KHorns vs. Sub-Woofer

[CIGARBUM]

Now you guys got my feeble little brain workin. I do appreciate all the comment and suggestions concerning my plight about getting some KHorns for my downstairs system. It's about split between they will work and no they won't, some suggested using a sub, well. I dug about and found an old sub-woofer I had a long time ago, it's a Infinity Servo Subwoofer - SSW-10, if I rembember correctly it's rated at 100 watts, needs a new surround.

Now, the question being would I be better off getting a pair of KHorns or a sub woofer to supplement to existing Belles. Afew of the guys have heard my systems and the room they are in, need to chime in here. Now I'm not going to say that KHorns sound better that Belles or the Belles sound better than the KHorns, I will simply say they sound different. Depending on what kind of sound you are looking for, myself, I think my Belles sound pretty darn good, but maybe just need a little additional push from the bass side. So if anyone is familiar with the sub I have and can be connect to the MC 275 and C-29, just to try out and see what it does. If the result are favorable, maybe I want to invest in a better sub and not get some KHorns or if it sounds like crap maybe I need to buy some KHorns.

What sh think.

CB

[USNRET]

Ok, I know you and I just discussed this on the phone but I didn't hear the 'invest in a better sub' on the phone. I thought you meant repair and use the one you have. Knowing how you feel about HT and your misguided refusal to give it a try [], my input would be that for the cost of a sub that would enhance YOUR system would be near the cost of a set of KHorns (at a good deal, since you can shop) and if they didn't work out for your abode you could turn the Khorns easier than a sub.

or buy/build a new house

[Colin]

Thank goodness you asked a question for which there is a huge amount of agreement and very little controversy…NOT!

I had Cornwalls, added a sub, then got a more powerful sub, then LaScalas, now Khorns, with an even more powerful sub. The mid and high horns of Belles and LaScalas resemble Khorns. The biggest difference is the huge bass bin. It extends the low frequency response down to the end of the music and movie range.

First and other harmonics in rock/popular music certainly goes as low as 40Hz, where many mid value and high end loudspeakers reach. Forty Hertz is the low not on the bottom string of a bass guitar, which means there are additional harmonics even lower than the initial note. The kick drum makes a 30Hz note and can reach momentary peaks of 120dB! Khorns extend down to 30Hz, which incredibly hard for modest priced loudspeakers to do.

So there certainly is a need for a powerful subwoofer for most modest full-range loudspeakers, including my super-sensitive classic Klipsch corner Khorns. Unless the big ole horns are driven with super-powerful amplifiers. Amplifiers like the Pass X250 have not only low Class A distortion in the first few watts, but plenty of headroom for the massive power hungry bass peaks.

Unfortunately, you have to get a really good and deep subwoofer (most are NOT) to match the depth and the output of big ole horns. Modest subwoofers, retailing up to $1K, intrude on the mid-bass of Belles, LaScalas and Khorns. They muddy the entire sound, low bass and mid-range.

Plus, it depends on what kind of musical affect you are looking for. The problem with the accurate, deep and flat low frequency response of the classic big ole horns, like the Khorns, is that they do NOT have enough mid-bass punch for movies and some forms of music. They are wonderful for orchestral music, where the low booms of the tympani contrast to the sweet sounds of the piccolo and triangles. But today’s techno and action movies require theater-like whallops of bass. They sound more live, real and acoustic in nature, but less like a rock concert.

In the excellent article, “Subwoofers Under the Christmas Tree, “ December, 2001, by Brian Weatherhead, he compares not only the leading Velodyne grand-daddy sub-woofer, but also the Internet-only SVS tubes and the punchy Klipsch KSW and RSW series. The article not only shows their frequency response curves, it also reduces their price to output ratio to something he calls a “shake value.” Very interesting stuff:

1. If you want the mid-bass punch for movies and drums, then according to the wonderful comparisons and charts provided by Weatherford, the powerful Klipsch RSW series would be the best choice. It gives more output in the 83 to 121Hz mid-bass range than any of the other subs compared. It also has the second most output, next to the SVS tubes, in the low 24 to 34Hz area.

2. If you seek the tonal accuracy and mid-range balance that comes from a truly flat frequency response, then the only commercially available sub-woofer that can fill out the big ole Khorn bottom-end are the SVS tubes and the Epik monsters. They are the only subs which go deep enough to make a difference in the low-end bass response. They clearly have the most output in the very deep 13 to 45-Hz range.

3. By the way, the author bought both the SVS and the Klipsch RSW sub-woofer.

6/3/2009

I have heard the SVS tubes with conventional loudspeakers, and while I do NOT have a RSW series sub, I did have the KSW and the ill-fated Klipsch LF10.

[SWL]

Right on Colin. I always use a sub....or subs. They can definitely be a PITA to dial in depending on your room, or not, but what you get in return is well worth it.

[CIGARBUM]

Just ani't no fun if we're not fighting about something. So was that a no to the KHorns and yes to the Belles and sub??????

CB

[nola]

I think Colin said some great things.

If you own Belles, why change. Buy or make some subs (yes DIY) and be done with it. Sub size will also be dictated by the size and harshness of your room.

I bought used beat up LaScalas in 1987, got used pretty KHs in 1988 or 89. KHs require space and corners, etc. In my room, etc, the KHs rock. Would they in your room? How would you get them in, etc. They are big and heavy. But, if someone local has some for sale at a good price, why not?

KHs are not subs !!!!! Barry White on vinyl in 2 ch stereo on KH, great; with subs, orgasmic. Pls don't expect a non large sub to do justice for the space req for KHs. I suspect dual 12"s or 1 or 2 15"s are the minimum you would need (guessing your room is at least 15' x 15'). A DIY 15", 3.5' long 24" diam cylinder could also be a sol'n-much larger than an SVS cyl sub.

Subs: Colin, well said. Pls check out the following:

Official Craigsub rankings thread -over a yr old now-

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=768150

Along with ACI, Epik, SVS, HSU, and PKW Klipsch (I use the RSW 15 in my ave size bedroom), pls keep in mind those listed below incl. eD and av123 (they put the 15" subs on sale last week for about $500 each), and commercial or pro audio subs (dual 18" drivers/cab, which I use in my very large main room).

Hope the advice assists you.

The following is copied from the above link (moderator, feel free to delete the stuff below as PWK products not included):

The scoring summary ...

---

Here is the scoring summary with the Home Theater score and Music score, respectively shown as (HT-M).

Prices and whether the items are available Internet Direct or from a store are now included. Keep in mind that ID pricing will usually be firm, or slightly discounted, where some BM products will see substantial discounts. BM = Brick and Mortar. ID = Internet Direct. ID/SI = shipping included.

Elemental Designs A7-900 ($2200 ID/SI): 116 points (63-53)
Epik Conquest ($1599 ID): 112 points (60-52)
SVS PB13-Ultra ($1499 ID): 109 points (57-52)
Epik Castle ($999 ID): 109 points (59-50)
AV123 MFW-15 Duals: 109 points (56-53) (note, duals were tested as duals are offered as a package)
Creative Sounds Dual SDX-15 driver + Behringer EP-2500 Amp + Behringer DEQ2496 ($1630 ID): 105 points (57-48)
JL Audio Fathom 113 ($3500 BM): 103 points (53-50)
AV123 MFW-15 ($599 ID): 103 points (53-50)
Def Tech Trinity ($3000 BM): 102 points (54-48)
Velodyne DD-18 ($5000 BM): 100 points (50-50)
ACI Maestro ($2400 ID): 97 points (47-50)
eD A5-350 ($715 ID/SI): 96 points (50-46)
JL Audio Fathom 112 ($2600 BM): 95 points (45-50)
Hsu VTF-3 HO + Turbo ($999 ID): 94 points (47-47)
Hsu VTF-3 HO w/o Turbo ($899 ID): 92 points (45-47)
Hsu VTF-3 Mark III + Turbo ($799 ID): 92 points (45-47)
VMPS VSS ($1650 BM and ID): 92 points (45-47)
Epik Valor ($549 ID): 91 points (44-47)
Hsu VTF-3 Mark III w/o Turbo ($699 ID): 91 points (45-46)
SVS PB12-Ultra: 90 points (47-43)
Axiom EP-500 ($1230 ID/SI): 90 points (43-47)
Hsu VTF-2 Mark III + Turbo ($599 ID): 88 points (42-46)
SVS PB12-Plus/2 ($1299 ID): 87 points (47-40)
SVS PB12-NSD ($599 ID): 86 points (43-43)
Hsu VTF-2 Mark III w/o Turbo ($499 ID): 86 points (40-46)
Rocket UFW-12 ($999 ID): 85 points (provisional) (35-50)
Elemental Designs A2-300 ($350 ID/SI): 83 points (44-39)
SVS PB10-NSD ($429 ID): 83 points (43-40)
Dana Audio 600 ($869 ID): 83 points (36-47)
Rocket X-Sub ($199 ID): 78 points (34-44)
BIC H-100 ($229 eBay): 78 points (40-38)
Rocket Tyke: 60 points (If you care, PM me ... )

Pending subwoofers ...

VMPS VSS Powered sub - Early March, 2008
AV123 BMF ... Not sure of date
Epik Knight ... Not sure of Date

*: The Hsu MBM-12 has been tried with several subwoofers here. We found it to be a good room solution, for times when the best placement with a subwoofer for the deep stuff did not necessarily give the best performance in the 50-80 Hz area. We could not come up with a consistent way of scoring it with the other subs, including the VTF-3 HO. Instead, it is suggested to be look at as a possible enchancement to any subwoofer package.

Listening procedures:

All listening us done under blind conditions. The panel of listeners include several very experienced audiophiles, some of whom also design and build high end pro audio speakers. The subwoofers were each placed in the identical room position, and eq'ed to have a fairly flat (3 dB window) response curve from 18 Hz and up, when the subwoofer was able to go that "low".

Measuring procedures: All measurements are taken at 2 meters/GP from the front baffle of a subwoofer. In the case of a ported sub, the microphone is placed so it is 2 meters from the center of the driver(s) and port. The posted measured results are max "clean" 20 Hz output and the average from 20 to 63 Hz. If it seemed like the amp was the limiting factor in output, "AL" is added to the 20 Hz SPL.

The purpose of this information is to help people to quickly look at a variety of subwoofers and get a pair of scores, some performance numbers, and some listening tests describing the characteristics of each subwoofer. Hopefully, this will provide some assistance when researching for a subwoofer purchase. There will be times that a lower rated sub will work better for someone than a higher rated sub. For example, size, or output, in a lower rated sub may make a difference. Listening preferences may also make a difference. If slam is valued over extension, some subs excel at the 30-60 Hz slam. For others, extension will be the most important issue.

1. Elemental Designs A7-900.

Listening results: This subwoofer has almost no weaknesses. It presents everything from the deepest pipe organ and movie bass spectaculars to a hard driving bass guitar with an effortless quality that is the best we have heard to date. On the WOTW machines emerge scene, there was nothing but waves of bass that one felt rolling through the room. The standard Steely Dan 2AN disc was tight, tuneful, and the 18 Hz bass present in this disc was easily felt, yet the upper bass regions were agile.

Measured results ... 20 Hz: 113.5 dB AL ... 20-63 Hz average: 118 dB AL

2. Epik Conquest

Listening results: This subwoofer is hard to distinguish from the A7-900. Once again, pipe organ, the WOTW scene, bass guitar - were all played effortlessly. It is not quite at powerful, nor as visceral, as the bigger eD sub, but it is also an easier sub to live with for some rooms, because it is not quite as large as is the eD.

Measured results ... 20 Hz: 111.5 dB AL ... 20-63 Hz average: 116.5 dB AL.

3a. SVS PB13-Ultra

Listening results: This subwoofer delivers incredible performance from a moderate sized box. It is almost on par with the larger Conquest and eD subs in terms of delivering palpable bass, and it is as articulate as the standard bearer Fathom 113. A great choice when one is looking for a combination of reasonable WAF and performance.

Measured results ... 20 Hz: 108 dB ... 20-63 Hz average: 113.5 dB

3b. Epik Castle

Listening results: Another subwoofer of reasonable size which also gives a terrific performance. It loses some in articulation to the SVS, but also has a bit more authority on powerful movie scenes. It is a solid choice when one wants a large slice of the Conquest/A7-900 performance in a package that is easier to live with.

Measured results ... 20 Hz: 108.5 dB ... 20-63 Hz average: 115.5 dB

3c. AV123 MFW-15

Listening results: Pairing two MFW-15's does exactly what one would expect, it adds a signifigant amount of slam to the areas in which the single unit excelled. What a pair of MFW-15's does above 20 Hz is what makes it the 3rd alternative in the $1500 and under category for excellent performance for the $$$. On music, it is tight, clean and tuneful. It is the other sub combo the brought the Steely Dan 2AN disc to life. On movies, one will experience room shaking bass that is visceral, with the best slam of any subwoofer in its class. It is overshadowed below 20 Hz by the Castle and Ultra, and it will be up to the listener to decide which of the 3 "109 pointers" works best in his system.



4. Creative Sounds DIY Dual SDX-15

Listening results: After carefully adjusting for a proper shelving curve (kudos to Mark Seaton for the tutorial on the 2496), this subwoofer gave a credible performance. The only real downside is that the new Castle from Epik is a superior performer in a smaller package for less money and no labor required.

Measured results ... 20 Hz: 104 dB ... 20-63 Hz average: 115 dB

5a. JL Audio Fathom 113

Listening results: The built in ARO system makes calibration into one's system a snap. The Fathom allows the well heeled audiophile to get an unmatched combination of powerful bass and extension with bass quality that matches the finest monitor speakers, all in a package that will fit in a room of high quality furniture. The panel of listeners was shocked that something so compact could deliver such visceral bass. This is the first subwoofer that delivers on the promise of small size with true subwoofer performance.

Measured results ... 20 Hz: 102 dB ... 20-63 Hz average: 112.5 dB

5b. AV-123 MFW-15.

Listening results: The MFW-15 amazed the panel by largely matching the PB13 Ultra in all musical areas with the exception of pipe organ. Bass is deep, tight and powerful, with no overhang at all. The cabinet work done on this subwoofer is absolultely stellar, especially in its price range. By stellar, we mean just how inert it is. The cabinet barely vibrates during the most powerful passages, and this helps the MFW-15 to get its excellent musical rating. It is, as an earlier graph shows, very linear in its response curve, all the way to 100 Hz. It is in the area of slam an linearity that allows this subwoofer to match more high priced units. The Steely Dan disc on this subwoofer is a bass head's dream, with a lot of the panel requesting to hear it again after the test. Stanley Clarke was also as crystal clear on the MFW-15 as with any subwoofer we have had.

Measured results... 20 Hz - 105 dB ... 20-63 Hz average: 112 dB

[bigrfish]

My HDTV sits across the room from my stereo.

It has an $18.00 Altec Lansing 2.1 speaker system hooked up to it, and is lucky to have that.

[Deang]

"...my input would be that for the cost of a sub that would enhance YOUR system would be near the cost of a set of KHorns (at a good deal, since you can shop)..."

Totally agree with that -- it will take a serious and expensive sub or two to create the high output and low distortion generated by a pair of Klipschorns.

[CIGARBUM]

Nola, do you have any information or know where I can get it for the DIY subs? I need another project, kind of slow up here in the mountains. and I am still keeping my eyes oper for a pair of nice KHorns.

CB

[JJkizak]

My sub reduced several nodes in the living room, flattened response down to 19HZ, and extended my listening experience.

JJK

[seti]

I had a custom made sub with my Belles. It was a package deal. I tried it for a while and ended up with the sub off more often than on. The bass of the belle is nice clean acurate and fast most subs can't match the quality. The belle has such nice bass I'd just enjoy it but nothing wrong with experimentation.

[Coytee]

Just ani't no fun if we're not fighting about something

Shall I try to convince you why you need to hear the Jubilees?

(as they all run for cover)

[:|]

[seti]

Just ani't no fun if we're not fighting about something

Shall I try to convince you why you need to hear the Jubilees?

(as they all run for cover)

Ooooh you said the J word!!!!!!

[Deang]

Shall I try to convince you why you need to hear the Jubilees?

Overrated. You need to take out a second mortgage to buy the best compression drivers -- which you need to salvage the sound from the crappy horns.

The above was created by the Horonzak proxy poster generator.

[Colin]

Off Craigsub’s list of subs, rated by output points (shake value), the AV123 with 103 points at $599 looks like a bargain. Yet his list does not include the Part Express Dayton Titanic Mark III kits. Although they are $750 unassembled, their 15” output is rated at 104db at 20Hz.

[Chris A]

Now, the question being would I be better off getting a pair of KHorns or a sub woofer to supplement to existing Belles...Now I'm not going to say that KHorns sound better that Belles or the Belles sound better than the KHorns, I will simply say they sound different. Depending on what kind of sound you are looking for, myself, I think my Belles sound pretty darn good, but maybe just need a little additional push from the bass side. So if anyone is familiar with the sub I have and can be connect to the MC 275 and C-29, just to try out and see what it does. If the result are favorable, maybe I want to invest in a better sub and not get some KHorns or if it sounds like crap maybe I need to buy some KHorns

Well,

I'm a little surprised that the following subject didn't come up yet: http://www.danleysoundlabs.com/pdf/TH%20Spud%20page.pdf

Note the sensitivity (94 dB) of the TH-SPUD, however the flatness of its frequency response is eye-popping - down to 18 Hz.

Why? Low distortion, guys...that is the hallmark of the KHorn and Jubilee (KPT-KHJ-LF) bass: horn-loaded bass bins that will take you down to sub-30Hz territory if you put them in the right place in the room. Low distortion. It's a big deal if all you listen to is music. (It also makes a big difference with movies, too, but that's another story.)

I haven't heard one of those Danleys yet (and I'm not sure my wife is interested in my listening to one). My guess is unless you are listening to U571 several times a day at "hand volume", this tapped-horn sub will probably satisfy even the most bass-addicted aficionado on the forum, all for a couple of big ones (i.e., $'s) and you're done.

I know that it is ~$Khorns, but this should do ya for your Belles. You can put the Belles almost anywhere you want.

P.S., I'd try the SPUD in a corner instead of sitting on top of it, etc., etc.

Chris

[Chris A]

A follow-up (from Audioholics):

"This single dual 8" driver tapped horn sub blows away any sub or subs I have heard in my room (or anywhere). That would include dual Velo DD-18's, quad JL Fathoms and dual SVS PB-13's. None of these excellent subwoofers produced anywhere near the clean tactile bass that the single THSPUD does...It is too bad that Danley isn't a better marketing company as they really have something here...The Danley THSPUD gets five stars from me. If you ever get the chance to check it out please do."

[nola]

RE: some Qs

AV123 (I have no affiliation and do not own, nor have I ever actually ever heard their subs) has the 15" puppies on sale at 500 each, at least for now. Likely on sale due to hard times.

DIY, Do It Yourself. There are multiple places and even entire forums dedicated to DIY subs on the net. A buddie from the local audio club, who is a speaker and amp builder in his free time, has made a 15" driver, 3.5 ft long 24 inch wide cylinder sub. Combined with his bass shakers on the couch - cowabunga baby, it's the bomb !!! Same is true for my duallie 18"s. The cabinet is 2 x 2 x 4 feet in size. About KH size. As DeanG pointed out, a really good sub will not be cheap. Remember we are trying to match high end and large spkrs. Most people on net forurms are not building subs to match spkrs in our league. An 18" cube box, like the RSW-15 that I own, is probably the minimum size that has any hope matching up against Belles, LaScalas or KHorns. My guess is that many of the high end (knowledge-wise) forum members here are or could be DIYers too.

DIY group might also include folks at moderate to large churches with a high end church choir. Some of their technical people are very knowledgeable and could assist you. Since I am Jewish, no personal clue

Some folks like the semi DIY Dayton stuff at PartsExpress. Also look at MCM electronics, among others, for drivers, parts, etc. But steer clear of anything automotive or marine.

HSU and SVS also have forums (I think). However, the avs forums (per craigsub info) might be a good general starting point.

Builders of amps might also be able to provide some advice.

Danley also makes a ?14' tapped horn. I assume it is awsome, but do not know anyone that has heard it.

I never heard any of my subs before buying (save for the demo of the 18" Behringers). I took the risk, and things seem to have worked out just fine. I bided me time and bought my subs at low cost. Madisons were new, all other subs-like most of my stuff-was bought used.

Your room will really be important - size, harshness, nodes, etc.

Hope this helps.

[ZAKO]

DEAN G,,,,, Just got up from a LONG nap,,, What is a "Horonzak Proxy Poster Generater"???? Taking my name in vain can be debilitating.

[Coytee]

Just got up from a LONG nap

Ahhh... Rumpelstiltskin is back! All is now good with the world.

[Y]