affordable 2-channel...where'd it go?

[jdm56]

It seems like we have a a fairly broad spectrum of price/performance points in the home theater area and the super-duper, high end 2-channel seems to have many options, provided you've got the bucks; but what happened to the affordable 2-channel? It seems to be on the endangered species list. If you want a good stereo receiver, your options are mighty few. Most of what you'll find are aimed more at secondary system status -offices, bedrooms, vacation homes, etc. I think you could count on one hand, the number of stereo receivers on the market that an audiophile would not be embarrased to own. (Actually, I can think of two: the Outlaw RR2150 and H-K 3490. Denon probably a couple, too) And the situation with integrated amps is not much better. Separates? You can almost forget it. Let's name all the sub $500 preamps on the market today...Emotiva and... ... ...well, there's Emotiva anyway. What a far cry from the "good old days" of the seventies! I guess I'm showing my age.

And while I'm ranting, whatever happened to tape monitor's? I know, nobody uses tape recorders anymore, but they are still handy to use as external processor loops. I guess nobody uses equalizers either. BAH...HUMBUG!

What fuels my rant?

I bought an Adcom tuner-pre from an outfit called "Affiliated Electronics" in New Jersey. I was assured by "Boris" I could use my EQ in the tape loop. WRONG! There is no tape "loop". Merely an input labeled "Tape" and an output that carries whatever source is selected. Granted, this arrangement would be OK for a recorder, but not for an equalizer. So I wasted my money...of which Boris wants to keep 25% as a "re-stocking fee". Yeah, right. Restocking his liquor cabinet, most likely. BTW, just in case I still need to say it, I would recommend an extra degree of caveat emptor when dealing with Affiliated Electronics of Hillsborough, NJ.

Rant over.

Have a wonderful evening!

[LarryC]

Boris should certainly have taken it back based on his wrong info, IMO. In my experience, a large reputable co. would also have paid return shipping.

[jdm56]

...which gets back to my rant: There were only 2-3 dealers this component was available that I could find. At least "factory authorized" dealers. What a joke that is. Authorized to do what? ...fleece the customer? Oh well, live and learn.

I guess I'll end up going back to Crutchfield for a NAD C165BEE or to Audio Advisor for a Parasound Halo P3. There's not many other options. I do think I'll take another look at some of those "micro" components from Pro-Ject. They're kind of cool....and I like the Belles Soloist 3 but I don't think it has a tape monitor either.

[Islander]

Yamaha has definitely not forgotten about affordable 2-channel electronics.

Here's a list of their current stereo receivers, including some new models:
http://www.yamaha.com/yec/stereoreceivers/rx.html?CTID=5000600

They also have a series of stereo integrated amps, as well as the flagship MX-D1 500Wpc dual-mono power amp. A number of them even have both MM and MC Phono inputs:
http://www.yamaha.com/yec/separate/integratedamp.html?CTID=5002300

[Groomlakearea51]

Onkyo also has a couple, including a very good quality 2 channel amp that was just released. http://www.onkyousa.com/model.cfm?m=A-9555&class=Amplifier&p=f

I stuck an Onkyo 8555 (previous version of the 9555 listed above) in my sons room (he has my original Klipschorns and my original Heresy's). Now he plays Xbox, watches a DVD every now and then, but I have gone in to check, do dust bunny and connection maintenance etc. When I do I take a reference CD and put it on to see what's happenin', and the 8555 sounds pretty good. Has the tape loop, MM phono input, etc. etc. You can actually "cheat" a little bit with the tape and CD loops as all high level inputs use the same circuitry (150/200mV input/output). You could use the tape loop for an equalizer, and put other "sources" on the tuner, CD and aux inputs.

Every once in a while you can get a "B" stock from them that was returned (usually for a cosmetic issue) for about 50% of the new price. Comes with the warranty, etc. Interestingly.... B stock is not a bad idea. Figure that A stock was assembled and sent to a dealer, then sold, etc. Other than the final assembly check, that was the last time anyone looked at the unit. B stock on the other hand, now goes back and they have to go through everything (again) and do whatever is necessary. As likely as not, a B stock wprobably now has a better history of quality control than the A stock!! And it's certainly been tested!!!

Just a thought.

[H]

[Mallette]

In the 70's, the price point for a fully satisfying, if modest, system was about 500.00. It hasn't changed. Of course, that was all new gear then and now it would be used, but the results are even better.

Takes a bit of skill with Ebay, Craigslist, etc, as well, but the patient audiophool on a budget can have a disgustingly good system.

Consider my second system:

Frazier Model Eleven's=400.00, and came with a classic Soundcraftsman amp, tuner, and preamp, all in NM condition

Rotel TT, Stanton 681EEE, 100.00 from Ebay

Calculated for inflation of currency only (not labor or materials), the Elevens would cost around 10k today and are comparable only to K'horns or better. This system is AWESOME.

Granted, it's the best combo I've made of stuff picked up cheap, but even the other speakers, amps, and such I've purchased are well above the price performance of new stuff.

Dave

[jdm56]

Wow, that new Yamaha 2-channel gear looks nice! ...and a whole lot like their stuff looked thirty years ago, too, which I consider a good thing. It's really good to see them bringing that to market. I hope they have much success with it. Harmon-Kardon has some killer 2-channel that until just recently was available in Europe and Asia but not here. But I did see some pieces online from a US source a few days ago. The star was a 150W/channel integrated with on-board DAC.

[willland]

You want affordable 2-channel with high end quality. Take a look at this. No affiliation.

http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?intatran&1289945765&/Denon-pma-2000ivr-

http://audio-database.com/DENON-COLUMBIA/amp/pma-2000iv-e.html

http://usa.denon.com/US/Downloads/Pages/InstructionManual.aspx

This is a 52lb beast of an integrated.

Bill

[Audible Nectar]

My top "2 channel value picks":

Scott 299 integrated amp (tube)

Nakamichi TA series of SS receivers

Vintage Luxman solid state is very good, too.

In new gear, nothing comes close for the price.

[winchester21]

New gear is a joke. Watch the garage= you will find many killer priced 2 ch gear items. . Every component in my system came from forum members except for my CD players at a fraction of the cost.

I would also add any of several Sansui integrated amps to the above list

[jdm56]

a little update:

I did get the NAD pre-amp. Maybe I'll write a little about it after I've lived with it for awhile. Still waiting for Affiliated Electronics to refund my PayPal account...or at least 75% of it.

I still find it a bit depressing, the change in the audio retailing landscape over the last 30-40 years. From a time when even smallish towns of 40-80,000 people had multiple "audio emporiums" and plenty of music stores selling LP's, cassettes and then CD's, to the scene today where audio has almost disappeared from the scene except the for large cities where BestBuy and the big department stores rule, and a few high-end shops still survive. Many have morphed into custom install businesses, not even having a showroom. If the trend continues, selection will dwindle even more. Product lines will shrink. Shoot, they already have!

There are numerous culprits. Home theater being one of the biggest. Used to, people had a TV, period. And they usually had a stereo that was completely separate. Now they just have a TV and a home-theater-in-a-box. And they're happy. Many don't even have the htib, since wide-screen tv's are all stereo and have built-in speakers. And they can play CD's on their DVD players and in their computers. That's good enough.

The situation isn't quite as bleak on the music retailing end, but it too is in a state of decline, thanks to all the competition from gaming, video and downloads. Seems like most kids these days think music should be free and I guess for a lot of them it is. I don't know how these file-sharing sites stay up and running. I'd think it would be a fairly simple matter to shut them down. But I digress.

I guess the real puzzler to me is this: Do people just not care about quality anymore when it comes to music reproduction. I know kids do still listen to music, or at least mine do, but they seem to prefer listening to their ipods and zunes, and with crappy ear buds. Kids have always driven the pop music market, and today they seem to put a lot of things ahead of music

I know audiophiles have always been a niche within the larger music-loving population. But today that niche is smaller than ever. Weird, weird, weird! I never dreamed it would come to this. In Joplin's BestBuy the other day, the only pure audio products were almost all portable: boomboxes and i-pods basically. I think I saw one turntable, one CD recorder and one CD changer. Maybe one or two cheap two-channel receivers. So apparently, in Joplin, MO, a town of about 50,000 people and the metropolitan center of populace of probably three times that, there is literally no place to buy quality audio other than special order from a custon installer. And that without seeing or hearing it first. What a situation.

I hope things can swing back the other way at some point soon. Some of the new affordable 2-channel gear mentioned in this thread is encouraging at least. But will it ever get back to being comparable to what it was like in the "good old days" of audio? Probably not in my lifetime. Oh well, I guess I'll go fire up some tunes and plop down in the sweet spot and "and just drift away".[]

[fini]

Doug, I agree with Chris (Winchester). Used is the way to go, if one is looking for bargains. I could go tomorrow to my local thrift store and be 90% sure I could walk away with a "decent" CD player and amp (receiver, etc.). Good speakers or a decent turntable, maybe not so much. I mean, something that would beat the pants off an mp3 player (not too hard to do). I understand your frustration, though. Back in the "good ol' days" (not even all that long ago) there were WAY more audio-only, "stereo" shops. I remember having tons of fun perusing the latest hifi offerings. Of course, I have always been about "the deal," so second-hand gear has always been my friend. Shoot, with the deals I've scored I could have put together a system consisting of a Kenwood KD-500 turntable (with an infinity Black Widow arm, fitted with a Shure V15), a Nakamichi SR-3A receiver, and Heresys for under $75! Exchange the Kenwood for a Thorens 124 (with an Ortofon RS-212), and the system would have cost me around $250. Yeah, these weren't every-day bargains, but the point is, the deals are out there. Fewer in number than even a couple years ago, but they're still out there. Of course if I were to value my time searching for this stuff at the rate I usually make as a journeyman carpenter, I probably paid way more than the going rate on eBay, but I had fun doing it. Of course, one has to have local outlets from which to purchase these gems. I know I've drifted off subject (you weren't complaining about how much equipment cost, but about the availability locally of these products). Sorry.

Let's see, where was I.....? Oh yeah, Go Giants!

[Don Richard]

I walk into an electronics store and the door matron asks what I might need.

"I'm looking for a stereo receiver"

"Come this way" and she led me to the home theater section of the store.

She started telling me about the various 5.1 and 7.1 systems they sold when I interrupted her.

"I'm not looking for this type of stuff, I just need a stereo receiver"

"These are stereo receivers", she said.

"No they are not, they are surround sound receivers for A/V systems", I replied

"Well, they will play stereo discs"

"Not really", I said. "Do you have a plain 2 channel stereo receiver?"

"They don't make those any more"

Of course there still are two channel receivers still being made, but the electronics stores have just about quit stocking them. Consumer electronics manufacturers typically have only a couple of 2 channel models available, and they are usually sold as bottom of the line equipment. Low priced equipment means low profits so the stores quit pushing 2 channel for the most part. So much so that some of the salespeople are apparently unaware that 2 channel gear is still made.

[jdm56]

Yeah, I know there is still good 2-channel stuff out there on the pre-owned market. My only access to that is the internet, which is fine. And I have got some good deals. But even that market will gradually dry up if the new retail keeps dwindling at the rate it has. Maybe we're headed "back to the future" where hi-fi will mostly be home-brew like in the earliest days of the hobby when there was practically no ready-to-wear audio gear out there. You rolled your own or you stayed home. That might not be such a bad scenario, actually!

Regarding the knowledge level of 2-channel audio in mainstream retailing, yes it is definirely a joke. Of course, it always seemed to me their knowledge of what they were selling was pretty limited in all areas. (No offence: I know there are exceptions!) Of course, I don't claim to be an expert at anything, but still it would be nice if a salesperson knew what a tape monitor was and how it was supposed to work.

Oh well, I guess I'm just showing the early signs of "grump old man" syndrome. In the over all scheme of things, I guess it's not really anything to get my knickers in a twist about. The gear I have today would probably last me the rest of my life if I need it to. At tleast if I don't last too far beyond the "three score and ten" of the bible!

[jacksonbart]

In the 70's, the price point for a fully satisfying, if modest, system was about 500.00. It hasn't changed. Of course, that was all new gear then and now it would be used, but the results are even better.

While I 100% agree the industry has turned its focus off of stereo to support HT, $500 in 1975 will cost you a few dollars shy of $2000 in 2009.

So I think you will have more choices if you raised the price point a bit.

[winchester21]

You beat me to the punch on the Ht issue. HT- surround or whatever has totally ruined 2 channel- agreed-.maybe I am a little picky with my 2 channel sound but the HT receivers are not made to reproduce proper 2 channel sound. The "CD" mode on most HT receivers is an abomniation. I spent a ton of money trying to buy one system to do both... aint gonna happen. I mixed heritage and reference- tubes and SS- drove my self crazy thying to do both- ended up selling a lot of stuff and building 2 systems sharing only a set of front K horns as a common component.

But the light at the end of the tunnel is this- 2 ch- you can start small and cheap and still have great reuslts- sell and upgrade as funds allow. The used items on the garage are not has been junk- very serious audiophile pieces at yesterdays prices. The used SS mac stufff is a good starting point. The Scott and Fisher tube amps are world class pieces by anybodys standards. Yes - HT and SS junk has dealt a blow to the consumer market 2 channel landscape

but come hang out with us in the garage section of this forum. You be amazed at what you can have for pennies on the dollar.I have maybe 7500 invested in a very used top of the line system with vintage components. I t murders stuff costing several times the price. When I was at say 2500- same situation. Just takes a little patience