greg928gts Posted January 3, 2009 Share Posted January 3, 2009 I'm not into voodoo audio, trust me, but this was very interesting. A week or so ago, I visited a customer of mine to look at his heating system, and spent a few minutes listening to his stereo system. He had cone feet, brass feet, platforms, weights, foam blocks and a bunch of other stuff all over, under, and around his whole system. He claimed that the foam blocks he bough for $20 each that held his speaker wires up off the floor were a better upgrade in sound than the recent purchase of a $6K integrated tube amplifier. On the way out the door he hands me a box of plastic cone feet, probably 40 of them. So I'm sitting in the living room tonight listening to a Jackson Browne CD through my Scott 299A and the Jubilees with the passive networks, and things were sounding really good. I decided I'd try putting these cone feet under my CD player to see what, if any changes I'd hear. My CD front end consists of a power supply, which is a 1.5" tall x 17" x 15" box, then stacked on that is the DAC, which is the same size as the power supply, then the 20lb Denon transport, then a small anti-jitter box on top of that. So I put three cone feet under each of these components in the stack and sat back down, put on the same song I was just listening to before I started this experiment, at the same volume. I was shocked. I really didn't think there'd be any difference at all. I won't bore with too many details about what I heard, I'm still not sure I know for sure, but let's just say it was very different. Three things really stuck out. The imaging of vocals and instruments was clearly improved, the separation of instruments was noticeably better, and the bass lost some of it's punch (but had the same extension, the low bass was still there). These things were REALLY noticeable, I'm not talking about something that I'm hearing that you wouldn't. Anyone who spends any time at all intently listening to their system would immediately hear these differences that I'm talking about. I took the feet out from under the transport and tried the same song again, same volume. The bass punch came back, the imaging flattened out, and the separation of instruments smeared a little. Not terrible, but noticeable. I put the feet back in, and the everything changed back. Before Jackson Browne, I was listening to Supertramp Breakfast in America, and I was unimpressed by the studio mix and just wrote it off as a cheap CD that was recorded for radio and not for audiophiles. I suffered through it, enjoying the music, but not the sound. But I put it back on after the isolation feet and what a difference! Still some issues, but wow, such a noticeable improvement. I am still shocked by this, I would have never guessed that isolation feet could make such a difference. I went online and found a really good article that explains the myth about cone shaped feet, and how you don't need to spend a lot of money on fancy feet, that sometimes free feet might sound better, and that different feet produce a different sound, etc... The author makes some very good points and it was a good read. Here's the link http://www.soundstage.com/maxdb/maxdb200207.htm What I experienced tonight with the cone feet and reading this article have really opened my eyes to what can be done with isolation of components. It will be interesting to experiment with this some more. I'm still skeptical that isolation of things like the passive networks I'm using for the Jubilees will make any difference, or that elevating speaker wire on foam blocks will make any difference, but who knows? After what I just witnessed first hand with some rather plain looking plastic cone feet, anything is possible. I think the biggest difference was made by isolating my transport, and that makes some sense to me. I might try isolating only that component to see if I notice the same difference. I'm not suggesting that everyone run out and buy isolation feet, but I am suggesting that you try something, anything, to pick up your CD player and other components on three points and see what kind of difference it makes in the sound. You could use thread spools, small blocks of wood, rocks, etc... You might be surprised, I was. Greg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Groomlakearea51 Posted January 3, 2009 Share Posted January 3, 2009 No voodoo science there Greg. The author is very clear and tells it like it is. I know from experience that vibration and resonance can affect the CD mechanisms when reading (and recording...). I have two TASCAM CD recorders; one for general playback and the other a 222 with the RIAA phono amp built in to do the recordings. They are "stacked" more for convenience and space than anything else. The one on top (the lesser of the two) sounds great. But when I stacked that one on the 222, the 222 sounded awful. Removed. Sounded great, back on... Awful. Put different better and wider rubber "feet" on both units and voila, back to the "sounded great" category. The only explanation could be resonance (vibrations) in the stand (made of 3/4 birch plywood) passing through the el cheapo feet to the chassis's. The position of the feet on the unit on top just happened to be the right (or "bad") position to cause the problem. I also tried both units sitting by themselves with their new "feet". Yup... sounded better. Simple tweaks based upon proven and demonstrable physical principles is a good thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colterphoto1 Posted January 3, 2009 Share Posted January 3, 2009 The Ah! tube CD player that I bought from JWCullison has upgraded hot rod feet (not cones, but shock absorbing isolation mounts) and the sound is as Greg described. He sent the original plastic feeties, I might put them back on and experiement as you guys have done. Now where are my crystals? M Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fenderbender Posted January 3, 2009 Share Posted January 3, 2009 The Ah! tube CD player that I bought from JWCullison has upgraded hot rod feet (not cones, but shock absorbing isolation mounts) and the sound is as Greg described. He sent the original plastic feeties, I might put them back on and experiement as you guys have done. Now where are my crystals? M Do it!!! I have the exact same player and I can tell a difference when I switched feet....not hugh but definitely different.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators dtel Posted January 3, 2009 Moderators Share Posted January 3, 2009 That may explain why women with high heel shoes seem to sound better, or something ! [] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hifi jim Posted January 3, 2009 Share Posted January 3, 2009 Although I noticed an improvement in my transport, the biggest difference for me was under the DAC. Digital is supposedly very sensitive to vibration, and those with digital amps that have tried vibration isolation techniques have also reported great results. The Shakti stones that are placed on top, also improve digital performance from what I've heard at my dealer, but I've yet to try one in my own system. Also, using two sets of cones with a piece of hard maple, or other hardwood will take the effect up a notch as well. The type wood will have some affect on the sound as well, and care should be used to make sure the cones are not on top of one another. In other words, place three cones on the bottom, 2 in back and 1 in front and then on top of the slab of wood (or ideally a Black Diamond Racing Isolation Shelf, if money is no object), place 2 cones in front and 1 in the back. I used a similar setup under a DAC for while and used a piece of a Brazilian hardwood called Ipe which is often used for decking and I found on a job for free. Thanks for sharing your experience Greg. Keep tweaking! [Y] [] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg928gts Posted January 3, 2009 Author Share Posted January 3, 2009 Interesting, I purposely lined up the feet one over another. I see I'll be making some more tweaks. This hobby keeps getting more and more complicated. I have some thick pieces of Lexan, that seems like it would be pretty dense material to use as a platform. I'm going to try making some hardwood block feet. The guy I bought my CD front end from, installed Dynamat material under the DAC and under the top panel on the inside of the DAC. Who knows? That could be a good thing, or it could be mucking up the whole soundstage! I'm not peeling it off to find out. [] Greg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colterphoto1 Posted January 3, 2009 Share Posted January 3, 2009 One would think that any mass added to the chassis or via housing would be a good thing if we're interested in dampening vibrations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colterphoto1 Posted January 3, 2009 Share Posted January 3, 2009 That may explain why women with high heel shoes seem to sound better, or something ! [German accent] Ah yes it's the sound of hobnailed boots coming down the hall that I treasure mein furher, er, Dickey old chum! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jt1stcav Posted January 3, 2009 Share Posted January 3, 2009 I have a quad of Dayton Audio solid brass (black chrome) isolation cones underneath my Cambridge Audio azur 640C disc player. I've experimented with and without the cones numerous times when I first purchased them, and truthfully to my tin ears I hear no difference whatsoever, even with the same music and volume settings! I don't doubt there aren't any differences...I just don't seem to detect any. The player doesn't sound smeared or less focused on its own plastic feet, and with the addition of the brass cones the same source material doesn't sound any worse or better. I've also got brass cones under both my tube amp and preamp, and again, no differences at all that my tone-deaf ears can pick up...my music just sounds great regardless! Maybe I just can't detect slight improvements, or I really do have tin ears! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tigerwoodKhorns Posted January 3, 2009 Share Posted January 3, 2009 I have glass shelves on my audio rack and was considering making replacement shelves out of Mahogony veneered plywood. I wonder if it would help or hurt otherwise? I also have a good sized piece of solid Mahogony that I coudl make feet out of, but I hate to waste it if there is no difference. As an aside, I re-routed all of my cables last night. All power away from RCA's and all RCA's twisted together for their runs. It definately reduced low level hum in the system and was worth the effort. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LarryC Posted January 3, 2009 Share Posted January 3, 2009 Intuitively, I agree with Doug Blackburn that we're dealing with resonances, and that cones, blocks, etc., will CHANGE the resonances but NOT do away with them. Hence his emphasis on "tuning" the sound of the system with cones rather than hoping to eliminate resonances. I also THINK Blackburn said that an isolation platform will actually decouple a component from resonances from the floor or platform, although I don't see him suggesting that it would reduce resonances within the component itself. I suspect that decoupling would be preferable to modifying via cones or blocks. I have Townshend Sinks, which decouples IMO, beneath both my TT and CD transport. Having tried both those pieces with and without the sinks, I believe the Townshends do a very effective job of bring about the kind of benefits that Greg described. BTW, the CDT benefitted even though Wadia had already incorporated inverted cone feet (bottom corners in this pic)! -- At the same time, the Sink did no good whatsoever under the Wadia DAC. I concluded from this that resonances affect the CD transport drive mechanism and that the Sink reduces them, more than the cone feet. I also suspect that the Sink damps out resonances within transports and TTs, as well as from racks and floors -- it has a heavy top and bottom plate, and the top plate has a rubberized surface, which probably absorbs vibration, and is isolated from the bottom by rubber air bladders. This damping probably occurs with the TT as well, since the effect is the same for my LPs. Unfortunately, the Townshend Sink is no longer made, but does show up at times on Audiogon -- http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?accstwek&1235763740&/2-Townshend-Seismic-Sinks-1STD (this model is for medium-sized, lighter-weight components). YMMV, to be sure! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jt1stcav Posted January 4, 2009 Share Posted January 4, 2009 Interesting, Larry...I can appreciate the concept of air bladder-type platforms underneath 'tables and transports. Someday I may experiment with them ($$$ permitting, natch). My audio rack is steel with glass shelves sitting on brass cone feet on a solid concrete floor (the glass shelves sit on hard rubber pucks that are attached to the steel shelf frames). I assume this is why I detect no differences in sound from my disc player with or without its own brass cones. Maybe this is why I can relate to Doug's 6th point of his article: "Anything you put under your components changes the way they sound to some degree. If you don’t hear the change, the degree may be inconsequential or you don’t listen to the sorts of things that are changed by different footers. You are probably lucky; enjoy not having to spend money to get footers that sound a certain way." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcmusic Posted January 4, 2009 Share Posted January 4, 2009 Interesting that I have the same type of rack as Jim, steel frame, glass shelves sitting on hard rubber gromets. I have never tried any cones or isolation type products, so I won't comment on that, but I also have never felt the need to. I kinda feel like once you start down that road it is going to be a never ending journey trying every cone or isolation device known to mankind in pusuit of perfect sound, when it might not exist. Jay Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joshnich Posted January 4, 2009 Share Posted January 4, 2009 Interesting, Larry...I can appreciate the concept of air bladder-type platforms underneath 'tables and transports. Someday I may experiment with them ($$$ permitting, natch). My audio rack is steel with glass shelves sitting on brass cone feet on a solid concrete floor (the glass shelves sit on hard rubber pucks that are attached to the steel shelf frames). I assume this is why I detect no differences in sound from my disc player with or without its own brass cones. Maybe this is why I can relate to Doug's 6th point of his article: "Anything you put under your components changes the way they sound to some degree. If you don’t hear the change, the degree may be inconsequential or you don’t listen to the sorts of things that are changed by different footers. You are probably lucky; enjoy not having to spend money to get footers that sound a certain way." A local audio shop that sells mega dollar equipment, uses slate or other stone pieces as platforms with small bicycle innertubes as the bladder under them. Looks to be a pretty good way to provide isolation particularly under a turntable. Also very affordable. Josh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Batmans Robin Posted January 4, 2009 Share Posted January 4, 2009 Sounds like a load of crap to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joshnich Posted January 4, 2009 Share Posted January 4, 2009 Sounds like a load of crap to me. Until you have actually heard the difference I am sure it does. I would suggest you try some isolation devices on your turntable see if you can hear a difference. If you cannot than great you cannot. So be it. But please dont denegrate others ability to hear what you do not. Regards Josh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fenderbender Posted January 5, 2009 Share Posted January 5, 2009 Sounds like a load of crap to me. Until you have actually heard the difference I am sure it does. I would suggest you try some isolation devices on your turntable see if you can hear a difference. If you cannot than great you cannot. So be it. But please dont denegrate others ability to hear what you do not. Regards Josh [Y] The whole issue is very subjective.....same goes for cables, speaker wire, etc. Heck some folks can't tell the difference (not that thats a bad thing) between vinyl pressings or different Carts cost 10X's.....to some a cymbal crash lasting a 0.1 sec longer means nothing, to some it's everything, so I personally would never tell anybody what they can and cannot hear or like.... Same goes for food and wine....heck some folks love a top sirloin cooked medium well, smothered in A-1.......others love a bone in ribeye...others a prime center cut filet sautéed in clarified butter..........who is to say who's taste buds are correct??? you like what you like! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joshnich Posted January 5, 2009 Share Posted January 5, 2009 Sounds like a load of crap to me. Until you have actually heard the difference I am sure it does. I would suggest you try some isolation devices on your turntable see if you can hear a difference. If you cannot than great you cannot. So be it. But please dont denegrate others ability to hear what you do not. Regards Josh The whole issue is very subjective.....same goes for cables, speaker wire, etc. Heck some folks can't tell the difference (not that thats a bad thing) between vinyl pressings or different Carts cost 10X's.....to some a cymbal crash lasting a 0.1 sec longer means nothing, to some it's everything, so I personally would never tell anybody what they can and cannot hear or like.... Same goes for food and wine....heck some folks love a top sirloin cooked medium well, smothered in A-1.......others love a bone in ribeye...others a prime center cut filet sautéed in clarified butter..........who is to say who's taste buds are correct??? you like what you like! Exact-lamente! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
germerikan Posted January 6, 2009 Share Posted January 6, 2009 Same goes for food and wine....heck some folks love a top sirloin cooked medium well, smothered in A-1.......others love a bone in ribeye...others a prime center cut filet sautéed in clarified butter..........who is to say who's taste buds are correct??? you like what you like! Thanks now I´m hungry!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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