colterphoto1 Posted June 2, 2009 Share Posted June 2, 2009 Need help understanding the differences between the DX38 settings and what was last published for the XTi amps. I have two XTi2000 and am now ready to get System Architect to program the amps but have some questions about the data files. Can someone please help? M Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebse2a3 Posted June 2, 2009 Share Posted June 2, 2009 Hey Michael You might e-mail Bill Hendrix since he runs crown xti? I run the EV DX38 so I'm not sure if I can help with your questions/need but if you think I can e-mail me and I'll get back with you as soon as possible. mike tn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark1101 Posted June 3, 2009 Share Posted June 3, 2009 I got really good with that software when I have my Crowns. Maybe I could help you Mike. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colterphoto1 Posted June 3, 2009 Author Share Posted June 3, 2009 To post publicly so that others here might learn about the Jubilees, my question revolves around making the equalization settings for the Jubilee loudspeaker system. The engineer orignially did this with the EV DX38 and I have those figures, then some of the guys got the idea to use the Crown XTi amps, with built in DSP processing. I have both sets of those figures, the table for DX38, and screen shots for the XTi, and there are several differences that I can't reconcile. Can you help with this? The crossover points and some of the PEQ settings are different. I understand that we want to use the steepest xover slopes available, hence the 24 db/octave with DX39 and 48 db/octave with XTi, but why are other figures different? Also, on the XTi, do I use PEQ prior to xover or after? Or a combination? Thanks, I'm looking forward to getting these Jubilees sounding as fantastic as they did in the lab. It's been a year! [:$] Michael Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seti Posted June 3, 2009 Share Posted June 3, 2009 To post publicly so that others here might learn about the Jubilees, my question revolves around making the equalization settings for the Jubilee loudspeaker system. The engineer orignially did this with the EV DX38 and I have those figures, then some of the guys got the idea to use the Crown XTi amps, with built in DSP processing. I have both sets of those figures, the table for DX38, and screen shots for the XTi, and there are several differences that I can't reconcile. Can you help with this? The crossover points and some of the PEQ settings are different. I understand that we want to use the steepest xover slopes available, hence the 24 db/octave with DX39 and 48 db/octave with XTi, but why are other figures different? Also, on the XTi, do I use PEQ prior to xover or after? Or a combination? Thanks, I'm looking forward to getting these Jubilees sounding as fantastic as they did in the lab. It's been a year! Michael Excellent I'm glad your going to get those singing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark1101 Posted June 3, 2009 Share Posted June 3, 2009 MIke, Roy derived the Crown XTI settings to match the chamber performance of the DX-38 settings. That is why they look different. He did not just match them up one for one. It was about achieving the same performance. In the SA software it makes no difference if you program the PEQ first or do the crossover frequencies, or delay, or levels. It can be done in any order. It will come out the same. I would just recommend that you get the latest XTI settings that added a little more sizzle to the top end and also the bass boost. SA is easy to use and send the settings into the Crowns. Just take your time and once you have everything programmed, go back over all the PEQ settings, delays, and crossover and make sure everything is still correct before sending. Of course save along the way so you don't lose anything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colterphoto1 Posted June 3, 2009 Author Share Posted June 3, 2009 Thanks, it seems there are several ways of saving. I'm not obviously saving a venue setup. Save as a DEVICE? I understand what you're saying about the setups. The DX has two shelf settings for the 402/69 which the DX won't do, so perhaps the change of xover point and a couple of other eq settings make up for this. However others I'm kind of hesitant about. For instance, on the KHJ LF bin there is a 180 Hz Q12 gain -4 for the DX where the XTi specs 108Hz Q6 -6, that just seems odd, should they both be 180 Hz? Could you send me or post the latest XTi settings please? I have the bass bump setting at 32Hz Q12 +7 if that's still correct Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark1101 Posted June 3, 2009 Share Posted June 3, 2009 Mike, Yes......save as device. When you open SA select Crown XTI on the left and it will come into the venue. Then double click it and the "device" opens allowing you to select all the parameters. You can then either save the device or venue I believe. I don't think it mattered because either file gets saved and can be opened later. There is really no reason to have a "venue" if you only have 1 device. Basically both units get programmed from the same "device" when you hook up the USB. The Crown XTI does not have the capability to implement all the shelves. You have to make an intelligent choice about what to leave out. Go in there and program all the PEQ and add the shelves last. This way you can watch each shelf and see how much it influences the overall curve. Leave out the one that does the least. That's the best I can offer without any software and settings in front of me. I used to have the file and would have just been able to email it to you. But I cleaned all that stuff off my PCand am going by memory. Sorry. That's the best I can do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colterphoto1 Posted June 3, 2009 Author Share Posted June 3, 2009 Thanks Mark, it's making sense to me now. I'm sure there's no substitue for seeing and hearing it all together. It looks like the designer kind of merged the two DX shelves together into one for the XTi. I'm not trying to outguess any engineer, just to understand what's going on with all the PEQs. DX shows LOSLV 2.5k slope 12 gain -2 and also LOSLV 5.4 K slope 12 gain -12 XTi only has one LOSLV at 2.5 slope 12 gain -8 They're all cutting the LF of the HF driver so that's a good thing (in addition to boosting the top end moderatly) 14.8k +6. I don't think you'd want to use a shelving control to implement a huge amount of boost so that seems reasonable. Seeing as how the two LOSLV are both cuts, then end up being additive and choosing the lowest of the two but increasing the cut also seems reasonable. I'm sure it's fascinating watching all this take place on the computer screen as it's being programmed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebse2a3 Posted June 3, 2009 Share Posted June 3, 2009 Could you send me or post the latest XTi settings please? I have the bass bump setting at 32Hz Q2 +7 if that's still correct This is the correct LF extension setting: 32Hz Q12 +7db Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted June 4, 2009 Share Posted June 4, 2009 In the SA software it makes no difference if you program the PEQ first or do the crossover frequencies, or delay, or levels. It can be done in any order. It will come out the same. That's not necessarily true....the transfer function comes out the same, but the dynamic range might not... The general rule of thumb is to boost before cutting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colterphoto1 Posted June 4, 2009 Author Share Posted June 4, 2009 Thanks Mike, it was a typo and now corrected. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted June 4, 2009 Share Posted June 4, 2009 I think I might have misinterpreted Mark's comment....I'm referring to the order of the filters in the DSP. Input vs output EQ and all that shnazz.... As far as the individual filters, I would argue that it makes no sense to listen to just one at a time....it's a balancing act - it doesn't always get progressively better with each filter. I don't know how Roy does his filters, but I start with the shelves and continue from there. It rarely sounds right until the last filter is added....and then it's like everything clicks into place. OK, one more comment.....in terms of driver power-handling, there is zero difference between cutting and boosting. The only concern is dynamic range. Depending on the gain structure, boosting might actually be better..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark1101 Posted June 4, 2009 Share Posted June 4, 2009 Hey Doc.........Let's not confuse Mike. I myself have waited to hear about his Jubilees and it has been a year now. So I hope we are helping him and not confusing him. I did a lot of programming of the XTIs using the SA setup software. My comments are all correct. It makes absolutely no difference whether you program the GROUPS of settings I mentioned in any particular order. However, what you are speaking about is the EQ group of settings. The delay, crossover, gains, and EQ are all separate programmable groups within SA.........AND you are NOT listening to the unit when this is getting done by the way. I'm not even sure what you were talking about. We were trying to create a file that can be sent to the XTI. Have you ever even done this???????? Anyhow, within the EQ group of settings........Mike C.........I still think it makes no difference at all what order you program the EQs. Try it. You can put them in any order and the curve comes out exactly the same. As you can see on the screen the PEQ and shelves are also separated. There are several PEQs and only 2 shelves possible. To avoid confusion.......going over this again...........program all the PEQs first..... THEN.........you have a nice curve on the screen that was creeated as a result of entering the PEQ settings. NOW...........set ANY specified shelf setting and UNDERSTAND how it changes the curve. NOW...........replace THAT shelf setting with another specified shelf setting and UNDERSTAND how that one changes the curve. Repeat until you try all the specified shelf settings. What I am trying to establish is that you find the 2 most influential shelf settings and use those two. You can then program the other groups of settings to complete the setup. Review all the groups of settings when finished. Then you save the file and you are done. You can plug in the USB cable and "connect" and you can send the file. While this is not optimal, unless you have an RTA or other measurement setup to fine tune the EQ manually for your room (which would be better than this process)..........this will get you close to where you want to be. I'm not knocking Roy's settings but by my own measurements they do not produce the optimal FR or sound. They produce a specified performance in an anechoic chamber. In your room.......they do whatever. They get you close. That's all. I always used my RTA setup to tweak..........which was what Roy always said to do.......tweak. So.........this setup should get you close. then you can tweak from there. Dont' be afraid to manually adjust if it doesn't sound right. A/B test with a lascala or Khorn to spot yourself. That can be helpful. Watch the top end of the K69. It needs a big boost. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colterphoto1 Posted June 4, 2009 Author Share Posted June 4, 2009 Thanks Mark, I think what Doc was referring to was that I had a notion to tweak one curve at a time to see if I could tell what each was doing. Probably just an exercise in frustration. I should take them as given, then possibly remeasure and tweak for my room. Keep it Simple is always difficult for me. M Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark1101 Posted June 4, 2009 Share Posted June 4, 2009 So were you able to create the file? Did you connect the USB and transfer the data? Any music yet? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coytee Posted June 4, 2009 Share Posted June 4, 2009 I've got my head out my window... don't hear anything yet...then again, he might be listening to some Ann Murray... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators dtel Posted June 4, 2009 Moderators Share Posted June 4, 2009 Been waiting for this day for a year, Michael has set a new record for buying Jubilee's and not listening to them for a YEAR! [] I know you have plenty of speakers to listen to, but a year, you have way more patience than me. I know you heard them before but not in your room with your music. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted June 4, 2009 Share Posted June 4, 2009 I know you heard them before but not in your room with your music. I thought he was going to add them to his rack'em and stack'em PA rig. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark1101 Posted June 4, 2009 Share Posted June 4, 2009 I'm actually in suspense. Them things need to play. C'mon Mike.........what's up? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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