Khorn replacement woofer that goes up to 800Hz with similar sensitivity?

[Ki Choi]

Well, I have been itching to upgrade my current Khorns with ALK Trachorns and BEC AAs. With Greg's 2" V-Trachorns and newer ALK crossovers available, choices are many to count. I have asked similar question before but my own assessment - as well as many in forum - is that there are rooms for improvements in mid horn and the tweeter but the bass bin is still the best.

I know the new Jub bass bins with two drivers must be better but for my smallish room, I am content with the Khorn bass bin. I had recently experiemented with the bass bins just as subwoofers with electronics crossover (51Hz for B&Ws and 109Hz for Quad ESL-63s at 18db/Oct) and 200W SS amps. It was most realistic bass I had in my room. Only other set up that may have bettered was when I had the full range SoundLab A-1 electrostic speakers driven by a pair of 500W monoblocks.

So the having-the-cake-and-eating-it-too wild idea is to keep the bass bin cabinet and find a replacement woofer that will go from 30Hz and up to around 800Hz like the Jub woofers for a two way system with 2" driver (like Beyma CP750ND) and matching horn for the top to be mounted on top of the bass bins with angle adjustment for the best imagining capability. I have seen modern 15" woofers that will go from 20Hz to 2.5Khz but has much lower sensitivity (~97dB). I guess I can still have electronic crossover with dedicated amp to compensate the bass level to the upper horn but prefer passive two-way crossover.

I would imagine this thought may have been discussed here earlier, if so - sorry.

Ki

[PrestonTom]

Ahhh, if it were only so simple.

The woofer (K-33) is not what is preventing the response from going up toward 800Hz. Rather it is the geometry of the folding in the K-Horn cabinet. If you look at the JAES article (Delgado et al, 2000). You will see two folding geometries that were tried in the Jubilee bass bin (both using the same K-31 drivers). Notice the difference in the geometry of the last fold (point "C" in the "current" and "prototype", IIRC). Now notice the difference in frequency extension. The K-Horn folding had a similar problem. So don't spend you time and money on a different driver. Incidentally, getting any bass bin to extend from 40 Hz to 800 Hz (over 4 octaves) is going to be difficult. The Jubilee does it however.

Since you are still in the planning stage, please don't limit your consideration to just the HF drivers & horns that you originally mentioned.

Good Luck,

-Tom

[seti]

I was told with a little eq the Khorn LF would top out at a little over 500hz. I have JubClones and the perfomance is amazing. Recently I measured one of the bass bins and the performance was good out to 1khz. That is just amazing. Now I started down the same road as Ki Choi by wanting to cross higher despite being told by IBSlammin that it isn't good to have too much coming out of the bass horn. I didn't listen and kept talking to others about wanting to cross higher with the bass bin so that it would open up more opportunity for different horns and drivers so I could go two way cheaper. After chatting with Bill Woods of acoustichorn.com via email he said that female vocals don't sound right coming out of the bass horn. It just didn't voice right. I had to eat crow on that one and called IBslammin to say he was right. The upper limit for bass horns is about 700. I was told that would be pushing it. Right now I am crossing at 600 which is also where PWK crossed the Jubilee. If it was good enough for him it is good enough for me.

[mikebse2a3]

Just as important as the bandwidth improvement of the Jubilee LF Horn is the even lower distortion of the Jubilee LF Horn design versus the KHorn LF design.

mike tn

[Ki Choi]

Hi Guys:

Thanks for your inputs. Nice thought but not practical to stretch the Khorn bass bin.... However, my goal is to have more simpler 2 way system with improvements of Khorns - Jubs I guess.

It seems, I'll have to wait for Greg to come up with custom made Jub bass bins first and then think about the HF horn and driver or I remember some old posts on commercial version of the Jub bass bins - I'll do a search.

Ki

[Marvel]

Ki,

From the sound of this, you haven't been on here for a while. THere are a whole lot of folks on here who have purchased the commercial Jubilee bass bin, and added the K402 horn with either the Klipsch k69/P.Audio BMD750 or a TAD driver for a two way system. Some are using the K510 horn on top ( smaller and perhaps more WAF)

Some have gone with the Klipsch MWM bass and the K402 horn...

Two way is possible for sure.

Bruce

[whatever55]

Ki,

From the sound of this, you haven't been on here for a while. THere are a whole lot of folks on here who have purchased the commercial Jubilee bass bin, and added the K402 horn with either the Klipsch k69/P.Audio BMD750 or a TAD driver for a two way system. Some are using the K510 horn on top ( smaller and perhaps more WAF)

Some have gone with the Klipsch MWM bass and the K402 horn...

Two way is possible for sure.

Bruce

P.Audio BMD750 Who is using this and what are they using as a crossover ??

Thanks

[Marvel]

The P.Audio BMD750 driver is the exact same driver that Klipsch uses as their K69. Those who have bought the commercial versions of the Klipsch Jubilee (535), often use this driver on the K402 horn in a two way setup. Most are using an active crossover, although some have built passives.

I'm not sure where they cross...

Some are using TAD drivers, although the cost goes up significantly. Others are using the K402 horn with MWM bass bins in a two way config.

Bruce

[Coytee]

I'm not wanting to sound like a Mr know it all but according to my memory, (my notes are at office) most everyone with Jubilees has bought them with the K402/K69 combo. Bob Riff won a pair at the Klipsch company event, and his have what I thought was a BMS driver on them? (his had the K510 horn) Again, my notes are at work. It might not be a BMS but regardless of what it is, he is the only one that I'm aware of that is not using the K69... well, other than the three that are using the TAD but, they all started with the K69 so I'm still 'kinda right' in my comment []

Most are in fact, using either active (Dx38) as a stand alone, or the Crown Xti amps with the crossover built in. There are a handful that are using passives or have an active in addition to a passive for trying both. I don't think anyone purchased the TAD drivers "new" with their Jubilee purchase although I think Roy is (or was?) wanting to try to offer that as an option for companies (and therefore us?) who wanted a cost no object solution. The TAD is a distinct improvement over the K69 but so far, my Mr. Budget says it's not a $3,000 plus improvement!! I'll probably have a pair someday though since it is in my view, the quickest, most obvious, single improvement I've heard to them.

[Islander]

Ki, if you were to replace your Khorns with a pair of Jubilees, I think you'd be so pleased you'd never look back. The Khorn is a fine design, but PWK had a lot of good ideas between 1947 and 2001 and the Jubilee incorporates a number of them.

As well, the Jubilee is a factory/lab tested design. Roy Delgado has the knowledge, skills and tools to get the best from them, which would likely be better than any home tweaking efforts on Khorns. His initial Dx38 processor/crossover settings were good, then he released updated settings that sound even better, and it took only a few minutes to punch them in. Since the Dx38 can hold 30 user programs, I just put the new program on a second page, so I can switch back and forth easily if I'm not sure that the new one is better than the old one, plus there's room for any new programs Roy comes up with.

As Coytee mentioned, there are some Jubilee owners using passive crossovers, but the electronic crossover/bi-amped setup offers a lot more flexibility, plus the delay units in the Dx allow you to time-align the bass and treble horns. Correct time-alignment is a subtle improvement, but it can be heard and I'm glad my setup has it.

If you're ever in town, you're more than welcome to stop by and have a listen to my system. You already know how good the amps sound. []

[Ki Choi]

Thanks Pat and others for constructive comments.

Yes, I have been away from this forum for a while. I do want to get to the Jub level performance sooner or later.

After trying majority of speakers designs, I found myself always coming back to the trusty Khorns. Just before leaving for current trip,

I hooked up one of my 8Bs and was wondering how much better the Jubs can sound? This is pretty good. Matter of fact, better than all the other speakers I had in the same room. I will take a photo of my naked Trachorn/CP25/BEC AA setup.

Good to hear from you Pat. I will cerntainly make a visit. Same for you - when you are in Seattle area. We can grab a bite to eat and listen to music... What more acan a man ask for...?

Ki

[Ki Choi]

BTW, there was a forum member who had purchased several commercial version of Jub bass bins and was selling them.

Anyone had the info?

Thanks,

Ki

[Gent]

BTW, there was a forum member who had purchased several commercial version of Jub bass bins and was selling them.

Anyone had the info?

Thanks,

Ki

How did you get to know that someone has purchased jub bass?

Anyways i don't have such info.

[Islander]

It seems to me that it was a very enthusiastic guy from Hawaii who'd bought some Jubilee bass bins from a defunct cinema, but he hasn't posted here in months.

[Ki Choi]

Thanks Pat for the info.

It seem I can get one pair of Jub bass bins for $4600 from Klipsch directly.

I'll do a pre-summer sale of some of my audio toys and get them eventually.

Ki

[Coytee]

I've had the cool-aid so discount my comment to what it's worth...

You specifically state the bass bins... what would you be running on top with them?

My opinion is (and there are one or two that would disagree with me) the K402 is part of the great sound of the Jubilee. I've heard that horn sitting on top of a lowely LaScala bass bin, on top of a Jubilee bass bin and on top of a MWM (double) bass bin. It sounded phenomial in all circumstances.

This isn't to say there are other good sounding HF horns out there. I personally wanted to stick with a fully engineered (if not asthetic at the time) product and I must say... in the 30 years I've been playing in this hobby, I've never heard anything come close to the performance of these things, let alone when you bring price/value into the equation.

[seti]

You can also get a pair with veneered front panel from Hope. For an upcharge but they look great.

[kwingylee]

Seti:

I am about to take delivery on a pair on Jub clones. Pretty much in the same place as expressed by "Ki" - being that I have not 100% committed to the mid/top section. What did you end up doing in yours? Can you post some pictures? I am trying to see what others have done. WAF is a big big factor here if I am ever going to get these into my house.

Kwing

[Coytee]

What did you end up doing in yours?

If I might take a liberty to rephrase your question to him.... "Seti, what do you ultimately hope to mate with your bass bins?"

If he's retentive like me and simply answers your question, you might have an incomplete answer [A]

WAF? Just remind her that women are always asking/telling us guys to lower the seat. Do we EVER ask them to raise it on our behalf?

Simply remind her of all the times you've sacraficed 1.4038 seconds of your life to lower the seat for her.

Fluffing up the pillows on the couch in the garage might be a good thing to do right afterwards

[8-)] []

[seti]

Seti:

I am about to take delivery on a pair on Jub clones. Pretty much in the same place as expressed by "Ki" - being that I have not 100% committed to the mid/top section. What did you end up doing in yours? Can you post some pictures? I am trying to see what others have done. WAF is a big big factor here if I am ever going to get these into my house.

Kwing

Don't worry about waf just compromise on something she wants : )

If money were no object I would have a TAD4000 series driver with a couple pairs of horns to try K402, K510, TAD TH4001 and AH!500. I'm really curious about the AH! horn from acoustichorn.com . EV DX38 is also the crossover I would use. It just makes more since to go active especially for experimentation. Well since money is an issue I've gone the budget route with Alltec511b/GPA902-8A for now. I was given a great deal and found I really do like the combo. I'm investigating drivers like B&C DCX50 and TAD2001. The TAD2001 is my goal as far as drivers. They can be had on ebay for much less than the 4002 drivers and similar performance but doesn't go as low. They do go low enough. Although if you bought 4002 drivers they would be the last drivers you would need to buy. Their performance is staggering.

I won't do anything about looks until I get a configuration I am going to stick with. Then it is black paint with zebrawood frontpanel with cane grill inserts.