Question on organ donation (as in body parts...) legal type question

[Coytee]

Scenario: My wifes sister & her husband just left us yesterday to go home. They stopped by here last week on their way to Memphis. Long story short, his 22 year old nephew passed away under some very unfortunate circumstances. He was heading to Marine boot camp in a while so he was in excellent condition AND was evidently seeing some kind of Marine "trainer" (for lack of better word) each week to make sure he was going to arrive at boot camp in good condition. Because of the application to the Marines, he had to decide if he was willing to be an organ doner and he was. He signed the forms.

Fast forward to a couple weeks ago. He's had headaches for several weeks, the doctors send him home. The emergency room sends him home. He even said something like 'this is not a common headache' and one of the doc's suggested he might want to see a Psychiatrist. He went to bed one night and they found him in a coma the next morning. Got him to the hospital and he had diminishing brain activity....soon to be zero brain activity.

The family was agonizing over this as might be expected. They decided they had to pull the life support and did so. This is where it gets weird (realize I'm hearing this 3rd person so I can't vouch that any of this is 100% accurate)

Seems the body part harvesters were hanging out near his room. Apparently, the word gets out to the collectors of parts when someone is near death. They were so abrasive that they were actually waiting INSIDE the room waiting for him to die. The father of the boy ended up escorting them OUT of the room trying to keep some dignity in their last moments with his son.

The story told to me is one of these folks simply turned right back around and marched back into the room. This is when the father/family essentially blew up at them telling them that if they did not get the )_#$*#@)_ out of here, that they were not going to get ANY body parts.

This is when the DOCTOR said something to the effect of "you might want to reconsider that since your son has already signed his intent to donate his parts.... they would (might?) have some legal recourse and could sue you"

The family was a bit stunned that it was the Doctor who was essentially, defending the parts retrievers. The father evidently told them that he didn't care if they did sue him.... they were going to get OUT of his sons room and that was that.

Obviously, this was an emotional time for all involved. I do not know many of the details. My wifes sister & her husband talked about this on Saturday. The upshot of their comments would be they are now under the belief (fear?) that if you sign these donor forms, that the 'system' has the rights to your body on your demise and any control at the end is taken away from the family.

I made a quick comment that rather than perhaps the person signing their parts away, they might instead, give that authority to their survivors. (I don't even know if you can do it that way). Had this boy given his parents his desires and given them the authority then it seems the snatchers might have been a bit more respectful of this tragic situation instead of being so abrasive.

So, does anyone know if this family could have legally stopped the body snatchers since their son did in fact sign organ donation forms for the Marines?

As for "the rest of the story", it seems the boy had a severe sinus infection. It progressed to a brain abcess. Evidently, a brain abcess is rare in the developed world AND if caught soon enough, is pretty easy to cure with some antibiotics??

http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/000783.htm

Very unfortunate

[justin_tx_16]

My partner is a transplant coordinator for california hospitals. I'll forward this on and see what I get if you like.

So sorry about your loss.

[Coytee]

Cool. I'd be interested to hear what someone 'in the biz' has to say. I never knew this boy so other than the unfortunate circumstances.... I don't have any emotional attachment. Your thoughtful comment is appreciated though.

[dtel]

I am 100% for organ donation but that sounds crazy. There is no reason for them to be in or outside the room, it's the doctor who decides when they pronounce the person dead. So to me it should all be done behind the scenes after the person is actually dead, if they put them on something to make the parts usable at that point the family should be told whats going on, I think that would be a little more reasonable.

I have no idea how it works but that just sounds wrong. Legaly I would ( guess ) the parents and patient should have some rights, at least while he is still alive.

[Coytee]

Well Dtel, this is why I'm bringing this up.

The implication in this circumstance is that the 'powers that be' seem to have certain rights. Since there is a time issue from moment of death to harvesting parts, I can intellectually appreciate their desire to act quick.

What struck me as strange is the suggestion that they had just as much authority to be there as the family. Furthermore that the family could not change his final wishes (I don't know if they can or can't)

If someone is actually relinguishing their body at moment of death and the family has ZERO say in the matter....then I wonder if it's more prudent for doners to instead, give their family the instruction as to what to do rather than to preplan it.

Given the story as told to me, if it was the family that had to give permission (and therefore had the right to take that permission away) then the harvesters would have presumably been MUCH more sensative to the moment instead of simply "doing their job".

Evidently, this really creeped out my wifes sister and her husband. Not to mention it offended the entire family in the hospital room.

[Cal Blacksmith]

WoW, I may need to re-think my donor card. It took me fifty five years to decide to do it and if that is the way the family is treated, I will leave any choice to them and let the vultures hang.

I will be following this thread with interest.

[mark1101]

Well I guess we need to read the military organ donation forms the kid signed. My drivers license says I'm an organ donor. I made that choice many years ago. I sure hope that they at least wait till I kick before the vultures swoop in.

[JJkizak]

There is very big money involved in organs. I always wondered why the immediate family didn't get any money for them whereas the organ handlers and the doctors make out like bandits. Like signing and oil/gas lease on your property---you get almost nothing and the oil company gets almost everything.

JJK

[Coytee]

WoW, I may need to re-think my donor card. It took me fifty five years to decide to do it and if that is the way the family is treated, I will leave any choice to them and let the vultures hang.

I'm presuming that this was more of an exception than the rule (at least I hope so). It did however, seem to me that the quick/easy way to correct this going forward is to give the authority to the family such that they can rescind it if they received the same abuse that seemed (<--carefully chosen word) to happen here.

I've told my wife that I don't really care what happens to me when I'm gone. She can donate my body.... they can have my parts... she can creamate or bury me... feed me to the fish... I think once the person is gone, the body is just a carcas.

Aside from that, I know it's a big business and I personally think it's a shame that it's an organ 'donation' and the family doesn't get anything. I think the family should get some form of compensation unless the organs were specifically directed towards someone (like I understand you can do with blood donations??)

[colterphoto1]

WoW, I may need to re-think my donor card. It took me fifty five years to decide to do it and if that is the way the family is treated, I will leave any choice to them and let the vultures hang.

I will be following this thread with interest.

yikes, ditto here.

[oscarsear]

I'd have to wonder why any private organ harvester people were even in that clinical setting. The place should have had personnel whose job it is to coordinate organ donations. They typically do not go to the highest bidder but to those most in need. As far as I know hospitals do not 'sell' live organs willingly 'donated'. Insofar as putting family in charge of such decisions that is quite impractical because of the timing involved. The particular decision maker would have to be there at the right time or the donation would fail. I suppose a more specific form of an 'advanced directive' (aka living will) would work whereby the donor clearly defines which organs and how they are to be distributed. Now as to dead tissue it maybe a different situation. Skin, bone and certain eye structures can be taken postmortem and I am uncertain how they are managed.

[oscarsear]

Another issue is the legal ownership of the decedent. I recall an issue where a particular persons donated DNA was so special that it ended up being the subject of much legal wrangling because of its potential value. Wait and see, if we eventually can profit from selling off chunks of dead relations they will most certainly tax the income.

[Mighty Favog]

I'm in the legal biz and I would say that seeing that son was of sound mind when he signed the papers. The "harvesters" do have a right to them. This is not saying the father cannot go and apply for an injunction to overturn the document. Not saying he would get it but it would be a course of action. Since time is critical in this matter, it would have to be done almost beforehand.

However...since they were hanging around the room like literal vultures, there could be a legal case there. But I would not think that depriving the harvesters of the organs entirely would be a legal action.

[Coytee]

I would say that seeing that son was of sound mind when he signed the papers

Yep, as far as I know, he was.

The "harvesters" do have a right to them

Here's a question for you.... if I agree to donate my (insert something) to Goodwill or someone other, at my demise, does this now fall under contract law?

I would think that if I agreed to donate my Jubilee's to...say, yourself upon my demise and my wife decided later on that she as my executrix didn't feel that was appropriate disposition of them (she'd rather see them burn []) is she compelled to give them to you? Would it matter if that was a line item in a Trust or Will? Would it HAVE to be a line item?

Does that situation parallel this at all?

If someone agrees at the DMV to be an organ donar (via drivers license), then just who is the contra party that has all the rights to the parts? The DMV? (nope). Is it what ever hospital you might expire in?

Just to throw some spagetti on the walls (stupid ideas for conversation sake) what if I have STRICT convictions about abortions, drinking or blonde nurses giving me shots and because it's closer, I find myself in a hosptial that gives abortions, drinks and only has redhead nurses... [] If I was cantankerous enough to think "I don't want these people to have my parts because I have strong convictions about some of their practices" however, unfortunately, I'm on my last breath.... tough? The redhead nurse has access to my parts instead of the blonde nurses?

I know you are not dispensing legal opinions and feel free to ignore anything that makes you feel uneasy. I'm just finding this to be an interesting circumstance and thought I'd bring it up. I don't want to seem like I'm painting you or anyone into a corner (except for perhaps Dtel....he can take his hiney and plant it on his MWM's.... he might need a medium sized planter though! [] [:^)])

[Mighty Favog]

You have some very good questions there...

If, for instance, you did pass away and your wife didn't want me to have the jubes, she can file a complaint with the Probate Court in your area and explain why to the judge there. The judge (or possibly jury if it goes that far) would decide where they go. There is the possibility of representing yourself pro se but you better have your wits about ya and ALL your ducks lined up. The reason is that the other side may just go out and hire an attorney (or a group of them). If that's the case and you have to go out and hire one too, you mave to sell the jubes (if you win them) just pay the atty fees.

But the short of it is that Probate Court would be your next step.

[Jay481985]

My next door neighbor is a transplant doctor at Columbia Medical. I would ask her about this but currently she is finishing up her residency in New Zealand for a year. I will email her the question though. I have though worked in the field a bit and know that time is very important to prevent necropsy. I believe the heart is no longer viable after 7 minutes if it is not cooled down. Other organs may last longer but not by much. Remember that every second you are alive your body is fighting off death and the elements of death. Another example is how people are braind dead after not receiving oxygen for even 3 minutes when they are under water. The brain is like any other organ and when you pass the blood stops flowing and deprives the organs the oxygen it needs. That is why organs need to be harvested very quickly. I think this situation was the lack of compassion though. I think if the parents were educated on what needs to happen there would be less of a problem.

[justin_tx_16]

I'm in the legal biz and I would say that seeing that son was of sound mind when he signed the papers. The "harvesters" do have a right to them. This is not saying the father cannot go and apply for an injunction to overturn the document. Not saying he would get it but it would be a course of action. Since time is critical in this matter, it would have to be done almost beforehand.

However...since they were hanging around the room like literal vultures, there could be a legal case there. But I would not think that depriving the harvesters of the organs entirely would be a legal action.

I asked and this is what he said. Of course he also prefaced this explaining that the law in these types of situations changes state to state, that this is how it would most likely work out in the state of California.

The contract signed by the patient prior to admission was as legal as any other contract. It is treated as such. Anyone trying to prevent the legal actions are in the wrong, legally speaking. Whether the harvesters were at the door or not doesn't matter, legally. They had every right to be there, in the room or outside the room. Even with a Power of Attorney, the father would have no right to prevent the harvesting of the organs as it was the father (or family) that ultimately decided to pull the plug.

It was that decision that gave the harvesters the legal right to be in the room, or in the hallway. In these situations, every single minute counts especially with particular organs.

In the heat of the moment, it is understandable that emotions were high and a courtesy should have been made for the family. Organ harvesters and anyone in the transplant business with direct contact with patients or family are required to complete intense sensitivity, psychology and greif training.

I wish things could have been different. It does appear that the organ harvesters were not legally doing anything wrong, while preventing them to do their job would actually be an action which could qualify for legal ramifications by the donor network. Though it is unlikely that it would ever have gotten to that point.

I have a personal connection to this situation as a previous emergency room trauma registration specialist, living with a paramedic, now transplant coordinator. I've seen these situations play out before and it is truly heartbreaking. I will never forget the first patient that I registered that died and the affect it had on me. All I did was register the patient. But when I went in there, she was alive. 45 minutes later, she wasn't.

Seeing this day-to-day must be incredibly traumatizing, these transplant coordinators have to regulate their emotions to make sure they do their job 100% correct. There might be five other lives at stake should they not get organs to a patient in time.

My partner's biggest issue with the job is the amount of time, or lack of time, they are provided. Things move at an incredible pace and to miss a single step could spell the waste of yet another life.

[Coytee]

he also prefaced this explaining that the law in these types of situations changes state to state

Justin (and all), thanks for the comments. You explained it just how I presumed it would end up to be (time critical type stuff). That's the end of my quesitons regarding any decisions or actions taken by the family and I'm essentially done.

Your comment above did however raise another question in me. As obvious as it is (different laws in different states), I immediately wondered then what would happen if I signed the forms in my state but died while on vacation in another state with different laws...

I would imagine that these front line people (harvestors) have an incredibly difficult and touchy job. I'd imagine they are in a position to receive flack at both ends of the spectrum. In the final stages of someones life and the other side who insists they never get the parts quickly enough.

What a spot to be in.

[djk]

China Daily reported in August 2009 that approximately
65% of transplanted organs still came from death row prisoners.

You can buy a kidney for about $60K.

A doctor that sought asylum in Canada claimed to have harvested organs from over 100 'donors', some that were still alive.

A science fiction story I read about 40 years ago suggested that a serious trafic offence merited the death penalty, and thus made the organs eligable for harvesting. I wonder how small of a crime will earn you 'donor' status in China, especially if you're a tissue match.

[oscarsear]

Justin.......... Since most hospitals are in control of their own facilities how can these 'harvesters' gain physical access without authority? What you are saying is that they show up at the door with a copy of the donor 'contract' which apparently avails them unfettered access. Are they agents? Can they be independents? For example, if I knew a person was a donor and learned they were in a 'donating' circumstance, could I show up and barter for the viable organs? Is there an organ donor list I can purchase on-line so I can be all set to grind out a deal for a kidney? Is this how low organ donation has become?