will have with Heresy in a small room are the exact same issues that you will have with Forte or Cornwall. You will need to control room reflections, control bass room gain, and use proper toe-in. Proper room treatment, bass room correction, and experimenting with speaker position will be the solutions in either case. The larger mid-range horn in the Cornwall will actually control directivity lower and reduce reflections. I'm of the opinion that you should get the largest speakers that you are willing to put in your room.

The Celestion Axi2050 is what I used on my 2-way modified Belle Klipsch center. I selected that since I wanted to match the HF driver in my Heritage Jubilee. It is certainly a better driver than the K-691. However, what drivers are you using on your UG Jubilee? The stock K-691? If so, the perhaps you should stick to that to match. Either way, I'd go active.

Too bad you aren't closer. I would take that center off your hands. 😢 Good luck with the sale. If you want, email me the pictures and I can resize them and post them to the thread. Message me if you are interested.