The gripper thing

[HDBRbuilder]

OK, a number of YEARS ago, I became a proponent of those little peel'n'stick gripper thingies like you see for sale in Wal-Mart. I suggested a number of times to a number of folks to just pop off the gliders from LaScalas and K-horns and replace these with grippers for use on hard/smooth surface floors in order to get better bass bottom end performance. A number of folks responded to my postings, but only a very few actually tried this trck, BUT those who tried it were NORMALLY quite impressed by this cheap fix.

Now, let's get something perfectly clear here...I could care less about winning any damned popularity contest, either online or elsewhere. I am not looking for a fan following, I already have a wonderful wife and we already have a very loving and trusting relationship...so new relationships of that nature are also not what I am seeking. So, what is my motivation with this gripper thing? I just simply want folks to quit spending a bundle on snake oil remedies and listen to common sense for once!

Here we go...basic damned physics...for every ACTION,there is an equal and opposite REACTION, AGREED??

OK..if a BASS WOOFER IS MOUNTED SOLIDLY TO A MOTORBOARD, THEN ITS JOB IS TO CAUSE A CONE TO MOVE BACK AND FORTH (REACTION) TO THE ELECTRIC SIGNAL REACTING TO A MAGNET AND VOICE COIL...correct??

Common sense would dictate that the MORE solidly the woofer is mounted, the more effectively the cone will react to the electrical impulses that make it have excursion back and forth, RIGHT??

OK, the woofer is mounted to a motorboard, which is a part of a speaker CABINET. The speaker cabinet must maintain stability on the surface its sits upon in order for the solidly mounted woofer to remain "solidly mounted", correct? If the speaker cabinet is connectig to a surface by means of smooth metal disks instead of high traction neoprene disks, then it does NOT have a solid coupling to the smooth solid floor surface, does it?? Likewise, if the cabinet is joined to a CARPETED floor surface by smooth metal disks, it ALSO has no solid coupling to the floor, right?

IOW...the woofer has no "direct stability" in these situations which will alow the electro--magnetic function forcing the woofer cone back and forth instead of allowing the voice coil/magnet assembly to do part or all of the movement (remember...equal and opposite reaction).

This is why the grippers WORK, folks, wake up and smell the coffee

Cheap fixes are always better than high-prioed snake oil remedies!!

[DrWho]

Just an observation to spur some conversation...why do speakers hung from chains sound pretty much the same as when sitting on the ground? I'd think the coupling to the earth is quite different in both cases...

[HDBRbuilder]

If the weight of the speakers "Flown"by chains is ENOUGH, the the bass response CAN flow through the ceiling to SOME extent...but DIRECT coupling to the floor or the SOLID ceiling will provide more PERCEIVED bass response in the majority of situations.

[Batmans Robin]

I am not looking for a fan following, I already have a wonderful wife and we already have a very loving and trusting relationship...so new relationships of that nature are also not what I am seeking.

I am so glad that you cleared this up, because, well, I know a sweet little lass, Lynettia, who was quite taken by the kind heartedness you showed in freely giving out your gripper advice and she wanted to have a coffee with you. [] She is going to be broken up over this, sir.

[Don Richard]

Gravity couples my nearly 200 lb. speakers to the floor very, very well.

[tigerwoodKhorns]

Andy,

I see people spending quite a bit on spikes in other forums. The sad thing is one guy bought them and used them on wood floors. I just don't understand the thought process. Spikes work great on carpet to get through to the floor.

Anyway, I recomended rubber feet and agree. That's why tires are made of rubber, high coefficient of friction.

[Marvel]

Now, let's get something perfectly clear here...I could care less about winning any damned popularity contest, either online or elsewhere. I am not looking for a fan following...

You related to Craig, by any chance?

[Rudy81]

HDBRbuilder: I had followed your recommendations in this thread: http://forums.klipsch.com/forums/t/37447.aspx and am here to tell you that you are 100% correct. I had my Khorns on a carpet lined false corner. After reading your posts, I tore the carpet out, removed the bass bin metal glides and raided the Wal-Mart gripper stock. The difference is truly amazing. Bass response greatly improved and I kick myself for not having done this years ago. Thanks for your tip on the grippers.

[Groomlakearea51]

"....just pop off the gliders from LaScalas and K-horns and replace these with grippers for use on hard/smooth surface floors in order to get better bass bottom end performance."

HDBR is absolutely dead on with a practical and cost effective solution. Applies to Cornwalls, Heresy's Belles, as well, of course. The 1/4" or 3/8" thick round rubber "feet" from partsexpress do a great job as well.

[colterphoto1]

uh, yeah mang I got no problem with Grippers. Someone weewee in your canteen? []

besides I got no money, need cheap fixes.

Roger brought the Humongo Grippers over here and put them under my Khorns when I first brought them in the house. With Cherry floors worth far more than the Khorns I wasn't about to scrape them up. And they stay put. Definitely.

Michael

[Guest " "]

3 metal disk 120 degrees apart would solve the gripper problem......kinda like no 3 legged stool will ever woble....but then the question would be should the triangle point forward or backward...inward or outward....etc

[NOSValves]

Now, let's get something perfectly clear here...I could care less about winning any damned popularity contest, either online or elsewhere. I am not looking for a fan following...

You related to Craig, by any chance?

Hey now I'm watchin you [:@]

[Guest David H]

Is this what you are talking about?

[colterphoto1]

yup, dat's dem

they need to change their packaging. Says the gripper will keep your VCR from sliding off the top of you TV set. HUH???

[PhilMays]

Hmmmmm, I'll try this with my forte JJ's....of course they need no additional bass, but makes sense.

[Marvel]

Now, let's get something perfectly clear here...I could care less about winning any damned popularity contest, either online or elsewhere. I am not looking for a fan following...

You related to Craig, by any chance?

Hey now I'm watchin you

Somebody needs to be! []
Happy New Year, Craig

[JJkizak]

Them big old speakers hangin at the roller skating rink must have been gripping the ceiling with reverse gravitosous stiffis chanous.

JJK

[WMcD]

If people say they find good results, who am I to argue? I haven't done it. The good part of the tweek, though, is that it is low cost. So why should I say anything at all?

The physics though, I can't quite see because of the numbers and some experience.

1) Theory One: This is that the reaction forces of the moving diaphragm causes the box of the speaker to move, and of course that movement is 180 degrees out of phase with the diaphragm at all freqs. So, the cabinet movement will degrade the bass when the two sum. Good theory.

But. The cabinet has a mass of the box -- let me estimate -- is 100 times the mass of the diaphragm. With an LS or K-Horn, that is certainly conservative. Therefore, I can't imagine there is much movement. Further, putting a finger on the cabinets of my various speakers, I don't sense movement. Maybe this finger test is not a fair test.

The reaction theory will hold true even with infinitely stiff boxes, of course.

2) Theory Two. A good mechanical connection to the building structure allows the building to act like a sounding board..

As you can imagine, the mass issue still comes into play. I'd think that now the ratio of mass makes significant movement of the floor very small.

But here we have to consider the extent to which the building structure can move in view of its actual stiffness. (Sounding boards in musical instruments typically are not massive or stiff.) It seems very unlikely that a steel reinforced concrete slab will move significantly view of the small reaction forces imposed by the moving diaphragm. A wooden floor over joists may be less stiff and less massive, but again we don't see much deflection (stiffness issue) when loaded with hundreds of points of people walking on it. ,

3) What is wrong with my objections? I'll grant that we, as home owners do hear the effects of at least running on the floor above depending on the human's footware and mass. My home is a concrete high-rise put up in 1972 or so. There is a six- inch or greater concrete slab above and some foot fall sound comes through.

OTOH, my area is very quiet. I'll estimate that the sound level has at least 40 dB of attenuation in transmission getting to my concrete ceiling (which is still audible). That might be a figure of merit on how much the upstairs people are getting increased bass from their concrete floor.

This is part of the issue, in my mind. If we want a sounding board affect, it can't be achieved with and extra -40 dB, or even -10 dB.

That is what I think. As the sage says, YMMV.

Andy and I traded some info over the years and we met at the second pilgrimage. I have great respect for his opinions, hence (3). I'm glad to see him in good health and back on the forum. Best wishes for the New Year, Andy.

Wm McD

[colterphoto1]

Good points Gil.

To point 1). Manufacturers like Jamo have used a type of suspension mounting around their tweeters for some time. This and the number of tower speakers whose manufacturers include spikes for anchoring to the floor do so for the following reason. It is not the bass frequencies that are the issue in and of themselves. Either motor board vibration, or speaker swaying can cause detriment to the high frequencies coming from the cabinet. Imagine in an exaggerated example that the speaker cabinet has forward/backward sway commensurate with certain bass frequencies, even a minor shift in the position of the tweeter might cause phase irregularities.

2) There is a huge difference in mass and stiffness between 6 inches of steel reinforced high-strength concrete and the standard 2x construction of the typical American home.

As one who has lived in several wood framed homes, I can state that the cabinet vibrations transferred to the building's frame members can defintely cause a sensation that I call 'floor shock'. This sympathic vibration of floor joists and wood floors is more pronounced depending on where the speakers and listener are situated. For instance, at one point I had my THX subs about 10' from me and they were located on the same two floor joists that were underneath my usual chair. The sensations, while cool at first, gradually became bothersome as I realized that I was feeling sound, but that this was detracting from the more pure waves being received my my ears and body through the air waves. Moving them to a corner location farther from my seating has ceased this distraction.

Even at fairly low levels my gallery room can become 'energized' by my Klipschorns even though they are in the corners (a strong part of the home structure) and up on the gripper pads. At low listening levels this in not apparent, but advancing the gain I quickly realize some vibration through my very dense Brazilian Cherry floor. I plan on adding a stiffening beam down the 16' width to stablize the structure more.

[DrWho]

I think "floor shock" is the biggest factor, enhancing the physical presence of the bass...not so much changing what our ears are recieving.