Hifi jim Posted August 21, 2009 Share Posted August 21, 2009 It's not like wire characteristics are drawn to spec on circuit diagrams. Wire is supposed to pass signals unaltered; that's it. If lamp cord of a sufficient gauge sounds the same as monoprice and other cheap solutions, but fancy cable sounds different, then you can bet that it's the fancy wire altering the sound instead of passing it unaltered. It shouldn't. I don't want to use wire as a filter. So then what are the specs of the lamp cord you are using? What should the perfect speaker wire measure? Do you think all lamp cord measures the same? Aside from two amp manufacturers (Naim and Spectral), I know of no other manufacturer that specifies any particular specifications for speaker wire or interconnects. It's a nice thought though. Truth is, it is just another variable like so many others in an audio system. Lamp cord is no more "right" than X, Y, or Z brand of cable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yrtimed Posted August 22, 2009 Author Share Posted August 22, 2009 First of all, thank you all for keeping this discussion alive! Now let me address some of the questions: (1) I do hear difference between cables. (2) I have a new setup, bot Khorns and the amp. The latter is custom-made, and my cost estimation of a similar industrial product would be something around $K10-12 at least. It is made by a very experienced person, with both Khorns and my musical tastes taken into account in the first place (starting from the initial choice of 45'th triodes). (3) I am not talking about upgrading my system at this point. As I said, the whole setup is new, and what I am using now is a temporary solution (a sort of zip cord, if you wish). So, I need to buy a proper cable for my new system for the first time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coytee Posted August 22, 2009 Share Posted August 22, 2009 Hi Yrtimed... I don't know much about the speaker wires, always been rather simple in that department. I would ask/wonder/suggest this though... if you are looking to improve your sound, I'm willing to believe that wires might change the flavor of the sound to a degree. If your Khorns are 100% stock (referring to the drivers & upper horns, not crossover) then I would suggest instead of looking for a subtle change in sound via a wire change, you might find it more rewarding to look into a bigger tweak and change out your midhorn and possibly tweeter. Do a search on Vtrac and read up on what some are saying about the Vtrac. I don't have Khorns anymore but am using larger format drivers and frankly I'd bet you lunch that you'd find a MUCH larger gain in sound from that than the gain you might find in wires (although I agree it would be a more expensive upgrade) Still... do you want to catapult an increase in sound performance or do you want to inch forward with an increase? Greg even allows for an in home demonstration so you can hear it beforehand to decide if you like the change. Vtrac... do a search & read up... do that before you buy any wires That's my suggestion!! Good luck in what ever you do Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coytee Posted August 22, 2009 Share Posted August 22, 2009 Here's the Vtrac demo thread http://forums.klipsch.com/forums/t/118944.aspx?PageIndex=1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dennie Posted August 22, 2009 Share Posted August 22, 2009 I love these Threads! [] Different Strokes for Different Folks! [Y] Dennie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coytee Posted August 22, 2009 Share Posted August 22, 2009 Here's a question for the guys who are a "I can tweek my sound with different wires" AND who have also heard Greg's Vtracs or maybe AlK's Trachorns... The question is... Between swapping out various wires and swapping out for the Vtracs / Trachorns... which one was more of a "OMG" difference? My suspicion would be the Vtrac / Trachorns I'd liken it to perhaps having a good ribeye steak verses a top flight Filet. Quite a difference between the two yet, you can still season each to taste (different wires) no? Or, would you suggest the wire changes were more of an OMG moment than the Vtrac/Trachorn changes? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Richard Posted August 25, 2009 Share Posted August 25, 2009 How about the fuse, through which all the power flows? Of course, now you can get audiophile designer fuses... And on one audiophool site I learned that there were even preferred utility meters with better sonics! The snake oil be a flowin' ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Richard Posted August 25, 2009 Share Posted August 25, 2009 What should the perfect speaker wire measure? Zero ohms, zero inductance, zero capacitance. Ergo, zero reactance. Do you think all lamp cord measures the same? The same gage wires will measure very closely. I don't think that the test equipment I have could differentiate between short lengths (6-8 ft) of similar wire. Truth is, it is just another variable like so many others in an audio system Unless it is a cable designed to have a lot of reactance, it would be a variable that would cause a sonic impact undetectable by almost everybody. Lamp cord is no more "right" than X, Y, or Z brand of cable. And X, Y, or Z brand cable is no more "right" than lamp cord. Lamp cord just happens to be lots cheaper than boutique cables, and available anywhere. Nordost Valhalla speaker cable has: 11.8 pf/ft 9.6 uh/ft 2.6 ohms/100 ft These specs indicate the capability of passing 5 MHz without attenuating the signal significantly. Humans' hearing ends at 20KHz, age dependent. Wire that is 10X worse will still pass 0.5 MHz, 25 times higher than the limits of human hearing. Zip cord is not 10X worse. If I wanted to send 5 MHz RF to a speaker, the Nordost would be a good choice. No loudspeaker can output 5 MHz. Aside from two amp manufacturers (Naim and Spectral), I know of no other manufacturer that specifies any particular specifications for speaker wire or interconnects. Macintosh used to recommend zip cord, and used it in all of their demos at shows. They quit that practice when their dealers asked them to refrain specing wire because it was making it hard to sell expensive cables. There is a lot of profit margin in these products and it was hurting the dealers' bottom line. My bottom line: If you are using boutique cables to "shape the sound", get a decent EQ. They are adjustable, and cheaper than $$ cables. If you simply want a solid, no BS solution to your loudspeaker hookup needs, use stranded copper wire, at least 14 gage. It can be zip cord, twisted pair, or whatever type of construction. Electrically, it just doesn't matter. Really. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Islander Posted August 25, 2009 Share Posted August 25, 2009 It can be zip cord, twisted pair, or whatever type of construction. Electrically, it just doesn't matter. Really. Doesn't twisted pair cable "repel noise"? Supposedly, the magnetic fields generated by the current passing through the wires will oppose each other, cancelling or keeping out any external electrical noise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oblio Posted August 25, 2009 Share Posted August 25, 2009 Another way to look at it (withought the nasty math) is that it makes the two conductors occupy the same average electromagnetic space thereby preventing any induction of external EM interference (e.g. 60 Hz Hum) Important for low level signals but not even Klipsch would pick it up. Might be a good idea if you have a Tesla Coil though. [H] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hifi jim Posted August 25, 2009 Share Posted August 25, 2009 Nordost Valhalla speaker cable has: 11.8 pf/ft 9.6 uh/ft 2.6 ohms/100 ft These specs indicate the capability of passing 5 MHz without attenuating the signal significantly. Humans' hearing ends at 20KHz, age dependent. Wire that is 10X worse will still pass 0.5 MHz, 25 times higher than the limits of human hearing. Zip cord is not 10X worse. If I wanted to send 5 MHz RF to a speaker, the Nordost would be a good choice. Since you mention Nordost Valhalla, I'd ask if you actually auditioned these cables and compared them with zip cord... or is this just a practical (and incomplete) comparison on paper? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark1101 Posted August 25, 2009 Share Posted August 25, 2009 I am using Lowe's 12ga. outdoor low voltage landscape lighting wire for my speaker cables. When stripped back it is exactly the same as any plain old 12ga. speaker wire. It has a black shield on it instead of clear like speaker wire and it cost 12 cents a foot when I bought it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gilbert Posted August 25, 2009 Share Posted August 25, 2009 I wouldn't even imagine spending anywhere near $400-500 for speaker wire but that's just me. What does the Audioquest/Kimber do that this cable doesn't?: http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=102&cp_id=10239&cs_id=1023901&p_id=2789&seq=1&format=2 The copper in the higher priced cables cost more; That's the whole difference in a nut shell..... HOWEVER, what ever floats your boat and sounds good to you, is always what your should buy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Richard Posted August 25, 2009 Share Posted August 25, 2009 Since you mention Nordost Valhalla, I'd ask if you actually auditioned these cables and compared them with zip cord... or is this just a practical (and incomplete) comparison on paper? Why? If I measured 240 VAC on a pair of wires with a voltmeter I would not need to touch these wires to see if I would get shocked. I know that I would. Isn't science wonderful? And more accurate than [bs] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hifi jim Posted August 25, 2009 Share Posted August 25, 2009 Since you mention Nordost Valhalla, I'd ask if you actually auditioned these cables and compared them with zip cord... or is this just a practical (and incomplete) comparison on paper? Why? If I measured 240 VAC on a pair of wires with a voltmeter I would not need to touch these wires to see if I would get shocked. I know that I would. Isn't science wonderful? And more accurate than And then on the other hand, there are numerous speakers that measure the same but sound no where near alike, and then there are amps, and cd players and capacitors and etc., etc. I've never heard an audio system assembled entirely on specs... not sure I'd want to. [] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dude Posted August 25, 2009 Share Posted August 25, 2009 You could spend 25,000 for a 15 foot pair of MIT's I think its what George Lucas use in his test theaters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psg Posted August 25, 2009 Share Posted August 25, 2009 It's not like wire characteristics are drawn to spec on circuit diagrams. Wire is supposed to pass signals unaltered; that's it. If lamp cord of a sufficient gauge sounds the same as monoprice and other cheap solutions, but fancy cable sounds different, then you can bet that it's the fancy wire altering the sound instead of passing it unaltered. It shouldn't. I don't want to use wire as a filter. So then what are the specs of the lamp cord you are using? As I said, they shouldn't have any of significance. I never measured them, nor I am equiped to measure anything fancier than resistance. Note: I don't actaully use lamp cord. Lamp cord is more expensive than monoprice here! What should the perfect speaker wire measure? Zero everything. Passing the signal along, nothing to see here folks. Do you think all lamp cord measures the same? Yes, closely enough for the same gauge size and audio frequencies. Aside from two amp manufacturers (Naim and Spectral), I know of no other manufacturer that specifies any particular specifications for speaker wire or interconnects. It's a nice thought though. Truth is, it is just another variable like so many others in an audio system. Lamp cord is no more "right" than X, Y, or Z brand of cable. It's cheaper. And more right than fancy wire if the fancy wire alters the signal so that you can perceive an improvement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hifi jim Posted August 25, 2009 Share Posted August 25, 2009 It's cheaper. And more right than fancy wire if the fancy wire alters the signal so that you can perceive an improvement. Not sure where you've read or perceived that as truth, but perhaps you should use your ears as this is a hobby based on using what sounds best. If speaker A sounds better than speaker B, than wouldn't you purchase speaker A? And if cable X sounds better than cable Y, wouldn't you purchase cable X? That's how I built my audio systems, and I thought that's how others did it... but I'm seeing a trend towards reading, mathematics and ill fated philosophies rather than listening here. [] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Islander Posted August 25, 2009 Share Posted August 25, 2009 Some cables sound better than others, but what makes it really obvious is when you hook up cables that make your system actually sound bad. I've had that experience, and even after a month, those speaker cables still sounded bad. I went with some bigger and less expensive speaker cables and I'm hearing good sounds through them right now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hifi jim Posted August 26, 2009 Share Posted August 26, 2009 Some cables sound better than others, but what makes it really obvious is when you hook up cables that make your system actually sound bad. I've had that experience, and even after a month, those speaker cables still sounded bad. I went with some bigger and less expensive speaker cables and I'm hearing good sounds through them right now. Agreed. I think you've brought up a good point Islander, like most any component... it's all about synergy. Regardless of price or prestige, cables and components must have synergy with ones system and room. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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